Lies point us to the truth #2

[ILikeToBendPages]

The bat outside had a blonde hair on it according to Steve Thomas.

Pasty has a pair of boots lined with beaver fur.

The broken window had a spider web across the broken glass.

I think John "going to get the mail" was to see where Pasty hid JonBenet. After he got back from getting the mail he was distraught and I think was trying to find away to discover JonBenet before a major search was started.

I think, in MOHO, Pasty had loosey tied JonBenet hands over her chest like she was in prayer because of Pasty's religious beliefs

Burke was a boy scout and knew how to tie knots. He had also been on their boats and probably tied knots on it to the dock, but so did Pasty.

 

[Eddie99]

Nothing was found in the home that matched the animal hair found on JBR.

If we're going to mention judge Cairns. It's probably worth noting she dismissed a libel charge against the ramseys. And found:

6 out of 6 handwriting experts suggest PR didn't author the RN.

That the BPD used the media as a weapon against the Ramsey's. *In my opinion this was to salvage careers and subsequent pensions of dozens of staff that should have been terminated. And, some used this as a means to make money off interviews, books and magazines.

Sickening.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,
Well you appear particularly selective in what you consider relevant evidence, e.g. Dr Phil on the flashlight.

Again, not selective at all. I don't accept trashy tabloids or blowhard TV personalities with a history of being sloppy with facts as authoritative sources, and I don't see why anyone should.

Burke does NOT remember the flashlight, he dodges that question and says he remembers the toy.



BBM: Note: Burke AGREES here with Dr Phil, when he says "I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to PUT YOU TO BED, and then you snuck downstairs to play?"

Your first Dr Phil? Notice what the actual question in that run-on sentence is.

The obvious response is to say "I never used a flashlight, I just used the ceiling lights."

OR/AND "No, my father never used a flashlight to put me to bed", etc.

And it's super easy for us, having the benefit of taking our time to read the questions and formulating a full response. Burke was on national TV, being asked a question and answered it instead of correcting the statement made before the question.

The question is if he was downstairs playing, and that is what Burke answers in the affirmative.

The flashlight question acts as trigger on BR, nasty memories here, so he FORGETS it.

In conclusion Burke does NOT say he CANNOT remember his father using the flashlight to put him to bed.

Instead Burke claims he CANNOT remember using it HIMSELF when he was downstairs engaging with this unknown toy!

The flashlight patently played a part in the sexual assault and murder of JonBenet, HOW, well I've posted on that aspect many times.

Let's put it this way, if the case is BDI, then BR needs an alibi as to why he can be linked to the flashlight say via touch-dna.

It's also possible JonBenet was whacked on the head with the flashlight, resulting in the Blunt Force Trauma to her skull.

Well, that's a fanciful explanation. Much like "the Ramseys changed their story after the NE told them about the enhanced 911 call" it doesn't actually make sense when you think about it. If Burke's print or DNA or whatever on the flashlight is the reason for Dr Phil's statement, why does neither Dr Phil nor Burke say anything about Burke holding or touching the flashlight? Instead of not remembering, Burke would have said "Yes, and he let me use the flashlight to guide the way." or something like it.

Case Cracker,
Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes JonBenet sleeping in Burke's room is entirely possible, it would not be the first time the kids shared bedrooms or beds, they shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve, why would Christmas Night be any different?

They did? What's the source for that?

The Ramsey Housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, is on record stating that she walked in on Burke and JonBenet, allegedly Playing Doctor.

On record where?

If the pineapple snack had taken place on arriving back from the White's Christmas Party then Patsy would have known about this and made sure any evidence was removed to make the appearance of the breakfast bar match the Ramsey Version of Events, this did NOT happen.

As Sherlock might have said "It's elementary my dear Watson" the parents were ignorant regarding the pineapple snack, it was not on their radar!

Because it wasn't there. JonBenet had eaten the pineapple/grape/cherry combo earlier in the evening, and the bowl wasn't put out until the next morning, likely by the victim advocates. That's the best explanation for everything.

The more mysterious aspects to the case is who moved JonBenet down to the basement, was it BR?

The initial staging is certainly childish in nature, e.g. size-12's and BR's longjohns.

Or it was the panties she had worn the whole night, and handmedown longjohns - and it just occurred to me that this makes the "factory worker" explanation for the touch DNA on the longjohns even more ridiculous.

Did BR break the basement window, did he assault JonBenet with the paintbrush either as a form of amateur staging or some kind of postmortem ritual, the latter is very common in sexually motivated homicides?

If the window was broken that night, where is the glass? If the whole point of the staging was to create the impression of an intruder (ransom note and all), why would they clean up the glass and remove it?

So there is patently more to case, particularly when you consider JR saying he broke the window earlier that year, and that he used the flashlight to put BR to bed, i.e. alibis for BR?

But why do that if the window was broken that night and they were going to blame it on an intruder? Why wipe the flashlight of prints but not toss it along with the glass shards?

BR alibis JR on his claim to have broken the basement window because he misplaced his keys.

This is another example of the Ramsey's engaging in postmortem staging?

I think people who suspect staging should probably go back and reevaluate their theories. Just go over all the bits and ask yourself "why?" at every point.

 

[txsleuth70]

Again, not selective at all. I don't accept trashy tabloids or blowhard TV personalities with a history of being sloppy with facts as authoritative sources, and I don't see why anyone should.



Your first Dr Phil? Notice what the actual question in that run-on sentence is.



And it's super easy for us, having the benefit of taking our time to read the questions and formulating a full response. Burke was on national TV, being asked a question and answered it instead of correcting the statement made before the question.

The question is if he was downstairs playing, and that is what Burke answers in the affirmative.



Well, that's a fanciful explanation. Much like "the Ramseys changed their story after the NE told them about the enhanced 911 call" it doesn't actually make sense when you think about it. If Burke's print or DNA or whatever on the flashlight is the reason for Dr Phil's statement, why does neither Dr Phil nor Burke say anything about Burke holding or touching the flashlight? Instead of not remembering, Burke would have said "Yes, and he let me use the flashlight to guide the way." or something like it.



They did? What's the source for that?



On record where?



Because it wasn't there. JonBenet had eaten the pineapple/grape/cherry combo earlier in the evening, and the bowl wasn't put out until the next morning, likely by the victim advocates. That's the best explanation for everything.



Or it was the panties she had worn the whole night, and handmedown longjohns - and it just occurred to me that this makes the "factory worker" explanation for the touch DNA on the longjohns even more ridiculous.



If the window was broken that night, where is the glass? If the whole point of the staging was to create the impression of an intruder (ransom note and all), why would they clean up the glass and remove it?



But why do that if the window was broken that night and they were going to blame it on an intruder? Why wipe the flashlight of prints but not toss it along with the glass shards?



I think people who suspect staging should probably go back and reevaluate their theories. Just go over all the bits and ask yourself "why?" at every point.

The victims advocate/pineapple theory is just silly:

1. If she ate the tidbit of pineapple at the White's, why wouldn't other pieces of food also have been found? I'm certain she didn't have only one tidbit of pineapple and nothing else at the party that evening.

2. There were no victim advocates fingerprints found on the bowl, milk, spoon or glass of tea.

3. Pineapples and milk was told be known as one of BR's choice snacks.

4. An adult isn't going to make themselves and oversized bowl of pineapple with a large serving spoon, with a milk and poorly made tea, and leave it all out.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

The victims advocate/pineapple theory is just silly:

1. If she ate the tidbit of pineapple at the White's, why wouldn't other pieces of food also have been found? I'm certain she didn't have only one tidbit of pineapple and nothing else at the party that evening.

There was. Grapes and cherries were found with the pineapple. There was more food further down in her lower intestine - assuming that was dinner, the fruit would have been something eaten after, as part of a dessert or something similar.

2. There were no victim advocates fingerprints found on the bowl, milk, spoon or glass of tea.

Fingerprints are never a guarantee, especially not clear ones. Their absence is not evidence.

3. Pineapples and milk was told be known as one of BR's choice snacks.

No, it wasn't. No one has ever said this.

4. An adult isn't going to make themselves and oversized bowl of pineapple with a large serving spoon, with a milk and poorly made tea, and leave it all out.

No one is, but then, there wasn't milk in the bowl, and I personally doubt there was ever tea in that glass.

 

[UKGuy]

Again, not selective at all. I don't accept trashy tabloids or blowhard TV personalities with a history of being sloppy with facts as authoritative sources, and I don't see why anyone should.



Your first Dr Phil? Notice what the actual question in that run-on sentence is.



And it's super easy for us, having the benefit of taking our time to read the questions and formulating a full response. Burke was on national TV, being asked a question and answered it instead of correcting the statement made before the question.

The question is if he was downstairs playing, and that is what Burke answers in the affirmative.



Well, that's a fanciful explanation. Much like "the Ramseys changed their story after the NE told them about the enhanced 911 call" it doesn't actually make sense when you think about it. If Burke's print or DNA or whatever on the flashlight is the reason for Dr Phil's statement, why does neither Dr Phil nor Burke say anything about Burke holding or touching the flashlight? Instead of not remembering, Burke would have said "Yes, and he let me use the flashlight to guide the way." or something like it.



They did? What's the source for that?



On record where?



Because it wasn't there. JonBenet had eaten the pineapple/grape/cherry combo earlier in the evening, and the bowl wasn't put out until the next morning, likely by the victim advocates. That's the best explanation for everything.



Or it was the panties she had worn the whole night, and handmedown longjohns - and it just occurred to me that this makes the "factory worker" explanation for the touch DNA on the longjohns even more ridiculous.



If the window was broken that night, where is the glass? If the whole point of the staging was to create the impression of an intruder (ransom note and all), why would they clean up the glass and remove it?



But why do that if the window was broken that night and they were going to blame it on an intruder? Why wipe the flashlight of prints but not toss it along with the glass shards?



I think people who suspect staging should probably go back and reevaluate their theories. Just go over all the bits and ask yourself "why?" at every point.

FergusMcDuck,
BR and JB sharing bedroom.

They did? What's the source for that?

Sure they did. Patsy told BPD and CNN "they checked Burke's room for their daughter, who sometimes slept there", also attributed to the Bonita Papers and PR's BPD interview was that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on Christmas Eve.

Because it wasn't there. JonBenet had eaten the pineapple/grape/cherry combo earlier in the evening, and the bowl wasn't put out until the next morning, likely by the victim advocates. That's the best explanation for everything.

This is just plain invention by you. There is NO forensic evidence to substantiate your claim.

Or it was the panties she had worn the whole night, and handmedown longjohns - and it just occurred to me that this makes the "factory worker" explanation for the touch DNA on the longjohns even more ridiculous.

BR's dna should be on the longjohns right?

If the window was broken that night, where is the glass? If the whole point of the staging was to create the impression of an intruder (ransom note and all), why would they clean up the glass and remove it?

The glass was on the floor, and window sill, Fleet White picked up some shards and relocated them.

But why do that if the window was broken that night and they were going to blame it on an intruder? Why wipe the flashlight of prints but not toss it along with the glass shards?

Because they knew it could be traced back to the Ramsey family. So wiping it clean and relocating it in the kitchen seemed lie a good option.

There was. Grapes and cherries were found with the pineapple.

NOPE, more fairy tales from your fevered imagination.

3. Pineapples and milk was told be known as one of BR's choice snacks.

No, it wasn't. No one has ever said this.

From memory this was Patsy's answer during one of the BPD interviews. They are online, go look.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi Txsleuth70
Was this the bat found outside with carpet fibers on it ...consistent with the basement carpet? Didn't the Ramseys initially deny knowing anything about it? Yet it turned out to be Burkes and he admitted it on Dr Phil. Judge Carnes Opinion. The Carnes opinion states that the bat "has fibers consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF P 185; PSMF P 185.)" (Carnes 2003:20).

• strange sound that he described as metal crushing/hitting concrete deep at night

Ive always wondered if it was the bat that caused the severe head wound. If you look at the shocking state of poor little Jonbenets head, I personally feel the impact of a bat would do that kind of damage more so than a flash light.

Taking a look at the pics where this bat was found wasn't far from the basement outside. Was it dropped outside from the butlers pantry door or another house window, causing the noise heard by the neighbor?

Thanks UKGUY,

Thanks UKGuy, again, excellent comments. I certainly read about Linda finding the kids playing doctor in Burkes room and her being told to go away. What the hell was going on in that house? I'm still finding my way around here ( a very new member) can you lead me to your previous posts on the above. I would be interested in what you have to say regarding the size 12s. Patsy said she put them in Jonbenets drawer yet the Police state they didn't even find one pair in there of that size. Size 12s would of been HUGE on jonbenet and fallen down ( I saw that a lady made a model in jonbenet's size & placed a size 12 Bloomingdale's pair on it so we could see just how large they were ) what an eye opener, If she'd worn them under a dress, they simply would of fallen down. I wondered if it was important to someone to have jonbenet found in completely clean underpants. It was stated all underpants in the drawer had old soil marks on them despite being washed. I'd like to read more on the weapon used. I just get a feeling the bat would of easily had more of an impact and created the horrendous skull fracture right down little jonbenets head. Would love to know your thoughts UKGuy as it seems you've studied this case for a very long time

CaseCracker,

What the hell was going on in that house?

Well, patently someone was sexually abusing JonBenet.

Foreign Faction by James Kolar, Excerpt

Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét.

...

Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of SEXUAL CONTACT PRIOR TO THE DATE OF HER DEATH.

BBM: above.

can you lead me to your previous posts on the above.

Just use the Search Feature on the webpage by typing in particular keywords e.g. "BDI Window", etc.

There is a whole section devoted to the size-12's, where I show how Patsy's claims regarding the underwear do NOT stand up.

I wondered if it was important to someone to have jonbenet found in completely clean underpants. It was stated all underpants in the drawer had old soil marks on them despite being washed.

Yes, JonBenet would have worn her NEW size-6 Bloomingdale's WEDNESDAY underwear to the White's party, along with her black velvet pants.

The size-6 underwear she wore to the White's party were NEVER found and BPD have NEVER released details on the underwear recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer, other than the size, go figure!

Since JonBenet was redressed in size-12 WEDNESDAY underwear then it's the Day Of The Week feature that matters to the stager, along with them being clean of course.

I'd like to read more on the weapon used.

There are many theories, some of which advocate the use of the Flashlight, Baseball Bat, or Barbell. The latter can be seen in photographs of JonBenet's bedroom.

The Baseball Bat might either represent staging to chime with the Broken Window or the dumping of forensic evidence by JonBenet's killer?

JonBenet's murder is a Sexual Homicide, which highlights JR as a prime suspect.

The intimate aspects of PR and JR's marriage had broken down, with PR disliking JR's repeated requests.

So it's possible JR had turned to JonBenet?

With JonBenet performing at Pageants and Malls, etc.

She would be no stranger to adult attention.

IMO, JonBenet was the classic child abuse victim.

Due to her age and innocence she was trapped by circumstance with NOBODY to talk to.

Vulnerable, and stressed from all the demands placed on her immature frame. This is what likely caused her to wet the bed?

The trigger for JonBenet's murder might have been her decision to tell someone that she was being abused?

Psychologically JonBenet would have been confused and disassociated, since her normal development had been interrupted.

Patsy stated that JonBenet had been in therapy prior to Christmas, this might have prompted JonBenet to resolve to communicate her feelings to some other third party?

JonBenet ITRMI A Gathering Storm, Chapter 12, excerpt

Burke Ramsey had returned to classes, without police escort, a few weeks after a "small foreign faction" killed his sister. When Detective Gossage called a THERAPIST WHO WE WERE TOLD HAD SEEN JONBENET, he was told to "talk to the Parents Attorneys".

BBM: Above.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,
BR and JB sharing bedroom.

Sure they did. Patsy told BPD and CNN "they checked Burke's room for their daughter, who sometimes slept there", also attributed to the Bonita Papers and PR's BPD interview was that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on Christmas Eve.

It's in the Bonita Papers (which can't be taken as fact) but Patsy never says it happened in her interviews.

This is just plain invention by you. There is NO forensic evidence to substantiate your claim.

I quoted from the DA's index earlier here. Excerpt:

Followup on the stomach contents, re: the Pineapple. Contacts with Dr [Redacted], Dr [Redacted] [Redacted], Dr Meyer. Other item besides pineapple was cherries. [1-1348]
Followup by Det. Weinheimer on the pineapple recovered from the Ramsey house. Also letter (report) from Dr [Redacted] and [Redacted] re: their findings. Grape skin also found. [1-1448]

Per Dr [Redacted] pineapple could have been eaten even the day before. [26-193]
Report from Dr [Redacted] and Dr [Redacted] regarding the pineapple and grape in the intestine as requested by Det. Carey Weinheimer [42-78]

December 25, 1997 – Dr [Redacted] informed Det Weinheimer that the intestine contents included pineapple and grapes including skin and pulp. [1-1349]
January 22, 1998 – Det Weinheimer received a report from Dr [Redacted] and [Redacted] concerning their findings from the examination of the contents of the intestine. [1-1349]

BR's dna should be on the longjohns right?

What? No, it shouldn't.

The glass was on the floor, and window sill, Fleet White picked up some shards and relocated them.

Some small shards, yes, but not the majority of the glass which was gone. Where did it go and why?

Because they knew it could be traced back to the Ramsey family. So wiping it clean and relocating it in the kitchen seemed lie a good option.

But the place the Ramseys kept their flashlight was not on top of the kitchen table. Why put it out in the open where it would be noticable and remarked upon?

From memory this was Patsy's answer during one of the BPD interviews. They are online, go look.

You remember wrong. It's not there, nor is it anywhere else. It's a myth that gets repeated enough that people think it's a fact. If you disagree, please provide us with a quote from the interviews.

 

[Case Cracker]

Nothing was found in the home that matched the animal hair found on JBR.

If we're going to mention judge Cairns. It's probably worth noting she dismissed a libel charge against the ramseys. And found:

6 out of 6 handwriting experts suggest PR didn't author the RN.

That the BPD used the media as a weapon against the Ramsey's. *In my opinion this was to salvage careers and subsequent pensions of dozens of staff that should have been terminated. And, some used this as a means to make money off interviews, books and magazines.

Sickening.

Nothing that was taken into evidence you mean? Regarding Patsy and handing writing experts, there are so many ... particularly ones of recent who claim its highly probable Patsy wrote the note. JonBenet's mum 'wrote' ransom note

 

[Case Cracker]

CaseCracker,

Well, patently someone was sexually abusing JonBenet.



BBM: above.


Just use the Search Feature on the webpage by typing in particular keywords e.g. "BDI Window", etc.

There is a whole section devoted to the size-12's, where I show how Patsy's claims regarding the underwear do NOT stand up.



Yes, JonBenet would have worn her NEW size-6 Bloomingdale's WEDNESDAY underwear to the White's party, along with her black velvet pants.

The size-6 underwear she wore to the White's party were NEVER found and BPD have NEVER released details on the underwear recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer, other than the size, go figure!

Since JonBenet was redressed in size-12 WEDNESDAY underwear then it's the Day Of The Week feature that matters to the stager, along with them being clean of course.


There are many theories, some of which advocate the use of the Flashlight, Baseball Bat, or Barbell. The latter can be seen in photographs of JonBenet's bedroom.

The Baseball Bat might either represent staging to chime with the Broken Window or the dumping of forensic evidence by JonBenet's killer?

JonBenet's murder is a Sexual Homicide, which highlights JR as a prime suspect.

The intimate aspects of PR and JR's marriage had broken down, with PR disliking JR's repeated requests.

So it's possible JR had turned to JonBenet?

With JonBenet performing at Pageants and Malls, etc.

She would be no stranger to adult attention.

IMO, JonBenet was the classic child abuse victim.

Due to her age and innocence she was trapped by circumstance with NOBODY to talk to.

Vulnerable, and stressed from all the demands placed on her immature frame. This is what likely caused her to wet the bed?

The trigger for JonBenet's murder might have been her decision to tell someone that she was being abused?

Psychologically JonBenet would have been confused and disassociated, since her normal development had been interrupted.

Patsy stated that JonBenet had been in therapy prior to Christmas, this might have prompted JonBenet to resolve to communicate her feelings to some other third party?



BBM: Above.

Thanks so much UKGuy, much appreciated! I'll definitely look at this over the weekend when I have some time to really go through it. I'd read somewhere both kids had been in therapy but never managed to get any further info than that. You raise an excellent point...... if jonbenet was in therapy, perhaps she had reached a point where she was going to communicate with someone. Reading this just triggered a further thought, didn't jonbent sit on the butlers kitchen stairs crying to one of Patsy's friends a couple of days before xmas saying she didn't feel pretty, was this the same day as that strange 911 call was made in their house yet Susan Stine answered the door to the police and pretty much dismissed/ wouldn't let them in? claiming it was Fleet White trying to get a script for his mother. Also wasn't Jonbenet sick and spent time in bed around Xmas? The more you read on this case, the more questions you have.

 

[UKGuy]

It's in the Bonita Papers (which can't be taken as fact) but Patsy never says it happened in her interviews.



I quoted from the DA's index earlier here. Excerpt:







What? No, it shouldn't.



Some small shards, yes, but not the majority of the glass which was gone. Where did it go and why?



But the place the Ramseys kept their flashlight was not on top of the kitchen table. Why put it out in the open where it would be noticable and remarked upon?



You remember wrong. It's not there, nor is it anywhere else. It's a myth that gets repeated enough that people think it's a fact. If you disagree, please provide us with a quote from the interviews.

FergusMcDuck,

What? No, it shouldn't.

Whut, really! What detective training school did you attend? These are BR's longjohns, so I expect to find his dna deposits on them, simple eh?

You remember wrong. It's not there, nor is it anywhere else. It's a myth that gets repeated enough that people think it's a fact. If you disagree, please provide us with a quote from the interviews.

Read all about the pineapple here:s-evidence-pineapple.htm

I have a question:

13 This is a photograph of 417. what does that
14 represent there?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not
16 a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I
17 guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But
18 it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to
19 make it old and there's this teabag in an empty
20 glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is
21 some MILK or something.
22 LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat
23 pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the KIDS LIKE PINEAPPLE,
25 but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and
0208
1 I can't imagine that the kids would have something
2 like that at any time. Certainly not with iced
3 tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced
4 tea. I think they do not.

HOW did JR know it was iced tea? How did anyone? If it was just a tea bag in a glass?

John thinks there is milk, etc in the bowl. Its looks like it to me and many others.
If its not milk its not a deal breaker, as pineapple was found, at autopsy, in JonBenet's stomach!

From memory Patsy actually said it was Burke who liked pineapple and its possibly quoted in some book that JonBenet preferred milk/cream and pineapple.

Here is an interesting post from forumsforjustice

Judge it!
I have been a medical imaging technologist for 40 years. During this time, I have watched at least 1,000 stomachs empty.

As soon as liquid or solid substance lands into an empty stomach, peristalsis begins and wave after wave of muscle contraction begins pushing material through the duodenal cap into the duodenum of the small intestine.

The only time this would not happen is in the event of an obstruction, gastritis, bowel paralysis due to trauma or other sickness, etc.

Jonbenet's G.I. tract was not compromised by gastritis, obstruction or paralyisis. We know this because the little girl's upper G.I. tract was empty except for several pieces of UNDIGESTED pineapple. Her gastrointestinal tract was operating quite efficiently.

This little girl had an empty stomach when she bit into the pineapple. The flavor of the pineapple would have caused saliva to be secreted and peristalsis to begin.

My experience tells me that those pieces of pineapple (no more than they were), would have been going into the small intestine within 10 minutes.

I believe the first blow was struck no later than 30 minutes after she ate the pineapple.

Also the Coroner never mentioned any fruit salad in his autopsy report, ONLY PINEAPPLE.

Paula Woodwards claims are unsubstantiated, quite likely just Ramsey spin even deliberate misinformation.

If the case is RDI they are obviously going to deny anything linking them to the crime-scene, so we are not really all that interested in claims that interpret the forensic evidence in favor of the R's.

We can leave that to Jameson, et al. Who Lou Smit was in cahoots with to post nonsense on her site, e.g. LHP's daughter and links to online *advertiser censored*, etc.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks so much UKGuy, much appreciated! I'll definitely look at this over the weekend when I have some time to really go through it. I'd read somewhere both kids had been in therapy but never managed to get any further info than that. You raise an excellent point...... if jonbenet was in therapy, perhaps she had reached a point where she was going to communicate with someone. Reading this just triggered a further thought, didn't jonbent sit on the butlers kitchen stairs crying to one of Patsy's friends a couple of days before xmas saying she didn't feel pretty, was this the same day as that strange 911 call was made in their house yet Susan Stine answered the door to the police and pretty much dismissed/ wouldn't let them in? claiming it was Fleet White trying to get a script for his mother. Also wasn't Jonbenet sick and spent time in bed around Xmas? The more you read on this case, the more questions you have.

Case Cracker,
Yes, something seems to have happened to JonBenet at the Ramsey Christmas Party, other kids edging in on her pageant moves, who knows?

Note how early the Stines were on board the Good Ship Ramsey, why did John or Patsy not greet the 911 responder?

They delegated to Susan Stine, this is what happens when the parents do not want to accept any responsibility.

The Fleet White explanation I'm not 100% on, I've never read his account, in depth anywhere.

Also BPD have sealed his case interview, he was the best witness in the case.

Looks like Fleet White opened the wine-cellar door BEFORE John placed JonBenet in there.

I'm convinced that Fleet White knows who was involved in the death of JonBenet, he was present when BR was dressing to leave and when John found JonBenet. Star Witness.

BTW: If you want to know why Patsy dressed in her Christmas Day clothes, read this:

48 Hours Investigates.

What does she think about these fibers?

Says Patsy: "When I - after John discovering the body, and she was brought to the living room, when I laid eyes on her, I knelt down and hugged her. But I was, had my whole body on her body. My sweater fibers, or whatever I had on that morning, are going to TRANSFER to her clothing, OK?"

Yes, Patsy we all believe you, just coincidental transfer, duh!

P.S. Of course Pasty hugging a deceased JonBenet does not explain how her sweater fibers arrived on the sticky underside of the duct-tape placed over JonBenet's mouth or those fibers embedded into the knotting on the ligature encircling her neck?

As for JonBenet being ill in bed on Christmas Day, lets put it down to her spending the night in BR's bedroom.

if jonbenet was in therapy, perhaps she had reached a point where she was going to communicate with someone.

This is quite likely the reason she was killed. She probably told her killer she was going to TELL, she was fed up being abused?

.

 

[dgfred]

Only thing I disagree on is that I believe the head blow was the original injury and the rest was to cover up the previous SA.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,

Whut, really! What detective training school did you attend? These are BR's longjohns, so I expect to find his dna deposits on them, simple eh?

They're his former longjohns, handed down to JonBenet. The only way his DNA would still be on them was if he came into contact with JonBenet wearing them in normal sibling fashion, but in no way "should" there be his DNA on them.

Read all about the pineapple here:s-evidence-pineapple.htm

John thinks there is milk, etc in the bowl. Its looks like it to me and many others.

And isn't that telling? There's no police report about the milk, no witness statement, no examination mentioning it. At no point in any of the interviews with the Ramseys do any of the questioners mention milk - despite talking about the pineapple a lot. Schiller, who is ridiculously detailed, mentions the bowl in six or seven passages, always with the pineapple, but never with even a hint of milk. In all the records, it is referred to as a bowl of pineapple, never a bowl of pineapple with milk. No, the only ones who say there is are those who look at a grainy photo, see white stuff and make their judgment from there. Even John only says "looks like there is some milk or something", hardly an affirmative response!

And so a myth is born.

If its not milk its not a deal breaker, as pineapple was found, at autopsy, in JonBenet's stomach!

From memory Patsy actually said it was Burke who liked pineapple and its possibly quoted in some book that JonBenet preferred milk/cream and pineapple.

"Possibly quoted in some book" - or rather not. For something people like to say with such certainty, no one seems to be willing or able to provide a quote. So I'm going to say there is no such quote.

Here is an interesting post from forumsforjustice

The pineapple was digested enough that what was found in the chyme was described in the autopsy report as "fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple". Pineapple is actually notoriously difficult to digest. Since humans don't digest cellulose, the fibers will remain in the duodenum for a length of time depending on the toughness of the texture. Pineapple has one of the toughest fiber textures among common fruits, but as the DA's index tells us, there was also grape skin identified - there's plenty of cellulose fibers in that. The chyme is described in the autopsy report as "yellow to light green-tan", so grapes would be a good candidate for the green color. The gastric emptying probably began within the hour, but the time in the duodenum? Based on my knowledge, it could well be 5 hours.

Also the Coroner never mentioned any fruit salad in his autopsy report, ONLY PINEAPPLE.

A coroner would not be the one to analyze the chyme, just make a note of what was identifiable. The rest is for further testing in laboratories. When food has been digested, it doesn't exactly come with neat labels for the coroner to read.

Paula Woodwards claims are unsubstantiated, quite likely just Ramsey spin even deliberate misinformation.

I have not relied on Paula Woodward's claims. I've relied on the scanned pages from the DA office's index of reports, that Woodward merely provided in her book. As I've said before, I don't actually agree with her that it was a fruit cocktail, since that contradicts the opinion of the experts regarding the nature of the pineapple - i.e. that it was probably fresh and not canned.

If the case is RDI they are obviously going to deny anything linking them to the crime-scene, so we are not really all that interested in claims that interpret the forensic evidence in favor of the R's.

That's one way to ensure one never have to change one's mind, I suppose.

 

[UKGuy]

Only thing I disagree on is that I believe the head blow was the original injury and the rest was to cover up the previous SA.

dgfred,
You could be right. The Blunt Force Trauma might also represent a failed attempt at staging?

The Foreign Faction would not know anything about a prior SA, so why bother covering it up?

There was an ACUTE SA that Christmas Night.

12-29-1996 Search Warrant for 755 15th Street, Excerpt

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the VAGINAL AREA of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with DIGITAL PENETRATION of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to SEXUAL CONTACT. For further details on the autopsy see the attached document entitled Addendum To Search Warrant.

Cased by me.

Coroner Meyer conducted a second autopsy to get a second opinion on the CHRONIC SA, which was confirmed.

Why use the paintbrush then remove part of it?

Why not leave it all at the crime-scene to authenticate the staging?

Or did BR use the paintbrush which the parents then co-opted into the ligature/paintbrush device?

.

 

[UKGuy]

They're his former longjohns, handed down to JonBenet. The only way his DNA would still be on them was if he came into contact with JonBenet wearing them in normal sibling fashion, but in no way "should" there be his DNA on them.



And isn't that telling? There's no police report about the milk, no witness statement, no examination mentioning it. At no point in any of the interviews with the Ramseys do any of the questioners mention milk - despite talking about the pineapple a lot. Schiller, who is ridiculously detailed, mentions the bowl in six or seven passages, always with the pineapple, but never with even a hint of milk. In all the records, it is referred to as a bowl of pineapple, never a bowl of pineapple with milk. No, the only ones who say there is are those who look at a grainy photo, see white stuff and make their judgment from there. Even John only says "looks like there is some milk or something", hardly an affirmative response!

And so a myth is born.



"Possibly quoted in some book" - or rather not. For something people like to say with such certainty, no one seems to be willing or able to provide a quote. So I'm going to say there is no such quote.



The pineapple was digested enough that what was found in the chyme was described in the autopsy report as "fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple". Pineapple is actually notoriously difficult to digest. Since humans don't digest cellulose, the fibers will remain in the duodenum for a length of time depending on the toughness of the texture. Pineapple has one of the toughest fiber textures among common fruits, but as the DA's index tells us, there was also grape skin identified - there's plenty of cellulose fibers in that. The chyme is described in the autopsy report as "yellow to light green-tan", so grapes would be a good candidate for the green color. The gastric emptying probably began within the hour, but the time in the duodenum? Based on my knowledge, it could well be 5 hours.



A coroner would not be the one to analyze the chyme, just make a note of what was identifiable. The rest is for further testing in laboratories. When food has been digested, it doesn't exactly come with neat labels for the coroner to read.



I have not relied on Paula Woodward's claims. I've relied on the scanned pages from the DA office's index of reports, that Woodward merely provided in her book. As I've said before, I don't actually agree with her that it was a fruit cocktail, since that contradicts the opinion of the experts regarding the nature of the pineapple - i.e. that it was probably fresh and not canned.



That's one way to ensure one never have to change one's mind, I suppose.

FergusMcDuck,

They're his former longjohns, handed down to JonBenet. The only way his DNA would still be on them was if he came into contact with JonBenet wearing them in normal sibling fashion, but in no way "should" there be his DNA on them.

Patently, they are his FORMER longjohns!

No cigar for that deduction.

You have not detailed WHY BR's DNA should NOT be on HIS longjohns?

The issue being, when did he last wear those longjohns, e.g. the day before JonBenet was killed, a week prior, etc.

Patsy's account is obviously self-serving, it offers BR an alibi.

And isn't that telling? There's no police report about the milk, no witness statement, no examination mentioning it.

This is because it took BPD WEEKS to realize the significance of the pineapple.

No Milk/Cream is not the issue. Its that Coroner Meyer found undigested pineapple in JonBenet's stomach!

A coroner would not be the one to analyze the chyme

It was identified as indigested FRESH pineapple. i.e. not out of a can.

Patsy is on record stating she purchased fresh pineapple the previous week, Safeways I think?

I have not relied on Paula Woodward's claims.

Of course you have, you reference her book.

Nobody else knows anything about a "fruit cocktail", its NOT in the Autopsy report so its NOT kosher!

That's one way to ensure one never have to change one's mind, I suppose.

I have changed my mind on numerous occassions.

I've gone from IDI to JDI to PDI and on to BDI.

The case is RDI, as there is ZERO forensic evidence that links to any person outside the Ramsey house.

.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

During one police interview Patsy said that there was a sack of old clothes at the bottom of the spiral staircase that she was giving away, and she could of gotten them from here. She'd know what was in there and very possible it had an old pair of Burkes long johns in it.

I could never understand why John Ramsey took his pants off to break the basement window to climb in there , and not the windows next to him.

Yeah Linda Hoffman said that Pasty told her what John liked and now all I think is Patsy on her knees. She also said that Pasty was drinking more than usual. Patsy and JonBenet had a fight on the twenty third over what Patsy wanted her to wear at the gingerbread house house party, and JonBenet gave in and wore the blue velvet dress.

Down here in the south we say stop being ugly which means stop acting up, and I wonder if Pasty said that to JonBenet that day and that was why JonBenet crying.

I think the pineapple was left out from their regular pancake breakfast Christmas morning and was forgotten. John and JonBenet made the pancakes and Burke and Pasty sat the table. And IIRC it was sweetened condensed milk not just plain milk. That could explain Burkes fingerprints.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,

Patently, they are his FORMER longjohns!

No cigar for that deduction.

You have not detailed WHY BR's DNA should NOT be on HIS longjohns?

Because they're handmedowns. They weren't his any longer. They were JonBenet's. Clothes get washed.

The issue being, when did he last wear those longjohns, e.g. the day before JonBenet was killed, a week prior, etc.

Since his DNA wasn't on them? Likely a long time before.

This is because it took BPD WEEKS to realize the significance of the pineapple.

No Milk/Cream is not the issue. Its that Coroner Meyer found undigested pineapple in JonBenet's stomach!

I took the time to quote from the actual autopsy report. Here, I'll do it again: "The yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple"

This was found in the duodenum, meaning it had already been dissolved into chyme in the stomach. Digestion is an ongoing process, and the pineapple was in the middle of it. So calling it undigested is misleading. Partially digested is more correct.

Glad we can skip the milk/cream. It just baffles me, the myths around this case.

It was identified as indigested FRESH pineapple. i.e. not out of a can.

Did you read my post before replying? That what I said. Well, not the undigested part, but that it was fresh, not canned.

Patsy is on record stating she purchased fresh pineapple the previous week, Safeways I think?

On record where?

Of course you have, you reference her book.

Nobody else knows anything about a "fruit cocktail", its NOT in the Autopsy report so its NOT kosher!

Yet the DA's office had the reports listed in their index. And like I said, I don't think it was a fruit cocktail.

The case is RDI, as there is ZERO forensic evidence that links to any person outside the Ramsey house.

Except the DNA found in a spot of blood in JonBenet's panties, enough for a profil to be entered into CODIS, a profile that excludes everyone living in the house, or those closely related to them.

So not zero.

 

[UKGuy]

Because they're handmedowns. They weren't his any longer. They were JonBenet's. Clothes get washed.



Since his DNA wasn't on them? Likely a long time before.



I took the time to quote from the actual autopsy report. Here, I'll do it again: "The yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple"

This was found in the duodenum, meaning it had already been dissolved into chyme in the stomach. Digestion is an ongoing process, and the pineapple was in the middle of it. So calling it undigested is misleading. Partially digested is more correct.

Glad we can skip the milk/cream. It just baffles me, the myths around this case.



Did you read my post before replying? That what I said. Well, not the undigested part, but that it was fresh, not canned.



On record where?



Yet the DA's office had the reports listed in their index. And like I said, I don't think it was a fruit cocktail.



Except the DNA found in a spot of blood in JonBenet's panties, enough for a profil to be entered into CODIS, a profile that excludes everyone living in the house, or those closely related to them.

So not zero.

FergusMcDuck,

Because they're handmedowns. They weren't his any longer. They were JonBenet's. Clothes get washed.

Who says? Patsy of course. The longjohns were Burke's and he could have redressed JonBenet in them, washed: who knows?

Since his DNA wasn't on them? Likely a long time before.

How do you know his DNA was not on them? If he redressed JonBenet in a pair straight from his drawer, his DNA will be there.

DNA can survive a machine wash. Did you not read about the recent recovery of ancient dna simply by sieving the strata relevant to millions of years ago, they found Mammoth, Horse, Insect DNA, etc.

On record where?

Quite likely a BPD interview as the information is so specific.

Yet the DA's office had the reports listed in their index. And like I said, I don't think it was a fruit cocktail.

The fruit cocktail is a non-starter, as only pineapple rind was found in JonBenet's stomach.

Except the DNA found in a spot of blood in JonBenet's panties, enough for a profil to be entered into CODIS, a profile that excludes everyone living in the house, or those closely related to them.

Who says, certainly not any CSI.

Perfect Murder Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller; Hardback pp 139.

During the same week, the CBI discovered that the stain on jonBenet's panties contained the DNA of more than one individual.

JonBenet's was the major component, but there was a minor component consisting of DNA from another person - or possibly more than one.

The latter part of the prior sentence is the important aspect, i.e. POSSIBLY MORE THAN ONE.

This is usually what everyone misses or glosses over.

So with multiple fragments of foreign DNA it was patched together to represent a valid entry for CODIS.

They never had full foreign profile of any DNA sample other than JonBenet's.

Also any of the foreign DNA might be simple environmental transfer when JonBenet visited the toilet at the White's or simply touched an item by hand that had those profiles on the surface, then deposited them onto her underwear as she used the toilet?

If I ever write a book on JonBenet I'll offer more explanatory detail, i.e. technical constraints as to why the CODIS entry is fake.

Accordingly There is ZERO forensic evidence linking to anyone outside the Ramsey household.

.

 

[UKGuy]

During one police interview Patsy said that there was a sack of old clothes at the bottom of the spiral staircase that she was giving away, and she could of gotten them from here. She'd know what was in there and very possible it had an old pair of Burkes long johns in it.

I could never understand why John Ramsey took his pants off to break the basement window to climb in there , and not the windows next to him.

Yeah Linda Hoffman said that Pasty told her what John liked and now all I think is Patsy on her knees. She also said that Pasty was drinking more than usual. Patsy and JonBenet had a fight on the twenty third over what Patsy wanted her to wear at the gingerbread house house party, and JonBenet gave in and wore the blue velvet dress.

Down here in the south we say stop being ugly which means stop acting up, and I wonder if Pasty said that to JonBenet that day and that was why JonBenet crying.

I think the pineapple was left out from their regular pancake breakfast Christmas morning and was forgotten. John and JonBenet made the pancakes and Burke and Pasty sat the table. And IIRC it was sweetened condensed milk not just plain milk. That could explain Burkes fingerprints.

ILikeToBendPages,

I could never understand why John Ramsey took his pants off to break the basement window to climb in there , and not the windows next to him.

Because he is covering for another family member. i.e. It was not broken the night JonBenet was murdered but way back in the summer when John decided to remove his pants. Similar to his story about being in his underwear so he could read the RN!

Patsy and JonBenet had a fight on the twenty third over what Patsy wanted her to wear at the gingerbread house house party, and JonBenet gave in and wore the blue velvet dress.

Something happened at the party because someone thought, "Hey I better dail 911."

A prelude to Christmas Night?

If the pineapple had been left out from the morning the condensed milk would have curdled!

JonBenet would not have touched it.

It was likely fresh out of the fridge. As Patsy patently knew nothing about it. Burke probably fetched it from the fridge and served it out to the breakfast bar. So explaining the oversized utensils and why BR's fingerprints are on the serving bowl and the tea-glass. Patsy described BR as the resident tea-drinker.

.