Lies point us to the truth #2

[Case Cracker]

JonBenet was the victim of three violent crimes in a matter of hours. Around these atrocities an elaborate staging was constructed. Part of this involved a bizarre RN. The motivation for the enormity is obscure.

All of this is enough to consider. The over-all arc of what occurred on Christmas night is the main focus.

Exactly Proust, 3 violent crimes and the ramseys claimed to of slept through it all while Burke stated he could hear the fridge door down the kitchen whenever someone opened it from his bedroom on the second floor. The parents claimed Jonbenet was zonked out when they got home and put her straight to bed. John in his interview even claimed to struggle getting her out of the car and carrying her asleep upstairs to her bed. Yet Burke states on Dr Phil he saw jonbenet walk in and walk upstairs.

 

[Case Cracker]

Yes, I see no reason it wouldn't work. The spiral staircase is the closest descent from JonBenet's room and doesn't take her close to Burke's room or right beneath the parents. believe an intruder came in, got a 6 year old out of her bed and somehow carried this girl of her size struggled twisting and turning down a narrow winding staircase. Have you ever tried walking down one FerusMcDuck? If not, try and find one and walk down it, it can be a challenge in its self let alone trying to carry a 6 year old child down one. Friends of mine have one in their house and it was an absolute eye opener when I tried it out. Pasty apparently walked down it that morning ( in darkened light?) and skipped the rung with

Yes, I see no reason it wouldn't work. The spiral staircase is the closest descent from JonBenet's room and doesn't take her close to Burke's room or right beneath the

the ransom note on it? Try it out yourself.

Yes, seriously. The pictures were taken after several days, and mold doesn't grow on a schedule, but depends on the surface, the temperature and the environment. It can appear after only a day, or it can not appear at all.

Who are the others stating there was milk or cream in it? I have looked all over, but can't find anyone. Not Steve Thomas, not Lawrence Schiller, not anyone involved in the actual case. There's no mention in any police or expert reports. If you have any source for this, I'd be delighted, but just like the idea that Patsy or the kids liked or served this dish, it appears to be a

Yes, seriously. The pictures were taken after several days, and mold doesn't grow on a schedule, but depends on the surface, the temperature and the environment. It can appear after only a day, or it can not appear at all.

Who are the others stating there was milk or cream in it? I have looked all over, but can't find anyone. Not Steve Thomas, not Lawrence Schiller, not anyone involved in the actual case. There's no mention in any police or expert reports. If you have any source for this, I'd be delighted, but just like the idea that Patsy or the kids liked or served this dish, it appears to be a myth.

11 LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the
12 picture so we'll want a close up of everything.
13 This is a photograph of 417. what does that
14 represent there?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not
16 a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I
17 guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But
18 it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to
19 make it old and there's this teabag in an empty
20 glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is
21 some milk or something.
22 LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat
23 pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple,

According to police files none of the Ramseys friends or any member of the Ramsey family had any idea who prepared or served the tea. During the investigation, the crime lab found Patsy and her ten year old son, Burke's fingerprints on the bowl and Burke's on the glass of tea, adding to the mystery."

Henry Lee (Forensic Scientist): "Another area I'm always curious is whether DNA on the glass and on the bowl and particular the spoon, not only the eating area but also the handle."

 

[Case Cracker]

Yes, seriously. The pictures were taken after several days, and mold doesn't grow on a schedule, but depends on the surface, the temperature and the environment. It can appear after only a day, or it can not appear at all.

Who are the others stating there was milk or cream in it? I have looked all over, but can't find anyone. Not Steve Thomas, not Lawrence Schiller, not anyone involved in the actual case. There's no mention in any police or expert reports. If you have any source for this, I'd be delighted, but just like the idea that Patsy or the kids liked or served this dish, it appears to be a myth.

----------
The pics wernt taken several days later .....On A Candy Rose...For the record, the famous white bowl in which pineapple was found in crime scene photos taken after the morning of December 26th 1996 on the breakfast room table appears on the same table during the party on December 23rd when the Ramseys were hosting a gingerbread-house assembly for friends and children.

 

[Case Cracker]

I linked to a video in my earlier comment, and if that was the spiderweb in question it was a lot smaller and avoidable than I would have guessed from the comments.



I personally don't believe the killer left through the window, so that doesn't matter to me.



Actually, she says she picked up the broken glass and had Linda sweep and/or vacuum down there.





Linda originally stated that she didn't remember:





You mean the white mold on top?



That depends on how far back they looked. Leopold and Loeb wrote a ransom note that was 310 words long (compared to the Ramsey note at 353) for a kidnapping of a child in 1924. The content and tone is similar to the Ramsey note. Also, just like in the Ramsey case, Leopold and Loeb killed the child immediately. They had always intended to do so.

I must look it up although 1924 its barely relevant. I've read a number of times John ramsey had the book mind hunter beside his bed. The type of Movie posters in the house caught interest as parts of the ramson note were likened to what happened in those movies.

 

[Case Cracker]

Yes, seriously. The pictures were taken after several days, and mold doesn't grow on a schedule, but depends on the surface, the temperature and the environment. It can appear after only a day, or it can not appear at all.

Who are the others stating there was milk or cream in it? I have looked all over, but can't find anyone. Not Steve Thomas, not Lawrence Schiller, not anyone involved in the actual case. There's no mention in any police or expert reports. If you have any source for this, I'd be delighted, but just like the idea that Patsy or the kids liked or served this dish, it appears to be a myth.

I've posted the area of Lou Smits interview re pineapple and milk. Nowhere can I find anyone stating the pineapple had white mould instead of milk.

 

[Case Cracker]

Yes, that was stated in Lawrence Schiller's book. The victim advocates went out to get "bagels and fruit". We then see a setup with bagels on a plate, and a bowl with fruit and a serving spoon.



If one of the children wanted to eat it, I'd question them grabbing any of the utensils. Dumping all the pineapple in a bowl and eating with an oversized spoon seems less likely to me than just eating out of the container, especially if this was some secret night snack (as it would have to be).

The thing about fingerprints is that they don't appear as often as we think, and when they do they are often partial or smudged. I don't think we can judge anything from their abscence, nor do I think we can judge much from prints being present on household objects from the family living there. If there were Ramsey prints on the flashlight, though? Or maybe even on the baseball bat.



I absolutely agree, and I hope the cold case team can do something here.

With regards to the Stun Gun, forensic pathologist Michael Doberson who had done work with stun guns on pigs for a case in 1994, was convinced the marks on JonBenet were "most consistent" with a stun gun. Also this:




Beckner was asked about several aspects of the case. When questioned about whether a stun gun was used on JonBenet as had been reported in the months after the murder, Beckner said that wasn't true.



"Stun gun -- no. The coroner and others who looked at the abrasion did not believe it came from a stun gun. The distance between the two marks did not match the probes of any stun gun we found. Stun guns are loud and hurt like crazy -- which would have probably elicited some screaming. That probably would have woke someone up."
That was a hypothesis from the experts' examinations. I don't think it was ever proven to be so, though I personally find it likely.





Patsy almost died of cancer not long before JonBenet's murder. I don't find it weird that she was hyperobsessive over her children's health. I don't know about the records - a lot of that is pretty murky, with what the police got and what they didn't.



Sorry, still don't see a connection. As I recall, the tape was produced fairly close to the murder.



I'd appreciate it. I've been digging around for a long time and coming up empty.

Beckner was asked about several aspects of the case. When questioned about whether a stun gun was used on JonBenet as had been reported in the months after the murder, Beckner said that wasn't true.

"Stun gun -- no. The coroner and others who looked at the abrasion did not believe it came from a stun gun. The distance between the two marks did not match the probes of any stun gun we found. Stun guns are loud and hurt like crazy -- which would have probably elicited some screaming. That probably would have woke someone up."

We have also seen in the CBS documentary, where they carried out a demonstration with what occurs when a stun gun is used on a person. They don't fall asleep and then someone can carry them away in silience. It hurts like hell and the victim soon after would be making noise if nit screaming the house down. The makers of these stun guns stated the marks wernt from their guns also the distance wasnt exact hence Smit saying ...it's a close match . The train track ends were far more of a closer match in size ...foreign faction James kolar. Also the mark on jon benets face has an interesting pattern to it when you enlarge a clear picture of it. Almost like a military button pattern in moo. Some have stated it looks like a ring.

Timing, not so much, just showing that the bowl was in use. Also, I don't think emptying the dishwasher as a chore (for example) is incompatible with being a messy child. Truth is we don't know when the prints made it to the bowl.



Here are stills showing the bagels. I can't find the video itself online.



And my point is that it is far from certain that she was. She was certainly assaulted the night of her death, that is undeniable.



Burke didn't know. He was listing hypotheticals, because no one had told him how she dies. He said she might have been hit in the head with a hammer, but also that she might have been stabbed.

I truly don't see how an extra pony tail indicates anything.



From what I can see, those weren't big spider webs, also there were packing peanuts pushed to the side in the window well (Lou Smit remarked on that).

As for the Pughs not noticing a broken window, I don't think we have enough details to make a judgment either way. Linda didn't remember cleaning glass, and they "supposedly" washed the windows around Thanksgiving (which may or may not have included the basement windows).



Poking would not produce abrasions like the ones on JonBenet, which were similar to those produced by stun guns, as I showed in the picture earlier.

The tape coming from the doll is something I've never heard of. I suppose it's as good a guess as any.



Not doubting you, but where did John say he did that? I've been looking through interviews and transcripts and haven't found it.



And that would make prosecution impossible.

 

[Case Cracker]

Yes, I see no reason it wouldn't work. The spiral staircase is the closest descent from JonBenet's room and doesn't take her close to Burke's room or right beneath the parents.

FergusMcDuck...have you ever tried walking down a home spiral stairway the size of the Ramseys? My friends had one in their house, how enlightening it was walking down it. Immediately it struck me just how difficult it would be maneuvering down one in low light let alone the added challenge of carrying a 6 year old child down it as well.

 

[anonymiss]

Exactly Proust, 3 violent crimes and the ramseys claimed to of slept through it all while Burke stated he could hear the fridge door down the kitchen whenever someone opened it from his bedroom on the second floor. The parents claimed Jonbenet was zonked out when they got home and put her straight to bed. John in his interview even claimed to struggle getting her out of the car and carrying her asleep upstairs to her bed. Yet Burke states on Dr Phil he saw jonbenet walk in and walk upstairs.

I was watching former police officer Maims on YouTube discussing the case, he thinks BDI and PR wrote the RN to cover for him. Maims was reading viewers comments on his Ramsey videos and one suggested that electric usage records that night might prove if the Ramsey's were up during the attack or slept through it, he said that was a genius thought which never occurred to him in all the years he's been looking into this case. I remember electric usage was brought up on this forum a few years back, it's not a new idea to help solve this case, and I wonder if LE thought about checking the records after JBR was killed.

 

[Case Cracker]

I was watching former police officer Maims on YouTube discussing the case, he thinks BDI and PR wrote the RN to cover for him. Maims was reading viewers comments on his Ramsey videos and one suggested that electric usage records that night might prove if the Ramsey's were up during the attack or slept through it, he said that was a genius thought which never occurred to him in all the years he's been looking into this case. I remember electric usage was brought up on this forum a few years back, it's not a new idea to help solve this case, and I wonder if LE thought about checking the records after JBR was killed.

Exactly, they could of seen when a power consumption rose during that nite ( maybe they do have that & didnt rease that info publically) Burke admitted on Dr Phil he not only saw jonbenet walk into the house that night and head up the stairs ( despite both parents stating she was zonked out and John struggled to get her out of the car and carried her alseep up to her room) but also Burke stated he got up during the night and went downstairs. He was extremely lucky he didn't come into contact with the intruder...what are the chances??

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Denials of the timeline and even denials of actual evidence, such as the autopsy, is an all too common approach by the Rs to divert attention from difficult questions, e.g., Who knew about the extra size 12s and where to find them?

Irrelevant if she was wearing them the whole previous evening.

Why would intruder(s) put tape over JonBenet"s mouth after death?

If that's what they did. There has never been a report on this, as far as I know, just impressions by police that looked at it. I could be wrong, of course.

How did Patsy's fibers become enmeshed in the ligature fashioned with her own paintbrush?

"Patsy's fibers" is a misnomber - they're fibers of the same kind of material as her jacket - but another question is why only the red fibers from the checkered red-and-black coat ended up on the scene.

What was the business meeting in GA that John wanted to fly out to after finding JB?

What business meeting? As far as I can tell, this was just another myth. Schiller writes that John told an officer he was flying to Atlanta and he had something important to attend to. That's not a "business meeting", and I can think of some major matters to deal with when you've lost your child.

The Maglite was recognized by LHP, and others. JAR knew he gave it to them. Why would the Rs at first try to squirm out of this admission? Did the intruder(s) wipe its batteries clean?

It looked similar to the one they had. I don't see the big deal with the maid or others getting them confused.

Burke's fingerprints were also on the glass with tea next to the bowl. He introduced the knife into the events in his interview with Dr. Bernhard. ("I know what happened.") He demonstrated whacking JB on the head.

A knife wasn't used. Neither was a hammer. Burke knew JonBenet had been killed. I think it's futile to read more into it, but then, I've always found the "Burke did it" to be the weakest of the Ramsey-related theories by far.

BR changed the story to JonBenet walking upstairs into the house. Take our pick.

According to Steve Thomas, who we know misrepresented other parts of the Bernhard interview.

He also altered events to going back downstairs for a toy. At what time was that? Did he go into the kitchen? Apparently he was not tired.

Burke (from Dr Phil interview):

Burke: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed and wanting to get this thing out.

Dr. Phil: Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn't be seen?

Burke: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

John:

Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed.

So they're obviously describing the same event. The parents have taken JonBenet upstairs and put her to bed, then John goes down to find Burke who is obsessing over his toy.

The Rs were never tried in court; and so, it cannot be determined if the case were winnable or not. At trial, the facts and testimony that led to the indictments would come out. Who can say what they are? Of course, a DA office which does not want a conviction is a good indicator of the outcome. Money you got lots of friends crowding round your door.

I think the idea that Hunter was corrupted by money is absolutely ridiculous.

In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: The police, who investigate crime, and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. (dun dun) And in this case, the two were not working well together. Having read Schiller's book which meticulously gives both sides the chance to speak, I'll say neither side acquitted themselves well, but the majority of my sympathies are with Hunter and his office. They were begging and pleading with the BPD to investigate the case properly, look at every angle and lead because they knew the defense would eviscerate the investigation on trial, and for good reason. But the BPD were just, nah, we know who did it already, and don't tell us how to do our job. Honestly, most blame should go to Eller, who refused to accept help from the outside, notfrom FBI, nor the Denver PD and the Boulder Sheriff's Department. Even with the mess the first responders made, this case could well have been solved within the first months had Eller not been so stubborn. And the funny thing is, the only person I could find who actually seems to have been cowed by the Ramseys' money and status was Eller! He was the one who ordered the police to back off them before he turned on a dime and became their biggest enemy.

I think the most depressing read was from Steve Thomas, when he complains at length about the situation with professor Foster. The good professor had been hired to analyze the ransom note, and so he did, and came to the conclusion that Patsy was absolutely the writer. Thomas saw this as a smoking gun and wanted to put it before the grand jury - the problem was that a year prior, professor Foster had written to Patsy, telling her he was certain she hadn't written the note. He also knew who had - John Andrew Ramsey, provably nowhere close to Boulder that night, who was also posting online under a pseudonym (which turned out to be a middle-aged North Carolina housewife). Now the DAO controls who goes before the grand jury, but at a trial they knew the defense would tear the professor apart - and with good reason, since he obviously wasn't anywhere as adept as he claimed to be. Yet Thomas throws what I can only be described as a tantrum when the DAO won't put Foster before the grand jury.

Hunter may have thought the Ramseys did it, but he was handed an unwinnable hand by the BPD, and did the only reasonable thing he could do - considering both the resources that would be wasted and the justice that would be denied - and folded.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Exactly Proust, 3 violent crimes and the ramseys claimed to of slept through it all while Burke stated he could hear the fridge door down the kitchen whenever someone opened it from his bedroom on the second floor. The parents claimed Jonbenet was zonked out when they got home and put her straight to bed. John in his interview even claimed to struggle getting her out of the car and carrying her asleep upstairs to her bed. Yet Burke states on Dr Phil he saw jonbenet walk in and walk upstairs.

BBM. I've read through the entire Dr Phil transcript, and he doesn't say that.

11 LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the
12 picture so we'll want a close up of everything.
13 This is a photograph of 417. what does that
14 represent there?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not
16 a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I
17 guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But
18 it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to
19 make it old and there's this teabag in an empty
20 glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is
21 some milk or something.
22 LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat
23 pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple,

According to police files none of the Ramseys friends or any member of the Ramsey family had any idea who prepared or served the tea. During the investigation, the crime lab found Patsy and her ten year old son, Burke's fingerprints on the bowl and Burke's on the glass of tea, adding to the mystery."

Henry Lee (Forensic Scientist): "Another area I'm always curious is whether DNA on the glass and on the bowl and particular the spoon, not only the eating area but also the handle."

Yeah, John looking at the same photo we've all seen and saying "it looks like there is some milk or something" is not confirmation that there was dairy in that bowl. Although, that may well be where the myth started. There's no evidence of dairy in any of the reports by police or experts, no one working the case mentions it or leaks anything about it, it only starts to be a thing about 20 years after the murder.

----------
The pics wernt taken several days later .....On A Candy Rose...For the record, the famous white bowl in which pineapple was found in crime scene photos taken after the morning of December 26th 1996 on the breakfast room table appears on the same table during the party on December 23rd when the Ramseys were hosting a gingerbread-house assembly for friends and children.

According to Tom Haney and Patrick Burke:

TOM HANEY: We will come to closer ones. Here is another shot here in 415.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Oh, I see. That does look like a tea bag, doesn't it?
TOM HANEY: It was taken on the 29th apparently. That is just a guess based on the Boulder police.

TOM HANEY: As we get some close ups, more close ups here in 416 and 417.
(0472-20) PATRICK BURKE: This is probably in the 12/29 roll.
PATSY RAMSEY: That is definitely a tea bag. That is weird. Like I said, there were a lot of people around that morning. TOM HANEY: When was the last time you recall that table being cleaned off?
PATSY RAMSEY: After -- well, we would have eaten pancakes together at that table on Christmas morning. And then I would have cleaned the table up.
TOM HANEY: Okay. In the course of having the pancake breakfast, would a glass or a bowl like that (inaudible).
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't tell what that is.

That doesn't contradict the above: "photos taken after the morning of December 26th"

I must look it up although 1924 its barely relevant. I've read a number of times John ramsey had the book mind hunter beside his bed.

If you want a more recent one, there's the 1968 Mackle ransom note. It is more than twice as long as the Ramsey note. The idea that the Ramsey note was the longest one in history (as I've seen said elsewhere) is, well, completely untrue.

Interesting, though, is that L&L as well as the Mackle kidnapper (and in my opinion the intruder at the Ramseys) were young men in their early 20s. I think that comes across in all three notes.

The type of Movie posters in the house caught interest as parts of the ramson note were likened to what happened in those movies.

Which one? "An Officer and a Gentleman" is a romantic drama, without kidnappings or ransoms. "Death on the Nile" is a lush Agatha Christie whodunnit, about as gritty and realistic as Midsomer Murders, with no kidnappings or ransoms. As far as I know there were no posters of "Dirty Harry", "Speed" or "Ransom", the movies the note quoted from, some of which actually featured kidnappings and ransoms - and are a very different kind of movies than the ones they had posters of.

EDIT: Found four more posters they had: "Star Trek: the Motion Picture", sci-fi adventure, no kidnappings, ransoms or murders. "The Devil at 4 O'Clock", adventure film based on the Krakatoa eruption, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Somewhere in Time", romantic drama with a time travel element, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Gone With the Wind", classic period drama without kidnappings or ransoms.

Beckner was asked about several aspects of the case. When questioned about whether a stun gun was used on JonBenet as had been reported in the months after the murder, Beckner said that wasn't true.

"Stun gun -- no. The coroner and others who looked at the abrasion did not believe it came from a stun gun. The distance between the two marks did not match the probes of any stun gun we found. Stun guns are loud and hurt like crazy -- which would have probably elicited some screaming. That probably would have woke someone up."

I've never been wedded to Smit's theory of when the stun gun was applied. My interest is that Doberson, an expert, found them compatible. I trust Doberson and Smit more on the spacing of the marks than Beckner and Kolar.

We have also seen in the CBS documentary, where they carried out a demonstration with what occurs when a stun gun is used on a person. They don't fall asleep and then someone can carry them away in silience. It hurts like hell and the victim soon after would be making noise if nit screaming the house down. The makers of these stun guns stated the marks wernt from their guns also the distance wasnt exact hence Smit saying ...it's a close match . The train track ends were far more of a closer match in size ...foreign faction James kolar. Also the mark on jon benets face has an interesting pattern to it when you enlarge a clear picture of it. Almost like a military button pattern in moo. Some have stated it looks like a ring.

The supposed discrepancy is a millimeter or two - if true, that could easily be explained by the fact that skin isn't a hard, rigid surface. Of course, the train tracks wouldn't be a greater match, because they do not fit the shape of the marks, nor could they produce marks of that nature. A bruise, yes. A cut, if pressed hard enough, yes. But these kinds of abrasions?

Also,if you look at the crime scene video you can see that it is an American Flyer 'O' gauge. Those tracks have three prongs. So where is the third abrasion on either of the sets of marks on JonBenet?

FergusMcDuck...have you ever tried walking down a home spiral stairway the size of the Ramseys? My friends had one in their house, how enlightening it was walking down it. Immediately it struck me just how difficult it would be maneuvering down one in low light let alone the added challenge of carrying a 6 year old child down it as well.

I have walked down spiral staircases carrying loads in my arms. Some are steeper than others, but if you're careful and take your time it's no problem.

 

[Case Cracker]

BBM. I've read through the entire Dr Phil transcript, and he doesn't say that.



Yeah, John looking at the same photo we've all seen and saying "it looks like there is some milk or something" is not confirmation that there was dairy in that bowl. Although, that may well be where the myth started. There's no evidence of dairy in any of the reports by police or experts, no one working the case mentions it or leaks anything about it, it only starts to be a thing about 20 years after the murder.



According to Tom Haney and Patrick Burke:





That doesn't contradict the above: "photos taken after the morning of December 26th"



If you want a more recent one, there's the 1968 Mackle ransom note. It is more than twice as long as the Ramsey note. The idea that the Ramsey note was the longest one in history (as I've seen said elsewhere) is, well, completely untrue.

Interesting, though, is that L&L as well as the Mackle kidnapper (and in my opinion the intruder at the Ramseys) were young men in their early 20s. I think that comes across in all three notes.



Which one? "An Officer and a Gentleman" is a romantic drama, without kidnappings or ransoms. "Death on the Nile" is a lush Agatha Christie whodunnit, about as gritty and realistic as Midsomer Murders, with no kidnappings or ransoms. As far as I know there were no posters of "Dirty Harry", "Speed" or "Ransom", the movies the note quoted from, some of which actually featured kidnappings and ransoms - and are a very different kind of movies than the ones they had posters of.

EDIT: Found four more posters they had: "Star Trek: the Motion Picture", sci-fi adventure, no kidnappings, ransoms or murders. "The Devil at 4 O'Clock", adventure film based on the Krakatoa eruption, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Somewhere in Time", romantic drama with a time travel element, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Gone With the Wind", classic period drama without kidnappings or ransoms.



I've never been wedded to Smit's theory of when the stun gun was applied. My interest is that Doberson, an expert, found them compatible. I trust Doberson and Smit more on the spacing of the marks than Beckner and Kolar.



The supposed discrepancy is a millimeter or two - if true, that could easily be explained by the fact that skin isn't a hard, rigid surface. Of course, the train tracks wouldn't be a greater match, because they do not fit the shape of the marks, nor could they produce marks of that nature. A bruise, yes. A cut, if pressed hard enough, yes. But these kinds of abrasions?

Also,if you look at the crime scene video you can see that it is an American Flyer 'O' gauge. Those tracks have three prongs. So where is the third abrasion on either of the sets of marks on JonBenet?



I have walked down spiral staircases carrying loads in my arms. Some are steeper than others, but if you're careful and take your time it's no problem.

Well thats great....now try attempting such in the dark, holding a flash light as well as a 6 year old child. Come on now, please dont try and insult people's intelligence.

 

[Case Cracker]

BBM. I've read through the entire Dr Phil transcript, and he doesn't say that.



Yeah, John looking at the same photo we've all seen and saying "it looks like there is some milk or something" is not confirmation that there was dairy in that bowl. Although, that may well be where the myth started. There's no evidence of dairy in any of the reports by police or experts, no one working the case mentions it or leaks anything about it, it only starts to be a thing about 20 years after the murder.



According to Tom Haney and Patrick Burke:





That doesn't contradict the above: "photos taken after the morning of December 26th"



If you want a more recent one, there's the 1968 Mackle ransom note. It is more than twice as long as the Ramsey note. The idea that the Ramsey note was the longest one in history (as I've seen said elsewhere) is, well, completely untrue.

Interesting, though, is that L&L as well as the Mackle kidnapper (and in my opinion the intruder at the Ramseys) were young men in their early 20s. I think that comes across in all three notes.



Which one? "An Officer and a Gentleman" is a romantic drama, without kidnappings or ransoms. "Death on the Nile" is a lush Agatha Christie whodunnit, about as gritty and realistic as Midsomer Murders, with no kidnappings or ransoms. As far as I know there were no posters of "Dirty Harry", "Speed" or "Ransom", the movies the note quoted from, some of which actually featured kidnappings and ransoms - and are a very different kind of movies than the ones they had posters of.

EDIT: Found four more posters they had: "Star Trek: the Motion Picture", sci-fi adventure, no kidnappings, ransoms or murders. "The Devil at 4 O'Clock", adventure film based on the Krakatoa eruption, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Somewhere in Time", romantic drama with a time travel element, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Gone With the Wind", classic period drama without kidnappings or ransoms.



I've never been wedded to Smit's theory of when the stun gun was applied. My interest is that Doberson, an expert, found them compatible. I trust Doberson and Smit more on the spacing of the marks than Beckner and Kolar.



The supposed discrepancy is a millimeter or two - if true, that could easily be explained by the fact that skin isn't a hard, rigid surface. Of course, the train tracks wouldn't be a greater match, because they do not fit the shape of the marks, nor could they produce marks of that nature. A bruise, yes. A cut, if pressed hard enough, yes. But these kinds of abrasions?

Also,if you look at the crime scene video you can see that it is an American Flyer 'O' gauge. Those tracks have three prongs. So where is the third abrasion on either of the sets of marks on JonBenet?



I have walked down spiral staircases carrying loads in my arms. Some are steeper than others, but if you're careful and take your time it's

Well thats great....now try attempting such in the dark, holding a flash light as well as a 6 year old child. Come on now, please dont try and insult people's intelligence.

 

[Case Cracker]

BBM. I've read through the entire Dr Phil transcript, and he doesn't say that.



Yeah, John looking at the same photo we've all seen and saying "it looks like there is some milk or something" is not confirmation that there was dairy in that bowl. Although, that may well be where the myth started. There's no evidence of dairy in any of the reports by police or experts, no one working the case mentions it or leaks anything about it, it only starts to be a thing about 20 years after the murder.



According to Tom Haney and Patrick Burke:





That doesn't contradict the above: "photos taken after the morning of December 26th"



If you want a more recent one, there's the 1968 Mackle ransom note. It is more than twice as long as the Ramsey note. The idea that the Ramsey note was the longest one in history (as I've seen said elsewhere) is, well, completely untrue.

Interesting, though, is that L&L as well as the Mackle kidnapper (and in my opinion the intruder at the Ramseys) were young men in their early 20s. I think that comes across in all three notes.



Which one? "An Officer and a Gentleman" is a romantic drama, without kidnappings or ransoms. "Death on the Nile" is a lush Agatha Christie whodunnit, about as gritty and realistic as Midsomer Murders, with no kidnappings or ransoms. As far as I know there were no posters of "Dirty Harry", "Speed" or "Ransom", the movies the note quoted from, some of which actually featured kidnappings and ransoms - and are a very different kind of movies than the ones they had posters of.

EDIT: Found four more posters they had: "Star Trek: the Motion Picture", sci-fi adventure, no kidnappings, ransoms or murders. "The Devil at 4 O'Clock", adventure film based on the Krakatoa eruption, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Somewhere in Time", romantic drama with a time travel element, no kidnappings or ransoms. "Gone With the Wind", classic period drama without kidnappings or ransoms.



I've never been wedded to Smit's theory of when the stun gun was applied. My interest is that Doberson, an expert, found them compatible. I trust Doberson and Smit more on the spacing of the marks than Beckner and Kolar.



The supposed discrepancy is a millimeter or two - if true, that could easily be explained by the fact that skin isn't a hard, rigid surface. Of course, the train tracks wouldn't be a greater match, because they do not fit the shape of the marks, nor could they produce marks of that nature. A bruise, yes. A cut, if pressed hard enough, yes. But these kinds of abrasions?

Also,if you look at the crime scene video you can see that it is an American Flyer 'O' gauge. Those tracks have three prongs. So where is the third abrasion on either of the sets of marks on JonBenet?



I have walked down spiral staircases carrying loads in my arms. Some are steeper than others, but if you're careful and take your time it's no problem.

Oh dear.... look I'm not even going to respond to those answers as many on here have already covered all that in past posts. I truly feel you should get back to the drawing board and start with reading James Kolars and Steve Thomas's books. There are plenty of experts out there that have a wealth of interesting things to say about this case and ones that worked on the case and know far more than us armchair detectives. What I've read about Smit is that he was a caring chriatian man, one whom hopped in the van with the ramseys and prayed with them. Many stated this wasnt professional. I do wonder if he came to a conclusion on who did this and felt extremely sorry for the position the ramseys were left in and pushed his intruder theory. The CBS documentary certainly was an eye opener. Also I'm not sure what transcript you read but many of us have watched and heard it with our own ears where Burke admits he went downstairs later that nite and dr phil states that too! I'll leave you with the proof... Here it is from reddit ....


Burke admitting he went downstairs that night - cut from almost all copies of the interview - here’s the original - scroll to 34 min - link below

Screen record people. Someone’s doing their best to keep this cut from the net

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Well thats great....now try attempting such in the dark, holding a flash light as well as a 6 year old child. Come on now, please dont try and insult people's intelligence.

What can I say? It is far from impossible and I'm not going to pretend that it somehow is.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Oh dear.... look I'm not even going to respond to those answers as many on here have already covered all that in past posts. I truly feel you should get back to the drawing board and start with reading James Kolars and Steve Thomas's books. There are plenty of experts out there that have a wealth of interesting things to say about this case and ones that worked on the case and know far more than us armchair detectives. What I've read about Smit is that he was a caring chriatian man, one whom hopped in the van with the ramseys and prayed with them. Many stated this wasnt professional.

Lou Smit solved more murder cases than Thomas and Kolar put together (which isn't hard, because most numbers are higher than zero). I don't even agree with all his conclusions, but I have more respect for Smit than for anyone else involved in this case.

I do wonder if he came to a conclusion on who did this and felt extremely sorry for the position the ramseys were left in and pushed his intruder theory.

See, I think Thomas and Kolar are wrong, but I do think that they genuinely believe their theories. I think it's kind of insulting to suggest that Smit - whose career and reputation is far more impressive than either of those - didn't believe what he was saying. Even if he somehow didn't, why would he then work on the case until his death years later? What would be the point?

The CBS documentary certainly was an eye opener. Also I'm not sure what transcript you read but many of us have watched and heard it with our own ears where Burke admits he went downstairs later that nite and dr phil states that too! I'll leave you with the proof... Here it is from reddit ....


Burke admitting he went downstairs that night - cut from almost all copies of the interview - here’s the original - scroll to 34 min - link below

Screen record people. Someone’s doing their best to keep this cut from the net

Yes, I quoted the transcript of that clip earlier. What Burke says (not Dr Phil) is that he was downstairs putting together a toy while the others were upstairs. This matches what John says, that after they put JonBenet to bed, he went downstairs and found Burke obsessing over a toy and helped him, then took him upstairs.

 

[Eddie99]

I think Kolar & Thomas were more interested in their wallets, than solving a murder.

With the recent Alex Jones jury award in mind. I'm hoping that once this thing is solved - the family can go after these people.

 

[UKGuy]

Lou Smit solved more murder cases than Thomas and Kolar put together (which isn't hard, because most numbers are higher than zero). I don't even agree with all his conclusions, but I have more respect for Smit than for anyone else involved in this case.



See, I think Thomas and Kolar are wrong, but I do think that they genuinely believe their theories. I think it's kind of insulting to suggest that Smit - whose career and reputation is far more impressive than either of those - didn't believe what he was saying. Even if he somehow didn't, why would he then work on the case until his death years later? What would be the point?



Yes, I quoted the transcript of that clip earlier. What Burke says (not Dr Phil) is that he was downstairs putting together a toy while the others were upstairs. This matches what John says, that after they put JonBenet to bed, he went downstairs and found Burke obsessing over a toy and helped him, then took him upstairs.

FergusMcDuck,

Lou Smit solved more murder cases than Thomas and Kolar put together (which isn't hard, because most numbers are higher than zero). I don't even agree with all his conclusions, but I HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR SMIT than for anyone else involved in this case.

BBM: You should get your pocketbook out and make a donation to Smit's Foundation. They are sampling and testing DNA for a match to the CODIS entry.

See, I think Thomas and Kolar are wrong, but I do think that they genuinely believe their theories.

Sure, just like you believe your theories for which you offer NO additional evidence.

JR and Smit had a "genuine belief" in the power of prayer and the reading of scripture, its alleged they knelt in prayer together.

Even if he somehow didn't, why would he then work on the case until his death years later? What would be the point?

Could be he was employed by the Ramsey's to continue. That would look good for both sides, yes?

Yes, I quoted the transcript of that clip earlier. What Burke says (not Dr Phil) is that he was downstairs putting together a toy while the others were upstairs. This matches what John says, that after they put JonBenet to bed, he went downstairs and found Burke obsessing over a toy and helped him, then took him upstairs.

What Dr Phil says is that JR told him that he used the FLASHLIGHT to put BR to bed.

This is a revision from his previous account where he did not recognize the flashlight, etc.

JR patently intended this tale regarding the flashlight for public consumption.

Why would a man of JR's immense wealth need a flashlight to put his son to bed, did he not have light switches in his house?

Methinks JR is sneaking in an alibi of sorts for BR wrt flashlight.

.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,

BBM: You should get your pocketbook out and make a donation to Smit's Foundation. They are sampling and testing DNA for a match to the CODIS entry.

Man. Even in death, Smit works harder than the BPD.

Sure, just like you believe your theories for which you offer NO additional evidence.

JR and Smit had a "genuine belief" in the power of prayer and the reading of scripture, its alleged they knelt in prayer together.

Smit prayed with a lot of people over his career, colleagues, witnesses and suspects alike. Apparently he got close to suspects to evaluate them and making them drop their guard. I personally think it's a better tactic than the Reid technique.

Could be he was employed by the Ramsey's to continue. That would look good for both sides, yes?

Are you suggesting Smit was paid by the Ramseys to lie?

What Dr Phil says

And I'm going to stop right there. What Dr Phil says is of no interest to me whatsoever. I have no trust that the man cares one whit about being accurate or truthful, and that lack of trust is very empirical.

My interest is in what John or Burke says. And I have never seen John say he used a flashlight to put Burke to bed. Not saying he hasn't, just that I've looked through a ton of interviews and articles and haven't seen it. There is a problem with myths going around this case, and it's making it very difficult to correctly evaluate what actually happened. So I like to see the words coming from the people themselves, be they suspects, witnesses or experts.

 

[txsleuth70]

FergusMcDuck,

BBM: You should get your pocketbook out and make a donation to Smit's Foundation. They are sampling and testing DNA for a match to the CODIS entry.


Sure, just like you believe your theories for which you offer NO additional evidence.

JR and Smit had a "genuine belief" in the power of prayer and the reading of scripture, its alleged they knelt in prayer together.


Could be he was employed by the Ramsey's to continue. That would look good for both sides, yes?


What Dr Phil says is that JR told him that he used the FLASHLIGHT to put BR to bed.

This is a revision from his previous account where he did not recognize the flashlight, etc.

JR patently intended this tale regarding the flashlight for public consumption.

Why would a man of JR's immense wealth need a flashlight to put his son to bed, did he not have light switches in his house?

Methinks JR is sneaking in an alibi of sorts for BR wrt flashlight.

.

I just posted this very thing on another site this morning. Using a flashlight in his own home without an electrical outage makes no sense.