Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

[katiewonders]

Cinda Pallett and Charlotte Kinsey went to the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds and phoned home to say they had a job with a man there. They were never seen again.

This was 1981 and the girls were both 13.

From what I just read about this case, Welch isn't the guy.

 

[gregjrichards]

I am shocked at today's news it was not what I was expecting at all. It is very logical that the person's of interest could have done this. I can't believe a woman may have been involved in this case because it is very rare. I can only think of a few woman involved in crimes like this Myra Hindley and Rose West in the UK for example.

I wonder what caused the detectives to reach the conclusion that these people are of interest and what the two men who are living may have said so far. Based on the press conference I assume they have not said a great deal. I respect the detectives decision not to reveal this as it may be detrimental to the cases.

I hope there is a way to get them to talk about any involvement they may have had but I imagine it is going to be very difficult to get them to do so. Many of these individuals enjoy the fact they know what happened and the victims families and police don't.

Obviously there is a lot of information that we can go through and most of you are great investigators and research loads of information. If there is any way I can assist please let me know.

I very much hope the crimes these persons of interest could have done come to light, that the victims families get answers about what happened to their love ones and any remains are found to be given proper burials.

My thoughts and prayers are with Lyon sisters family tonight and in the time ahead and with all the other families wondering if these people harmed their loved ones.

 

[Richard]

This "New" Sketch

After some searching, I was able to locate a previous reference to the sketch MCP showed today in their briefing on Welch. It appeared in the news media on or about 22 November 2013. Note that NO mention of the Lyon case was made at that time.

The write-up about the sketch of a young, long haired man indicated in November that it was a "RE-RELEASE" of the sketch, but I have never seen it in any articles or in connection with stories about the Lyon Case. If it wasn't a "re-release" then, I guess that technically it is now - but again see below and check the link to see that no mention of the Lyon Case was made by MCP in regard to this "new" sketch.

There was a lot of confusion in the news media over references to how Welch looks like the sketch. Many TV stations in the Washington DC area were flashing old file photos of the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) sketch during the press briefing. This led some viewers to be confused as to whether or not this Welch guy was the Tape Recorder Man. More on that later.

The "new" sketch's caption describes a white male, 5 feet 11 inches tall, 140 pounds, age late teens to early twenties. Acne on face. Scars on left cheekbone. Wearing light colored Peters Jacket. Blue and White horizontal stripe shirt and white pants.

Below is the information released by MCP to the public last November:

----------------------------
quote

23 November 2013

Police in Montgomery County have released a sketch of a man sought in sex assaults during the mid-1970s, hoping the image will jog someone's memory of events four decades ago.

Detectives from the Montgomery County Cold Case Unit re-released the composite drawing Friday. The man shown is suspected in sexual assaults in Wheaton, Silver Spring and Takoma Park.

Detectives in the 1970s had spoken to a witness who described the man seen near an incident in Wheaton. The composite was created 30 years ago.

Detectives believe that there may be additional victims and say they hope any victims come forward.The man was described (in the mid-1970s) as a white male, in his late teens or early-20s, 5 feet 11 inches tall, and weighing about 140 pounds. He had acne scars on the left side of his face.

Anyone with information regarding the identity of the subject is asked to contact the Cold Case Unit at 240-773-5070.

unquote

LINK:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...Assault-Suspect-from-the-1970s-233116121.html

 

[woodlawn]

BBM Do you have a source, Woodlawn, for this statement or is it your opinion? Thanks.

I don't want to derail this thread...this study: http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

is long, but one I'm sure many folks here are familiar with (or if one is not, should take the time to read). From the Executive Summary:

"The average age of killers of abducted children is around 27 years old. They are predominantly unmarried (85%) and half of them (51%) either live alone (17%) or with their parents (34%). Half of them are unemployed, and those that are employed work in unskilled or semi-skilled labor occupations. Therefore, the killers can generally be characterized as "social marginals."

I had other issues with the whole TRM scenario, but certainly one was, such an individual 'doesn't fit the profile'. It was my considered opinion, perhaps.

 

[distracted 1976]

I wish they had given the name of the carnival company and the years Lloyd and Helen worked with the carnival.

Also, I think we should definitely include any cases in North Carolina.

Agreed ClaireNC. Clover SC, one of the places he is listed as having been, is very near the NC boarder for those not familiar with NC/SC. Lots of criminals relied on the lack of information going between states to stay "hidden" if you will, especially the years he appears to have been active.

 

[~n/t~]

This "New" Sketch

After some searching, I was able to locate a previous reference to the sketch MCP showed today in their briefing on Welch. It appeared in the news media on or about 22 November 2013. Note that NO mention of the Lyon case was made at that time.

The write-up about the sketch of a young, long haired man indicated in November that it was a "RE-RELEASE" of the sketch, but I have never seen it in any articles or in connection with stories about the Lyon Case. If it wasn't a "re-release" then, I guess that technically it is now - but again see below and check the link to see that no mention of the Lyon Case was made by MCP in regard to this "new" sketch.

There was a lot of confusion in the news media over references to how Welch looks like the sketch. Many TV stations in the Washington DC area were flashing old file photos of the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) sketch during the press briefing. This led some viewers to be confused as to whether or not this Welch guy was the Tape Recorder Man. More on that later.

The "new" sketch's caption describes a white male, 5 feet 11 inches tall, 140 pounds, age late teens to early twenties. Acne on face. Scars on left cheekbone. Wearing light colored Peters Jacket. Blue and White horizontal stripe shirt and white pants.

Below is the information released by MCP to the public last November:

----------------------------
quote

23 November 2013

Police in Montgomery County have released a sketch of a man sought in sex assaults during the mid-1970s, hoping the image will jog someone's memory of events four decades ago.

Detectives from the Montgomery County Cold Case Unit re-released the composite drawing Friday. The man shown is suspected in sexual assaults in Wheaton, Silver Spring and Takoma Park.

Detectives in the 1970s had spoken to a witness who described the man seen near an incident in Wheaton. The composite was created 30 years ago.

Detectives believe that there may be additional victims and say they hope any victims come forward.The man was described (in the mid-1970s) as a white male, in his late teens or early-20s, 5 feet 11 inches tall, and weighing about 140 pounds. He had acne scars on the left side of his face.

Anyone with information regarding the identity of the subject is asked to contact the Cold Case Unit at 240-773-5070.

unquote

LINK:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...Assault-Suspect-from-the-1970s-233116121.html

Wow. That was only 2 months ago. What was the incident that caused them to release this one 30 years later? As you say no reference to the Lyon girls.

 

[Kodiak]

I really hope this lead on the POI will break this case wide open. I see this POI was living in Austin, Texas in January 1974. Anyone know if he was still in that area in December 1974? Because if he was, he could also be a POI in the Missing Trio case in Forth Worth. Both cases just three months apart--and very identical... open malls... two girls vanish in one case... three girls in the other. I have always believed these two cases were related.

 

[~n/t~]

I really hope this lead on the POI will break this case wide open. I see this POI was living in Austin, Texas in January 1974. Anyone know if he was still in that area in December 1974? Because if he was, he could also be a POI in the Missing Trio case in Forth Worth. Both cases just three months apart--and very identical... open malls... two girls vanish in one case... three girls in the other. I have always believed these two cases were related.

If you go to the main page of this forum, you'll see a list of states. I posted the missing trio for Texas. I also believe there are similarities. Welch worked for a carnival. If we can find out if there was a carnival in Texas the year the girls disappeared we may be closer to solving this case as well.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If you go to the main page of this forum, you'll see a list of states. I posted the missing trio for Texas. I also believe there are similarities. Welch worked for a carnival. If we can find out if there was a carnival in Texas the year the girls disappeared we may be closer to solving this case as well.

It would be awesome to know who he worked for. Carnivals are big attractions for teen girls. IT would be awesome to be able to carnival arrivals with missing girls.

 

[Dogface]

I wish we had a list of vehicles he was known to have owned.

 

[hollye]

Another photo of Welch from 2008

http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/2014/02/10/development-in-lyon-sisters-disappearance/5378293/


Hollye

 

[Dogface]

Could we get an "other states" thread? I was thinking about his trips across the country and have been pulling missing cases from the two most likely routes he would have traveled if he drove.

 

[bessie]

Could we get an "other states" thread? I was thinking about his trips across the country and have been pulling missing cases from the two most likely routes he would have traveled if he drove.

Dogface, why don't you post them in the California thread for the time being. We can move them later if necessary.

 

[Richard]

Mileski - Welch Connection?


There has been a great deal of information released today about Lloyd Welch, along with the announcement that he is a person of interest in the disappearance of Kate and Sheila Lyon in 1975.

While he seems a proper candidate for the position of "potential suspect", I have some doubts. The strongest of those doubts would be first his age in March of 1975, and secondly would be numerous statements about him hitch hiking to get places.

At age 17 and a half, he does not fit the general profile of a well organized, experienced killer who is capable of abducting and murdering two young girls in broad daylight, leaving no trace what-so-ever.

As has been mentioned and discussed by numerous posters over the years, to effect a successful abduction in this case, one would almost have to have a motor vehicle to get the girls out of the area quickly. If Welch had such a vehicle, why was he always hitch hiking?

Is there any evidence that he lived in one of the houses along the route the girls took to their home?

Of course, one could argue that Welch has proven by his subsequent behavior and crimes that he is capable of cold blooded abductions, rape, and murder - but had he evolved to that level by age 17?

Did Welch always work alone, or did he have partners? If he had partners in crime, could he have been part of a team acting together to abduct Sheila and Kate?

Obviously, the police have infomation or evidence which they have not shared with the public to date. So I am hesitant to completely disregard Welch as a potential suspect.

Somebody has talked, and police are anxious to corroborate their information. The first "Re-release" of the Long Hair Sketch last November was a fishing expedition in which police hoped to find other potential victims of Welch. Now they have decided to come out and seek information by specifically citing the Lyon Case. One has to wonder why they have taken so long to even show the sketch to the public.

There are some intriguing coincidences and possibilities, however.

One of the previously considered potential suspects was a guy named Raymond Mileski. Mileski murdered members of his own family in 1977 and was sentenced to life in Maryland Prison. In April of 1982, Mileski was identified as being connected to the Lyon sisters' disappearance in some way by other inmates. His former home and yard in Suitland Maryland was dug up by MCP looking for bodies. None were found.

In 2002, Mileski claimed in two letters that he had met the guy who abducted the Lyon Sisters "in the pen". He identified this person only as "C. D." and stated that he wanted a prison transfer in exchange for his information. Was Mileski only making it all up for a better deal, or had he actually met such a person? Was that person Welch? Note that Welch began his Maryland prison stay in April 1982 - the same month and year that Mileski came to light as a Person of Interest.

Mileski died in prison in 2004. He had gotten the transfer he desired, so it is possible that MCP did in fact speak with him about the Lyon Case.

There is much more information about Mileski in early posts in this forum. One strong "coincidence" is that after the Tape Recorder Man story and sketch was in the news media in April 1975, about 15 other people came forward to state that they, too, had seen such a person at other times and in other malls.

While there were several earlier sightings of a Tape Recorder Man at Wheaton Plaza, there were even more such sightings at Iverson Mall and Marlow Heights Shopping Center in Prince Georges County (just south of Washington DC). Those two malls were only a short distance from Mileski's home and business.

Mileski employed a teen aged boy in his business and the boy (a school drop out) lived in his house with him. Is it possible that he might have known Welch in 1975?

 

[spcagrl]

here it is!

http://www.fbi.gov/baltimore/press-...napping-of-lyon-sisters-others-victims-sought

Now I am totally creeped out, I grew up in Hyattsville and this guy looks familiar to me......I lived on 43rd Ave, just a block off Baltimore Ave.....

 

[ktgirl]

Sorry if this has been posted- from http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f4d856-9330-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

Welch’s niece, Debbie Roe, 38, of Dover, Del., said she is the only member of the family who is in regular contact with him......She said that Welch has denied involvement in the disappearance of the Lyon girls but told her that he was at Wheaton Plaza that day.
“The only thing he said he did was walk around the mall,” Roe said. “I think they need to look elsewhere. He doesn’t know where the girls are.”

I believe Welch is most likely responsible for the disappearance of the Lyon girls.
1. He was at the mall that day (by his own admission).
2. He's a convicted sex offender.
Those two facts together are pretty darn convincing to me that he's the guy.

God bless those detectives working the cold cases who never gave up on these girls, even decades after they disappeared.

 

[ktgirl]

I also wonder how long Helen Craver was his girlfriend for?

And how and when she died?

All it lists is that Helen was born in 1953 and died in 2009...

There is a Helen Jean Carver born in 1954 who died in 2010 in Ohio. This appears to be the only Helen Craver within the age range who has died. Question is--did they get married? Her "other" known name is Helen Welch.

Whether Helen Craver was born in 1953 or 1954 and died in either 2009 or 2010....she died fairy young....somewhere between ages 55 - 57, depending on which years you use for the birth or the death.

The average life expectancy of a woman in the US is 81 (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/life-expectancy-map/), so she died around 25 years before the average American woman. Obviously there are reasons like untreatable cancers, etc., as well as lifestyle choices, that could cause someone to die so relatively young.....but I really do wonder.....

ETA: I just realized Lloyd Welch was in prison when she died. Never mind where this was going....

 

[Richard]

...
... I believe Welch is most likely responsible for the disappearance of the Lyon girls.
1. He was at the mall that day (by his own admission).
2. He's a convicted sex offender.
Those two facts together are pretty darn convincing to me that he's the guy....

Unfortunately, even if the two things are true beyond a doubt, they do not constitute proof of any crime. They certainly are reason to investigate further, but the rules of evidence are pretty strict.

Welch may have been at Wheaton Plaza that day, but so were thousands of other people. That circumstance alone is not sufficient to establish any guilt. Now, couple that alleged admission with someone positively sighting him there AND possibly approaching the girls, talking to them, etc, and you build your case. BUT still you would have to prove that he abducted the girls, and or killed them. And there is just no forensic evidence of that yet.

Welch being a sex offender is another factor which makes him a viable suspect. But, again, it is not proof. In a trial, you cannot present misconduct not specifically charged. In fact, even when someone is convicted of an offense and the trial moves to sentencing phase, a defense lawyer would argue against the jury hearing of any sex offenses which took place AFTER the crime he is convicted of, because it is prejudicial. Theoretically, a person might kill someone and LATER become a sex offender. The two crimes (it would be argued) are mutually exclusive.

This is in fact what happened with Fred Coffey. He was first convicted of sexual misconduct with children (occurred in 1986). Next, he was convicted of the 1979 murder of a child. In sentencing, the jury heard all about the sex offense convictions and took those into consideration when they voted to give Coffey the death penalty. Coffey was granted a retrial which excluded mention of the sex offenses, and the new jury sentenced him to Life in Prison.

That said, it is indeed significant that this Welch has an evil background and that he might be proven to have been at Wheaton Plaza that day in 1975.

I believe that there are some other potential suspects who are more likely than Welch. Unfortunately police have not proven that any of them were actually at Wheaton Plaza that day.

 

[Starry Night]

Is there any hard evidence to name him person of interest?

 

[gregjrichards]

I wonder where he stayed when in Maryland at a girlfriend’s place family member’s place, a friend’s, rented apartment, mobile home park or even a boarding house?

Do we know why he was in the plaza that day and who he was with and if he spoke to anyone? Was there a ride he was operating at the plaza? If so I wondered what time did the plaza close that day would the ride have been closing when the girls were leaving?

If he has a type of girl he abuses and if the Lyon sisters fit his type?

I wonder how the crimes he has been convicted of occurred and how the victims escaped from him?

I wondered if he was a member of a pedophile ring & if so did someone he knew talk?

Is he in jail for life or will he be up for parole sometime?

Sorry if these questions have already been considered they are just points I thought of.

It’s encouraging how many people know about this case online based on the comments under articles and remember it well. Hopefully someone will know some piece of information.