Lisa Irwin Disappearance - Thoughts and Theories ONLY!

[fraudqueen]

Just to let you know there is no written rule that says police can't lie to people during an interrogation. I have been involved in many and have watched many detectives lie to someone to get a confession. Of course they could tell her she didn't pass, even if she did. Even cops don't put much stock in polygraphs. They are not allowed in court. And of course cops scream and yell during questioning, a guilty person will crack more easily that way...they already feel remorse....unless a psychopath.
Will the cops tell the media or public they lie? Of course not. They don't want a future suspect to know they do that.


MOO

 

[waltzingmatilda]

These are not wealthy people. Jeremy hasn't been working since the baby went missing. I don't blame them for needing a source of income while looking for Baby Lisa. The normal, everyday expenses still continue, and then there are added costs when a child goes missing. They still have 2 other children to support. Money has to come from somewhere.

They will not get rich from Baby Lisa's ordeal. I don't think these 2 are sophisticated or twisted enough to plot a scheme involving a missing baby just to get some quick cash. Nothing about their lives so far would suggest such a thing....IMHO.

Thank you Ella Mae. I've been thinking the same thing. Nor am I bothered that the parents are only speaking to national msm outlets. The local news affiliates can always air the story from the network. These parents still have two other children to care for and probably don't have the time or energy to speak with every jack legged news reporter that comes along asking for an interview. MOO

wm

 

[lag28wa]

Sorry this is a little OT but I didn't know where else to put it. I know in some of the other threads there were some people expressing frustration over not seeing Amber Alerts for all states unless you go looking for them.

Just wanted to let people know, for those of you that have a Facebook Account, if you "like" or "join" the Amber Alert on Facebook page you will get notifications of every Amber Alert issued, every state. And it's set up so that if you don't like to receive the emails from Facebook and have them turned off, the Amber Alerts will still go through (which is fine with me, these are the only emails I get from Facebook).

Just in case anyone was interested!

Mods feel free to move this to a more appropriate spot!

 

[GourmetSoy]

As far as theories go, I had thought early on that this was possibly an accident due to neglect of some sort whether it was intentional or not which caused DB to hide it because she didn't want to lose custody of her other child. As time goes on I would think that the guilt would have gotten to her and she would have broken by now and told what happened.

Now I find myself hopping from one side of the fence to the other. :fence:

This really could be a case of an abduction and in that case I feel guilty for thinking DB could be involved or knows what happened to little Lisa. None of us as parents want to believe that a mother could harm her own child or cover up an accident. From what I have seen, I see nothing but a child that was well cared for and loved. Unless I've missed it, I'm not seeing anyone that knows the family come forward and say otherwise either. The circumstances surrounding her disappearance are puzzling to say the least, lots of coincidences and firsts. That is hard for me to wrap my mind around because it doesn't make sense that nothing was heard. LE is keeping pretty tight lipped, there has to much more that they know and aren't releasing(obviously). For myself, I need to remember that this family has lost a precious little girl in one way or another and also that Lisa needs to be found and that is top priority. I do see LE is working tirelessly to find her.

I hope they find her very soon and safe, and if she is no longer with us then I hope they find her soon also so that there is a greater chance the person responsible will be held accountable.

Just felt the need to put that into words.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

BBM:

Your post just reminded me of something I have been wanting to point out for some time now.

DB had kept stating (in videos, IIRC) that LE told her she had failed the polygraph but did not show her proof. Those are not the exact words, but were words to that effect.

LE never shows the person taking the polygraph proof of passing or failing. I have a great friend I worked with here in Louisiana who is a polygrapher who went to Dallas to work for the PD there. He continues to train at Quantico in his field. He can go on all day long about how far the polygraph has evolved and so forth. More reliable results are obtained now. AND he will also tell you that LE does not show anyone proof of the results. He says that LE will tell you (most of the time) if you fail. They will also more or less clear you if you pass if everything else you have said pans out.

I highly doubt LE stood over DB saying, "You killed her (Baby Lisa)! You did it!" I am also sure that DB and JI had food if they wanted it, stretch breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. This woman is not telling the truth in relation to her LE inerviews, IMO, and LE knows it. They probably did tell her that there were inconsistances in her stories. They may have also told her that the circumstances did not ring true, but no way do I believe LE accused her of killing Baby Lisa.

IMO, DB did not murder her baby, but something happened and she is not being truthful. OD, accident, hoax for money, or whatever, but DB is in it.

MOO

With the latest revelation that bulk baby food was bought at the store (by Dan Abrams on GMA this morning) I am in agreement that this does not look like 1st Degree murder at this time.

First degree murder is the most serious charge a defendant can face, and it’s defined by the Missouri Legislature as "knowingly" causing the death of another "after deliberation upon the matter." This charge also carries the potential for the ultimate consequence if a defendant is convicted- the death penalty.

http://www.johnpicerno.com/topics/homicide.html

2nd Degree murder in Missouri is defined as:

Second degree murder, penalty.
565.021. 1. A person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if he:

(1) Knowingly causes the death of another person or, with the purpose of causing serious physical injury to another person, causes the death of another person; or

(2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony.

2. Murder in the second degree is a class A felony, and the punishment for second degree murder shall be in addition to the punishment for commission of a related felony or attempted felony, other than murder or manslaughter.

3. Notwithstanding section 556.046 and section 565.025, in any charge of murder in the second degree, the jury shall be instructed on, or, in a jury-waived trial, the judge shall consider, any and all of the subdivisions in subsection 1 of this section which are supported by the evidence and requested by one of the parties or the court.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5650000021.htm

IMO, second degree murder is quite possible as a charge, depending on how the investigation unfolds.

Second Degree Murder
Second degree murder in Missouri is a somewhat-lesser charge than first degree, and is usually the charge when there is some evidence of the absence of intent. Regardless, second degree murder is still a Class A felony, and a defendant can also be charged with second degree murder if someone accidentally dies during the commission of another felony.

http://www.johnpicerno.com/topics/homicide.html

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Just a little brainstorming here.

1. The new kitten
2. Son found in room with her.
3. The wine

How hard was it for DB to be alone at night? Were the above 3 items a solution to being alone?

How much wine did she drink? What does her friend have to say about that who was there?

Was Debbie on medication? Was she on anti-depressants? Was she on medication that is a toxic cocktail when combined with alcohol? She has excellent health coverage being that she is still under her military husband's plan, IMO. It is possible she took advantage of this with getting a prescription for any emotional issues she had, if any.

Was the baby hard to deal with that night? Was she coughing from her illness? Did DB have to deal with this while intoxicated?

MOO.

 

[mrye4709]

As far as theories go, I had thought early on that this was possibly an accident due to neglect of some sort whether it was intentional or not which caused DB to hide it because she didn't want to lose custody of her other child. As time goes on I would think that the guilt would have gotten to her and she would have broken by now and told what happened.

Now I find myself hopping from one side of the fence to the other. :fence:

This really could be a case of an abduction and in that case I feel guilty for thinking DB could be involved or knows what happened to little Lisa. None of us as parents want to believe that a mother could harm her own child or cover up an accident. From what I have seen, I see nothing but a child that was well cared for and loved. Unless I've missed it, I'm not seeing anyone that knows the family come forward and say otherwise either. The circumstances surrounding her disappearance are puzzling to say the least, lots of coincidences and firsts. That is hard for me to wrap my mind around because it doesn't make sense that nothing was heard. LE is keeping pretty tight lipped, there has to much more that they know and aren't releasing(obviously). For myself, I need to remember that this family has lost a precious little girl in one way or another and also that Lisa needs to be found and that is top priority. I do see LE is working tirelessly to find her.

I hope they find her very soon and safe, and if she is no longer with us then I hope they find her soon also so that there is a greater chance the person responsible will be held accountable.

Just felt the need to put that into words.

I see no indication that she was neglected. I know people can snap, but I just can't see that in this case.

1. Both bio parents, no step as in alot of the cases.

2. The videos show great interaction between mom and baby.

3. Alot of family around, so good support system.

4. SAHM, so less stress than someone trying to work and take care of a home and 3 kids.

5. The fact that she DID go to the store w/o kids shows that she does get breaks from the kids, no 24/7.

6. No one has come forward with anything bad to say at all about these parents, other than the "ruthless" custody battle claim, and I don't put much thought into that since it wasn't contested. I think if that mom had been threatened or such she would be all over the media making her claim and trying to get her child back.

7. In the videos, Lisa is playing and cooing, it looks as if she is the princess of the family. The bottle in the video is Dr. Brown, cuts down on colic and spit up, and makes me think they have gone the extra mile to keep princess happy and well. They look like a normal, mid american family to me.

There are probably more reasons i'm not seeing it, but i'm trying to get things done around the house, so i'll post more if I think about them.

I don't like the way media handles missing children. They don't seem to care about facts. I sit here yelling at my tv at some of the TH's, lol.

BTW, whoever sent the emails to FOX correcting the "unidentified" man, THANK YOU!!

 

[LionKing]

I think I will hang with the police and say... yep... the mom.
V/r LionKing

 

[keeponsearching]

Argh can you imagine what stuff the media could pull up if you were missing someone. I can see it now, so and so enjoyed crimes, and would daily read about them eeekkkk

 

[Boodles]

With the latest revelation that bulk baby food was bought at the store (by Dan Abrams on GMA this morning) I am in agreement that this does not look like 1st Degree murder at this time.

I had not heard about this. Could you please elaborate?

 

[tlcya]

I did not read or hear anything released as to the amount of baby items being considered bulk but baby items were indeed purchased. baby wipes and baby foods were among items bought during the wine shopping trip with DB's brother.

I haven't seen it indicated anywhere that there was a large quantity of them purchased but agree that buying baby items would seem to indicate a living Lisa at 5pm Monday.

 

[curiositycat]

Last night, out of the blue at the dinner table, my husband gave me his "theory."

"The dad did it" I said, "Why, do you think that?" Hubby said, "He's acting guilty as h377"

My first instinct was the mother, but she seems to be totally in love with that baby. That doesn't mean she didn't or could not have snapped.

I vote for the dad for now. No tears, no emotion, cold fish that only hugs mom once, seems a bit controlling to me(just a vibe I get) JMOO

 

[neesaki]

I appreciate your post. You have outlined and put into words many of my same concerns about this case. I agree there is something not right with the whole scenario that the parents have claimed happened. Their demeanor also just isn't right for a parent who has had a beloved baby stolen from them, where is the fear, the concern, the worry, the pain, the agony? It's not there, IMO.

Baby Lisa didn't make a sound and she was sick with a cold? I don't believe it unless she was already expired, though I pray not. When my son was a baby my ears were trained from the time of his birth so I would hear him if he awakened and made even the tiniest peep during the night. On the diagram of their house layout, the baby's room is right beside the parents. One would be able to hear pretty much everything, even without the baby monitor.

Husband away at night for the first time and she didn't have a working phone right beside the bed in case she needed it? Highly unbelieveable.

Dogs not only hear everything at night, but their sense of smell is absolutely amazing. Yet they say a stranger came into their house and turned on the lights and walked around the house like they owned the place and the dog didn't alert? I don't believe it.

Husband away at night for the first time and she left, not the back door, but the front door unlocked while alone at night with three children in the house? That may be the most unbelievable for me. When my son was a baby until he was grown and gone and especially when my husband was working out of town, I was always at my most hypervigilant. Double and triple checked the door locks.

Did you read the facebook posts by the mother's (DB's) uncle Johnny? He is saying something in those posts, almost as if he knows what happened, talking about their dysfunctional family and how it didn't all start on October 4th but before that. Rather eerie, IMO.

That is very interesting about your dream about the baby, and your precognitive dreams in general. I'm sure that haunts you. You mention that someone felt like they had forgotten about her. I have thought this, that maybe a family member took her or arranged it because they saw or thought she was not being cared for, maybe even some sort of abuse. I pray this is the case. Like you, I think the parents know much more than they're saying. Hope and pray that baby Lisa is found safe soon.

One other alternative that could possibly change my opinion would be if as some have suggested, DB drank too much that night and passed out . JMO

 

[joyless]

MOO these parents know what happened and now they are letting the circus begin because they know the more distractions...the more time passes...even when she is found (and Im sorry to say this but I believe she is no longer Living) the evidence starts to disappear as time goes on...as we saw with poor Caylee. I will stick my foot In my own mouth if suddenly there is evidence of an abduction....that poor child...so sad and now she will be abused all over again by the circus her parents hide behind. My opinion only - popular or not, I say the parents KNOW.

 

[MissJames]

Well, then I have had 3 unusual babies then. None of mine slept for 10-12 hours at a time, and none of my grandbabies did when I was around either. I am not saying babies don't sleep that many hours, but none I know do.

Besides, Baby Lisa had a cold and cough. I doubt she would be sleeping normally.

BTW, MissJames, bless you for what you have done for children. I have been wanting to say that to you for some time now!

MOO

Thank you!

Not all babies are the same and not all moms are the same. Some mom's sleep so lightly that a baby barely stirring would wake them.Other mom's sleep harder and the baby that stirs slightly may go back to sleep.
My ,now 11 yr old coughs like a seal barking ,croupy. He's always slept through it. None of my other kids slept well when they had colds.
My youngest grandchild goes to bed between 7-7:30 and gets up at 6 am when her parents get up. I don't know where they get it from ,but both of my oldest daughters have a rigid schedule for naps and bedtime.

http://www.babysleepsite.com/schedules/10-month-old-schedule/


10 month old’s sleep

At this age, most 10 month olds can sleep through the night, without a feeding, and take two naps for a total of 2 to 2 1/2 hours per day plus 11-12 hours at night. A very small percentage transition to one nap as early as 10 months, but not many, so assume 2 naps unless you are certain. Most babies get very very overtired and sleep can spiral out of control, so I always recommend keeping two naps as long as possible as the average age to transition to one nap is 15-18 months. If you’re having trouble with naps, you might be interested in helping your baby nap.

 

[MissJames]

BBM

When my kids were babies I went to bed and slept until I heard them, 1 hr or 8 hrs. It's not like someone goes to bed and sets an alarm to get up and check on their baby, there are exceptions to that of course (preemies and other health conditions). If baby Lisa had been sick mom may have been up for a few nights and since she didn't hear anything on this night she finally slept good. She said she checked on her at 10:30 and then went to bed herself. I'm sure she expected to be woke up by her, but it's not like she would stay up and just wait on the baby to cry.

My daughter was in the NICU for 2 weeks with some minor issues and when we finally brought her home she slept all night the FIRST night. When I woke up at 6am I freaked out and ran and picked her up, thinking the worst. Scared that poor baby so bad she never slept through the night again, lol, at least not until 9 mths old.

Same here.My youngest was in the nicu for 11 mos. but his breathing has always been so loud I can hear him from my bedroom. My problem was constantly counting how rapid his breathing was!

And as for the foster babies and my other children,I've been known to wake them up because they were sleeping so well I had to make sure they were okay. :crazy:

 

[MissJames]

I've been grappling with whether or not I should share this. I've decided
to share some of what happened to us yesterday morning.
My youngest is medically complicated and developmentally disabled. He's been very healthy for years now.
We had, what could have been, a medical emergency as we were getting ready for school. He had a seizure ,but we weren't sure what was happening at the time.

Because we have a routine I was barely registering what exactly was going on .My husband and I were focused on the news because of the blackberry e-mail problem.
I won't go into any more detail and my son is fine,but what I discovered was,I can't tell you when he came down and got on the couch behind me or when the seizure started.I can't tell you if he had any jerking prior to when I realized he was limp. I can't even relate for sure the sequence that things happened in from the moment I realized something was wrong to when we got in the car.
When my husband and I were discussing it last night he commented about having his ear to our son's chest to listen(and feel) for his breathing ,I didn't remember him doing that! But I was right there .I never left him.

Now, my husband and 11 yr old can relate what happened completely,but ,even though I was calm on the outside and did all the right things,I was freaking out somewhere in my brain,or maybe it was my heart.

I couldn't help but relate it all to this case and some of our expectations about the parents ,what's hinky and what's not.
I'm still on the fence but trying not to judge some of the details.

 

[LancelotLink]

As phoney as I find the mother and her teary interviews, I can not wrap my head around her doing anything harmful to this child. My theory is going to have to be that she and the baby's father have come to a fork in the road and fearing that he will gain custody of Lisa, as he has gained custody of his other son(s), she has with the help of someone, possibly another SO, spirited the child to another location and has successfully gained media attention and money.

 

[linda505]

I am beginning to believe that this may be an abduction/kidnapping by either a known or unknown person. I may be just doing some wishful thinking but here are my reasons.

1. Lack of any real information coming from LE - if there has been some communication from kidnappers they may have demanded no media release of the circumstances - this would also explain the limited interviews/sighting of Lisa's parents.

2. I know there has been teams of LE searching - but the fact that they allowed that abandoned house to be demolished makes me think that the search there that day was more for show. I don't think it would have been hard to get the city to hold off for a bit to make sure that there weren't any clues there.

3. The threat analysis specialist - she would definetly be a big asset to the family if they had some sort of contact from someone who might have been involved.

4. A wealthy benefactor - somehow connected to the family...if this connection was known by someone who knew the family - there could have been the assumption that this person would come to the rescue - maybe done just for the reward money.

Just hopeful thinking here...because this scenario in my mind is more likely to return a safe Lisa than others that I can think of...

 

[HatesSociopaths]

As phoney as I find the mother and her teary interviews, I can not wrap my head around her doing anything harmful to this child. My theory is going to have to be that she and the baby's father have come to a fork in the road and fearing that he will gain custody of Lisa, as he has gained custody of his other son(s), she has with the help of someone, possibly another SO, spirited the child to another location and has successfully gained media attention and money.

Thanks. Respectfully want to respond to this and give my thoughts on it.

IMO, Debbie would not equate Jeremy getting custody of his son with automatically being able get custody of Lisa. She would have to be uninformed to reach that conclusion. The other mother did not even show up to the custody hearing.

The idea that Debbie would think she could at some later date re-join with Lisa is also far-fetched, IMO. That would likely send her to prison and she would know that.

This is a homicide case, IMO.