Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

[j123]

I don't know if it's just speculation, but hasn't it been said that LLW was not the brightest bulb? Depending on the extent of his mental deficiency, it wouldn't surprise me if he really didn't "get" why he couldn't (or shouldn't) call in a tip and get the money. Just like the people who fall for pyramid schemes, either because of extreme naivete or pure stupidity, LLW was probably just looking to make a quick buck.

Basically, I don't think anyone should read too far into the fact alone that he called in. Where and when he did, what he said, etc. is all obviously pertinent information. But what seems obvious to us (i.e. calling in a tip for a crime you were involved in is not in LLW's best interest) might not have been to LLW in 1975. Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't the first and only time he'd tried something like that. He could have called in dozens of fake tips for cases he had nothing to do with in the past, just like this investigation must have received its own share of false information, fake ransoms, etc. Obviously, what he said this time caught the police's attention; this time he finally had real information. If it was, in fact, not his first time, the police might have even been able to cross-reference this tip with others he'd called in, which were probably vague and ridiculous in comparison. Or, if he'd never done it before, then the reward may have caught his eye because he paid special attention to this case that he didn't with others.

One peripheral detail that ties into this is the quote from his stepmother who didn't actually believe he knew anything. This is part of why I came to speculate this; the important information I got out of that quote was that calling in a fake tip was not out of character for LLW. I doubt any of the people here discussing the case would even think of doing something like that; if we called in a tip for a crime, our friends and family would have no reason to doubt us. We can't apply the same logic when speculating about LLW, because he probably didn't apply much logic himself.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I know some about law enforcement and the court system but not a whole lot.
I guess the rule still stands of Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

It seems that being called "A Person of Interest" is the step taken before calling
someone a suspect. Or in Maryland, is that term suspect no longer used?

I guess websleuths would be equivalent to investigators trying
to gather the evidence to help LE to be able to charge a person
of interest with the crime.

But, obviously, there has to be good evidence or witness testimony.

Did LE validate that LLW was seen watching the girls?
Didn't the girls have a friend they walked around with?
And wasn't it she that reported that LLW followed them?

Also, what about the comment made somewhere that, was it Sheila
looked very worried or frightened?
Wasn't that when she was by the Easter Bunny?

Just trying to clarify.

Where are you Richard? You do so well with documenting
what was said and where it was reported.

 

[steveP120]

While Lloyd Welch was and is not that smart, he might have some street smarts.

I would GUESS the conversation on the couch with his girlfriend and step-mother in the room went something like this?

(TV news on girls and reward)
"Lloyd. Were you at Wheaton Plaza that day."
Lloyd quickly thinks of if he should lie or tell the truth and realizes many people saw him at mall maybe including his uncle.
"yea, I was there"
"Did you see the girls or see anything?"
Lloyd again quickly thinks if he should lie or tell the truth.
"I saw a lot of girls. I think I saw them."
"Did you see anything suspicious?"
"Maybe. Many people were there looking at pretty girls."
"Maybe you should call the police and tell them what you saw"
"Yea. Maybe I'll get the reward."

From the step-mothers assumption that Lloyd knew nothing, I would read into it that Lloyd often made boastful claims that were not true, but I don't think the untruths were prior tips-to-police. It is my GUESS Lloyed lied about many things and would tell the truth only when it was in his own interest to do so.

At this point, Lloyd if guilty, may be thinking I should act like an innocent person and call the police even just to give useless information so that he looks innocent to his family and the police.

It's possible, but one would have to be a total idiot to think getting a reward for a crime you did is likely.

We are still not certain that Lloyd call the police with a tip; all we know is that the police have his address on that date, would could have come from some other contact with the police.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I believe I saw it stated in news media that since RAW, Sr. was named a POI, that about 6 reports came in
from women claiming that they had been stopped by a security guard who accused them of stealing something.

Does it strike anyone that LLW and his uncle who is the POI, we're most likely working as a team at
Wheaton Plaza? Very convenient to use his uncle's security guard position as a 2nd helper.

 

[steveP120]

I the past year since Montgomery County Maryland introduced the plastic bag tax to incentivize people to use reusable bags, I have been stopped twice by a security guard at the local Giant store, who asked to see what I have in my bag. Stopping people is what security guards do, although I suppose in the 70s they openly profiled teenagers and minorities as being more likely to shoplift.

Just because minor crimes and misbehaviors happen more, I could easily see Lloyd working with whatever store clerk of guard would let him shoplift or deal drugs at the mall, but finding a partner for thrill murder would be a rare occurrence.

Getting help to get rid of a body after a murder would be easier since the second party knows that what's done is done and nothing will bring the murdered back to life. It's only a question of if the guilty would go to prison or worse, and if that person is a family member or friend, it has been a well discussed problem with people arguing both sides such as in the Unibomber case. There was even a Seinfeld episode where Cramer would turn Jerry in while George was such a "good" friend (ps when one puts words in quotes, it often means a questionable use of the word) that George would help Jerry get rid of the body.

Maybe Lloyd has his act together today, but at the time, he sounds like someone who would say anything, and the anything would depend more on who he was talking to more than the actual facts. IMHO he would tell his girlfriend and stepmother one thing, while he would tell his juvenile delinquent friends another thing (brag that he knows kidnappers) and the police a third thing (he saw next to nothing), while throwing in a tibit of truth, he was at the mall that day in each story.

 

[steveP120]

I believe I saw it stated in news media that since RAW, Sr. was named a POI, that about 6 reports came in
from women claiming that they had been stopped by a security guard who accused them of stealing something.

.

This or the TV version of this news article may have been what you saw:
http://www.csnwashington.com/article/unsettling-interaction-mall-after-girls-vanished-1975

which describes more sinister behavior than a security guard stopping suspected shoplifters:

"Half a dozen people have come forward and talked to police since Lloyd Welch was named, News4 learned. Each told similar stories of being approached at the Wheaton Plaza shopping center by a man with a badge accusing them of stealing something and attempting to grab them and lead them to a parking area.

Investigators believe all of those who came forward were teenagers when they were approached, and at least one of the reports happened two years after the Lyon sisters disappeared, said sources close to the investigation. Investigators are looking at that pattern of behavior."

which is from Oct 3, and I am not familiar with the original source of the news and no author is listed, just a news feed.

A real security guard would have called other guards and police if a shoplifter resisted. If it was just a suspicion and no actual shoplifting was observed, I guess a security guard might not have pressed the issue and let the women go. I don't know if they had undercover security guards in the 70s, but they do today; I sometimes see the same security officers working "undercover" in non-uniforms one day and in uniform the next day. I don't know where the mall/plaza security office was in the 70's but today, just by chance today it's right next to the parking lot (one of the least valuable spots to rent) so it could be a real security guard trying to walk a suspected shoplifter to the security office near a parking lot?? Where the plaza security office was in the 70s sounds like a job for Richard.

I have no first-hand experience, but I thought the corrupt police office or security guard routine usually was to find someone actually guilty of the crime, such as prostitution (not likely at the mall) or shoplifting (very likely at the mall) and offer to let the guilty off in return for sex.

 

[AAWJ]

I been wondering why LLW would kill the Lyon sisters but not his other victims. I think i read he has more then two victims and i think there are live. I am trying to understand that. Only reason because most killer move from hurting to killing. You never read it from a killer stop killing. but i could be wrong. Just something that bothered me. Plus LLW wrote a letter to the Washington Post in February denied he had any involvement. but he could be lying. Also when they release POI RAW Sr they said He may have worked in the Wheaton. There are not even 100% sure he worked in Wheaton.

 

[Richard]

Wheaton Plaza Security Guards...


I do not have specific information regarding the Security Force at Wheaton Plaza in 1975. Nor, aparently, does MCP. Back then, Wheaton Plaza was an Open Air type mall with each store being attatched to others, but each accessable only through an outside door facing the plaza walkway.

Photos from the 1970's which show security guards do exist and they show guards in police type dark blue uniforms.

A similar shopping center, Iverson Mall, in Prince Georges County, MD in 1975, had a regular guard force of a Captain and 16 security guards, responsible for 3 different work/patrol shifts. Probably several working the morning shift, several the afternoon shift and then a night watchman or two. I suspect that Wheaton Plaza had a similar guard force.

Security guards were not allowed to legally arrest or detain anyone (including shoplifters) back in the 1970's unless they had been deputized by police. They could take statements from witnesses, but were not to attempt to get a "confession" from anyone. The standard procedure was to call police.

Security guards were intended to provide a visual presence and were trained to react to various situations such as providing first aid, calming unruly kids, watching for safety hazards, knowing where fire extinguishers were, reporting various safety and security issues, etc, etc.

A uniformed Security Guard trying to pull off an abduction of children or anything of that nature would be seen almost immediately because of the conspicuous nature of his uniform and position.

A person "showing a badge", however, is another thing alltogether. You do not need to be a security guard to obtain a badge of some sort. In fact, an off duty security officer intent on abducting someone, probably would NOT show his official badge in such a manner because they were individually numbered and had the security firm's name on them. It would lead very quickly to his arrest if a potential victim saw the badge and got away.

It has been suggested on several occasions the possibility that someone could have shown the Lyon Sisters a badge as a ruse to get them to enter a vehicle. It certainly is a possiblity, but there are also a number of other equally possible ruses which could have been used.

 

[Richard]

...
... Maybe Lloyd has his act together today, but at the time, he sounds like someone who would say anything, and the anything would depend more on who he was talking to more than the actual facts. IMHO he would tell his girlfriend and stepmother one thing, while he would tell his juvenile delinquent friends another thing (brag that he knows kidnappers) and the police a third thing (he saw next to nothing), while throwing in a tibit of truth, he was at the mall that day in each story.

If you asked Lloyd Welch what time it was and he told you, you would want to look at your watch just to be sure. He probably couldn't tell the truth if he stepped in it. As his stepmother has indicated, he lies about everything.

That is part of his personality and his way. But even liars, social deviates, and outright criminals do things for some reason - with some logic, however twisted it might seem to others.

What he said to police on 1 April 1975 (if anything) would certainly have to be verified, but the fact that he SAID that he was going to call in a tip and try to claim a reward CAN be verified:

- His stepmother clearly recalled that Lloyd made such a statement in her presense at her Hyattsville home after hearing about a reward.
- Police have verified that they received Lloyd's name and Hyattsville address FROM HIM on 1 April 1975.
- On 1 April 1975, the Washington Post reported for the first time that a reward of $7,000 was being offered for information leading to the recovery of the Lyon Sisters. The article states that MCP had requested that no reward be offered previous to that 1 April date.

I do not know what was in Lloyd's head at the time or what he actually said to the police, but it is clear that he was claiming to know something about the case on that day. The big questions are "What information did he give?" and "What did MCP do in response?"

 

[steveP120]

What he said to police on 1 April 1975 (if anything) would certainly have to be verified, but the fact that he SAID that he was going to call in a tip and try to claim a reward CAN be verified:

- His stepmother clearly recalled that Lloyd made such a statement in her presense at her Hyattsville home after hearing about a reward.
- Police have verified that they received Lloyd's name and Hyattsville address FROM HIM on 1 April 1975.
- On 1 April 1975, the Washington Post reported for the first time that a reward of $7,000 was being offered for information leading to the recovery of the Lyon Sisters. The article states that MCP had requested that no reward be offered previous to that 1 April date.

QUOTE]

I would agree that since on the same day the police obtained Lloyd Welch's address from Lloyd was the same day he said he would call the tip line, odds are close to 100% that Lloyd called phoned in a tip. But there is a slight chance Lloyd was stopped by police for some unrelated offence such as loitering on the same day. There is also a slight chance on the same day, he was tracked down as a possible long-hair-man in the sketch.

I would GUESS that Welch told the police nothing important since the police did not follow up with an in-person interview as far as we know. I would hope that if anyone actually reported seeing anyone talking to the girls, even if it sounded like a repeat of information in the news, that the police would conduct an in-person interview.

It's anyone's guess what was in Welch's head if he called the tip line. Lloyd could be totally innocent, only checked out the hot-to-him girls, and told the police where and when he saw the girls. Lloyd, like most people at the plaza on most days could have seen a few badly dressed, odd characters.

Or Lloyd could be totally guilty but felt cornered into calling the police by his bragging; Lloyd might have thought he should act like an innocent person and report to the police that he saw the girls, but of course omit any crime he later committed.

 

[steveP120]

I been wondering why LLW would kill the Lyon sisters but not his other victims. I think i read he has more then two victims and i think there are live. I am trying to understand that. Only reason because most killer move from hurting to killing. You never read it from a killer stop killing. but i could be wrong. Just something that bothered me. Plus LLW wrote a letter to the Washington Post in February denied he had any involvement. but he could be lying. Also when they release POI RAW Sr they said He may have worked in the Wheaton. There are not even 100% sure he worked in Wheaton.

One theory is that Lloyd Welch did not set out that day or any other day to kill anyone, but he either lost it or decided to murder after a rebuffed advance or a threat to go to the police. This would be more like a robbery gone wrong, than a planned murder.

One way police catch robbery-gone-wrong murders is not to look for murderers, but look for robberies in the past fitting the MO. In the Washington, DC area, on occasion, I see these robbery-gone-wrong murders solved when police take the trouble to solve pervious robberies, which don't seem that hard to solve, since the perps often use the "successful" nonlethal victims' credit cards or bank cards where they are caught on tape. This brings up the obvious question of why the DC police don't have the time or resources to solve robberies, which would have saved the next victims life - and even the perps would rather be doing 5 to 10 for armed robbery than life for murder.

If the reports of someone flashing a badge and trying to walk six teenagers to the parking lot are failed attempts of a sexual predator (and not a real security guard asking what's in your bag), this would seem likely to lead to rape and maybe even murder. As bad as child predators are, a fatal outcome is unusual, as noted by Lloyd Welch's known victims.

 

[steveP120]

http://www.wset.com/story/26797749/where-are-the-lyon-sisters-retracing-their-steps


"Hamill (of Montgomery County police) showed us one shortcut from the mall to the neighborhood where the Lyon family lives, about a half-mile away. Police believe the girls took a path from the neighborhood, but never made it back to the path.

"It's a winding path, goes through the woods. It would have been a normal way for kids to travel to come here,” said Hamill. “We don't believe they ever made it from the mall. We believe the actions occurred here in the area of the mall."

In February, investigators identified Lloyd Welch, Jr. as a person of interest in the case. They say he was not only at Wheaton Plaza the day the sisters disappeared, but that he was seen paying particular attention to the young blonde girls.

One witness paid such close attention to Welch, police were able to develop a sketch. The sketch matches Welch's mugshot from a burglary arrest in the same area two years later, right down to his acne scars."

.........

"The Giant Food store has been relocated to a different are on the mall property. Investigators believe Richard “Dick” Welch, Lloyd Welch's uncle and a second person of interest, worked at the original grocery store. They also believe he was a security guard in Wheaton in the 1970s."

--------------------------------
If the girls never made it from the mall to Drumm Ave. that would mean three mistaken sightings, one of the sightings by two people in car? One of the three sightings was inconsistent with the time of the other two sightings and already assumed to be mistaken either by wrong date or wrong two girls, of which there were plenty of in the 70s.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I've always had a feeling that they were taken in the parking lot.
I wonder how long before the Grand Jury Investigation is over?

 

[thebigcookie]

I'm confused here now. I had always thought those sightings along Drumm were credible. I have a hard time understanding where these people get the idea that the girls never made it from the mall. The sightings in the afternoon made more sense to me. I assumed that someone abducted them on their way home. The only sighting that didn't make sense is someone that said they saw them at 7:30 PM. That must have been a mistake but I thought they were seen walking down Drumm at 3:30. Where do they now get the idea that they never made it from the mall?

 

[steveP120]

I'm confused here now. I had always thought those sightings along Drumm were credible. I have a hard time understanding where these people get the idea that the girls never made it from the mall. The sightings in the afternoon made more sense to me. I assumed that someone abducted them on their way home. The only sighting that didn't make sense is someone that said they saw them at 7:30 PM. That must have been a mistake but I thought they were seen walking down Drumm at 3:30. Where do they now get the idea that they never made it from the mall?

I am sure that the people in all three (or four if counting two boys in one car as two) sightings thought they saw the girls, but eyewitness testimony is unreliable and subject to suggestion by the news reports. It's generally accepted that the one evening sighting was off by a day or saw the wrong girls, like it's accepted by the police that the VA sighting was two similar-looking sister. Still having three of three or four of four sightings near Drumm being wrong would unusual.

Everyone living between Wheaton and Kensington would know Drumm Ave is the fastest way to walk. It still is and is my jogging/walking route, although the shortcut is long gone. A vague memory of seeing two girls that day, two girls of a hundred or so kids seen in the 70s, might have been reinforced by the news and knowledge of the usual route followed.

My GUESS would be that the police are now following the "Unsettling interaction" of a man flashing a badge at mall and trying to walk teenagers to parking lot described in:
http://www.csnwashington.com/article/unsettling-interaction-mall-after-girls-vanished-1975

If the police got good photo-line up identification of the person (prior to his photo being all over the news as a person of interest) and he was not a real undercover security guard, the police might have something. Of course since kids hang out at malls, people who like kids also do, and there might be several at the mall.

 

[steveP120]

It was reported in one newspaper article that tracking dogs tracked the sisters and lost the scent in a creek bed along Drumm Ave but

1) I don't think dogs can tell the difference between a scent walking to or from the same path
2) the dogs were brought in days if not a week later
3) the report of the dogs losing track in creek-bed was first reported in a newspaper article of the cold case years later
4) the high-profile, publicity-seeking, tracking dog expert did run into credibility problems a few years later and obviously
5) dog's can't talk so we are not sure of how sure the dogs were that the trail ended in some creek-bed.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

If the girls never made it from the mall to Drumm Ave. that would mean three mistaken sightings, one of the sightings by two people in car? One of the three sightings was inconsistent with the time of the other two sightings and already assumed to be mistaken either by wrong date or wrong two girls, of which there were plenty of in the 70s.

If the sightings by two people in car are referring to the station wagon sightings in Manassas, this theory doesn't rule those sightings out at all, IMO. "Didn't make it to Drumm Ave" doesn't mean didn't make it alive, in my interpretation, it means didn't make it before being abducted. If by "sightings by two people in car" you mean something else local that I'm not aware of, I take it back, and please clarify further.

My theory: Abducted, kept until the heat got too hot, then taken to Bedford Co.

Like every other case I'm following here, I can't WAIT to see the evidence they'll be presenting.

 

[steveP120]

If by "sightings by two people in car" you mean something else local that I'm not aware of, I take it back, and please clarify further.

My theory: Abducted, kept until the heat got too hot, then taken to Bedford Co.

There was a sighting by two teenage boys on Drumm Ave, at 2:30, give or take a half hour which used to be, before yesterday, the last sighting the police thought was not a case of mistaken identity. It was never clear if the driver of the car got a good look at the girls or if the identification as the Lyon sisters was only by the passenger. Apparently the police now think this is a case of mistaken identity or the sisters walked back to the mall.

 

[Richard]

Lots of speculation lately. To clarify a few things---

The eyewitness sightings of the girls between their home and Wheaton Plaza shopping center consist of the following three (reported) incidents:

- the first report was from a 12 year old boy named David who said that he saw the sisters (whom he knew from previous association) walking TOWARD the mall near the intersection of Drumm and Faulkner. He was quoted by police and newspapers as saying that this was "about 7:30". This came out in the news within a day or two of the girls being reported missing. By 27 or 28 March 1975, police were publicly stating that they doubted the sighting because the time would have been too late and did not fit in with other things they thought they knew. Although disregarded by police, David maintained many years later that he remembered his sighting clearly. He did not, however, say anything about the time discrepancy. It is possible that he saw the girls on their way TO the mall around 11:30. Had he seen them at 7:30 it would have been dark for over an hour.

- AFTER Police publicly stated their doubt about David's story, on or about 28 March 1975, another boy who was not named but whom police stated was "Over Fifteen" came forward to state that he was riding in a car with another minor boy (between 16 and 18 probably) who was driving. They were headed west on Drumm Ave and said they saw the girls, also heading west (away from the mall) near the intersection of Drumm and Devin at between 2:30 and 3:00 PM. "Over Fifteen" stated that he knew Sheila from having seen her at school. The other boy supported the story but said that he did not know the girls. Police with held this information from the public for about two weeks before releasing it in a press conference. Police seemed to accept it as an accurate sighting at the time, but later case officers expressed their doubts about it.

- In 2005, a Mr. Mann, age 80 (since deceased), who lived on the corner of Drumm and Devin was interviewed by a reporter for a local paper, doing a 30 year anniversary article. He stated that he remembered seeing the girls and waving to them. Whether or not Mr. Mann made any statements regarding this sighting to police at the time is not known. No accounts appeared of it until 2005.


The reported Manassas sightings of a tan Ford Station Wagon possibly containing the girls took place on 7 April 1975, and is separate from the Drumm Ave reported sightings.

Concerning the Dog search:

Two trained and certified German Shepherd Dogs were brought into the search one week after the girls went missing. Their handler had participated in a number of high profile searches in the past. He later came into some disrepute for alleged fraudulent dog sales.

I cannot speak as to the specifics of the search other than what was reported in the paper, but I can say from personal experience that Tracking Dogs DO KNOW the direction that a scent goes even days after it was left. That said, I do not know whether or not the dogs were actually following a track. It was only stated in the papers that they were taken down the route that the girls were thought to have traveled and that at one point seemed to be picking up their scent near a culvert or ditch.

This is quite possible. The dogs would have been given the scent initially when starting out (from some object or piece of clothing belonging to the girls) and they may have indicated in some way (each dog indicates in a different manner) to the handler that they detected the target scent. After a week of time, wind, rain, changing temperatures, etc, scent disapates but it CAN linger in certain places. This is what the dogs might have alerted on. And if there was only an isolated residual scent, there might not have been a "direction of travel" apparent to the dogs.

There is no indication that any dogs owned by MCP were used . The MCP chief investigator stated that he had wanted the two German Shepherds earlier, but that they were out of the state on another job and not available.

 

[steveP120]

I've always had a feeling that they were taken in the parking lot.
I wonder how long before the Grand Jury Investigation is over?

I never did, and still don't like the abduction in the parking lot of the mall because there is maybe only 100 feet of parking lot of the old back entrance to Wards (now Target) to the circular road around the mall, which today has a car on it 90% of the time - cars which I have to avoid almost every time I go to the mall (of course traffic could have been less in the 70s). The circular road around the mall is only about 100 feet wide at most including some grass on the side then it's off the mall property to the swimming pool and house on Faulkner Drive on the Way to Drumm Ave.

It's such a small parking lot on the girl's walk home that in old photos of the plaza, from the main walkway, one can see the tall trees on Faulkner Drive above Montgomery Wards.

Of course criminals often do stupid things, or it might not be forced abduction but a con, such as I am a policeman come with me, but even this has a chance of being noticed in the malls parking lot, maybe less of a chance than physically grabbing girls, but a chance.

It's NOT like the girl's path home took them to the back of 50 yard parking lot that was not well traveled.

Instead of walking through Wards, the girls (and I today, well I have to today since there is no back entrance) could walk on the sidewalk around Wards, but this is also well traveled.

Either someone stepping out of Wards, someone walking up Faulkner, someone driving the ring road or someone stepping around the corner could have stumbled on a forced abduction in the act.

Frankly, I think letting the shoplifter off for sex scam would only work if the victims were actually shoplifting, as it failed with half-a-dozen teenagers at the mall. It's only wild speculation on my part, but maybe Lloyd Welch was looking for cute, teenage shoplifters who a "security guard" could run the let-you-off-for-shoplifting sex scam on. Lloyd Welch was too young and too hippy-looking to look like a security guard or cop.