Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

[Richard]

I never did, and still don't like the abduction in the parking lot of the mall because there is maybe only 100 feet of parking lot of the old back entrance to Wards (now Target) to the circular road around the mall, which today has a car on it 90% of the time - cars which I have to avoid almost every time I go to the mall (of course traffic could have been less in the 70s). The circular road around the mall is only about 100 feet wide at most including some grass on the side then it's off the mall property to the swimming pool and house on Faulkner Drive on the Way to Drumm Ave.

It's such a small parking lot on the girl's walk home that in old photos of the plaza, from the main walkway, one can see the tall trees on Faulkner Drive above Montgomery Wards.

Of course criminals often do stupid things, or it might not be forced abduction but a con, such as I am a policeman come with me, but even this has a chance of being noticed in the malls parking lot, maybe less of a chance than physically grabbing girls, but a chance. It's NOT like the girl's path home took them to the back of 50 yard parking lot that was not well traveled.

Instead of walking through Wards, the girls (and I today, well I have to today since there is no back entrance) could walk on the sidewalk around Wards, but this is also well traveled.

Either someone stepping out of Wards, someone walking up Faulkner, someone driving the ring road or someone stepping around the corner could have stumbled on a forced abduction in the act. .........

All excellent descriptions and observations. I have also seen this parking lot on a number of occasions.

While it is true that there are many possible opportunities for a potential abduction to be witnessed, consider that fact that so many abductions have occurred in this very manner in many other cases.

As a choke point for observation or abduction the Wards back parking lot would have been excellent:

- It is a perfect place for a perp to watch for potential victims going into the mall. He could see who is alone or without parents, and the direction they came from.

- While there were two very close possible routes of travel for somone crossing the perimeter road from Faulkner - that is through Wards back entrance, or around the side -, it is most likely that whatever way they went on the way in would likely be the same way they would exit.

- Observing usual traffic patterns at different times of day would give the perp an idea of when there would be the least amount of traffic in the area, and how often police patrolled the area.

- The back parking lot provides a very quick exit from the Mall, of only a few hundred feet to University Blvd, a major road out of the area.

- Some scouting of Kensington residential roads would also allow a perpetrator to have a secondary abduction site chosen and a timing as to when to leave the parking lot in order to control the time of arrival.

- The good view of the perimeter road, the pedestrian approach from Faulkner, and the remoteness of the parking lot (compared to other closer parking spaces in the larger lots) give the perpetrator the option of aborting the mission right up to the point of getting his victims into his vehicle. He could simply try again another day, or could reposition further down the road in Kensington. Leaving by the perimiter road and making a quick left and then another left would put the abductor at the corner of Drumm and McComas in about one minute, whereas it takes someone walking about 8 minutes to make that trip.

Note that all of the above observations would work for ANY potential abductor, regardless of who he or she was. Moving to a position inside the mall might provide the abductor with more information on persons he had previously observed. Seeing them leaving, or having an accomplice follow them and signal him in some way would allow the abduction to occur more smoothly with less chance of detection.

 

[steveP120]

Assuming search dogs are half as good as Richard says they are in suburban environments, it almost sounds negligent not to use them sooner. Well I would give the police a day or two to figure out that it's not a runaway or divorced parent taking the kids. If the girls walked or were walked to a nearby house, search dogs could have found them. Montgomery County was and is one of the richest counties in the country, right next to Washington D.C. and they should have been able to afford a search dog.

Likewise it sounds almost negligent of the cops not to ask anyone who saw the sisters that day to come forward, leaving it up to the two teenage boys and the parents to decide to come forward. If the police were able to identify the last know spot the girls were seen, such as the back-parking lot or Drumm Ave with a day or two, the police could have requested anyone who saw any person, 99% who would be innocent at that spot, to come forward. Likewise, who knows if the old man ever told the police he saw the girls or was even asked to tell the police.

I few years later, I was studying business law from an adjunct professor, whose main, day job was being a lawyer with a specialty suing the Montgomery County Police at the University of MD, College Park. Needless to say, our business law, such as what you need for a contract, was told between some stories about MC police incompetence. I also remember the course as being at 8:00, so it would not interfere with his real job.

This year, after Lloyd Welch was named a person of interest, according to one news report, half a dozen women (teenagers in 70s) came forward and described a badge-showing-grabbing man trying to walk them to a parking lot. I don't remember seeing in any of the news articles from the 70s that the police asked any women, teenager who was approached or asked to get in a car, possible prior failed attempts, to come forward at the time. Although, I would have hoped at a minimum the police checked prior reports.

 

[steveP120]

She apparently did two news stories, the one yesterday where she talked to police and one today where she talked to a friend of the Lyon sisters. Good background on the neighborhood and a personal-interest story, but no new information on crime today.

http://www.wset.com/story/26805819/...ood-friend-remembers-how-neighborhood-changed

 

[steveP120]

There is just not much distance from end of mall to Faulkner Place.
A 25 yard pool, the small pool, is shown for comparison.
A forced abduction along either of the walking possibilities, marked in blue would be risky IMHO because of traffic and lines of sight.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

It seems that on that Tuesday that people described the mall being VERY BUSY, in which I imagine the parking lot too would be crowded with parents bringing their kids to see the Easter Bunny and Easter shopping.

Would that cause it to be less noticeable if most of the people were inside the area where the Easter Bunny was and people may have been buzzing in and out of the parking lot, not paying attention to every detail?

However, had it been a day where the parking lot was very empty, IMO that would have made the abductor(s) stick out like a sore thumb.

So, could they have blended in with the crowds?

 

[steveP120]

It seems that on that Tuesday that people described the mall being VERY BUSY, in which I imagine the parking lot too would be crowded with parents bringing their kids to see the Easter Bunny and Easter shopping.

Would that cause it to be less noticeable if most of the people were inside the area where the Easter Bunny was and people may have been buzzing in and out of the parking lot, not paying attention to every detail?

However, had it been a day where the parking lot was very empty, IMO that would have made the abductor(s) stick out like a sore thumb.

So, could they have blended in with the crowds?

To me, an empty, parked car gets no attention from me, unless there is something unusual about the car.
If someone is sitting in a parked car, I assume he or she is waiting for someone, note that the car is occupied, and make sure it's not going to pull out in front of me. Just the fact that the car is occupied makes me look for a second, just a second.
So it's likely that anyone planning an abduction could and would have got out of the car to blend into the crowd IMHO.

Of course the girls could have been talked into walking to a different parking lot or different part of the mall that was not that crowded.

It also strikes me that a two-door Pinto wagon/hatchback is not the best car for either a forced abduction or to impersonate a police officer or security guard.

 

[cgoodwin22]

more photos of Richard Welch:

 

[AAWJ]

more photos of Richard Welch:View attachment 61470

This is NOT a picture of Richard Allen Welch Sr.
This is a picture of James Andrew Johns his G/f at the time and their daughther.

 

[steveP120]

If the second person of interest, the uncle, Richard Welch, worked at the original Giant store, literally attached to the Wards (now Target) grocery store customers, from kids to parents, would have been able to identify him, likely not by name, but as a grocery store worker.

From: http://www.wset.com/story/26797749/where-are-the-lyon-sisters-retracing-their-steps
"The Giant Food store has been relocated to a different are on the mall property. Investigators believe Richard “Dick” Welch, Lloyd Welch's uncle and a second person of interest, worked at the original grocery store. They also believe he was a security guard in Wheaton in the 1970s."

If it was an abduction on the girls' normal walking route, it would have been an abduction within 50 yards of the old Giant, where Richard Welch worked and would have been known to most customers. You would have to have balls or stupidity to abduct someone within 50 yards of where you worked - the side parking lot of where you worked. Even roaming the mall on breaks, Giant employees must have/and do today, realize that they see and are seen by many of their customers.

It's also possible that both of the Welches knew the girls slightly, Richard from working at Giant and Lloyd from hanging out, and one or both of them were able to talk the girls into going somewhere and something went wrong either by accident or by design.

Jogging part of the same route today, I could not help but think that only a person with no knowledge of the local roads, no knowledge of walking routes to the mall would stage an abduction in broad daylight on mall property - near suicide in my opinion - when better, still risky but better, places for abduction were 25 yards away.

 

[cgoodwin22]

This is NOT a picture of Richard Allen Welch Sr.
This is a picture of James Andrew Johns his G/f at the time and their daughther.

Oops...sorry. I saw this photo on what i thought was Richard Allen Welch' daughters FB page. It had a caption of My Dad, mom & me.

 

[AAWJ]

Oops...sorry. I saw this photo on what i thought was Richard Allen Welch' daughters FB page. It had a caption of My Dad, mom & me.

Its okay. Just the Welch family have enough problems without addding more.

 

[steveP120]

Looks like she was doing one story a day for the last three days.
The first was an interview with a Montgomery County cop at the mall. The second was an interview with some childhood girlfriend of the sisters. And today's is an interview with an FBI agent:

http://www.wset.com/story/26817116/where-are-the-lyon-sisters-a-closer-look-at-lloyd-welch-jr

The video with parts of the actual interview is better than the text, but no case-breaking-news. There is some background on the investigation.

Just some good leads and Lloyd Welch had "run-ins" (whatever that means) with the law almost if not everywhere.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Thank you for posting that last news report.

That is what is needed again, is INTENSE NEWS COVERAGE not only in Bedford County, Virginia--which I'm SO GLAD to see they are doing on WSET, but also, IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND as well--the county from WHERE THEY LIVED AND BECAME MISSING, at Wheaton Plaza!!

Even one person who posted a comment on one of the WSET news stories said he/she doesn't forget a face and recognized seeing LLW at Wheaton Plaza. That is just ONE PERSON!!

Now that almost 40 YEARS HAS GONE BY,
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE
may REMEMBER HIM??!!

And NOW WE HAVE HIS UNCLE, RICHARD ALLEN WELCH, Sr.
to ADD TO THAT LIST??!!

There is SO much attention in the news right now about Ebola and other
missing person's cases, WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE to GET
THIS PARTICULAR CASE to the forefront, to FINALIZE as MANY WITNESSES
and EVIDENCE AS POSSIBLE??!!!

I am THRILLED that Angela Hatcher interviewed the FBI officer!!
The FBI looks at what stands out--carnival worker traveling throughout the country, operating rides, where he would have contact with young girls.

Add this that an uncle who JUST HAPPENED to perhaps work at the Giant near Wheaton Plaza, in addition to being a security guard in the Wheaton area and PERHAPS having ACCESS TO USING that UNIFORM,
AT ANY TIME HE CHOSE!!

<modsnip>

IMO, it WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME IF, <modsnip> who may have been involved,
could be the 3rd abductor, who perhaps was the TRM, or aided in the abduction in the vehicle.
It would seem logical that at least 2 would be needed to handle a double abduction in the car, if not 3!!
Obviously one abductor was the driver and had to focus on driving.
And I can't imagine, that AFTER Sheila and Katherine REALIZED THAT SOMETHING WAS DANGEROUSLY
WRONG, they they would NOT PUT UP A HARD FIGHT FOR THEIR LIVES!!

I would imagine maybe Katherine would have been MORE AGGRESSIVE,
perhaps biting and kicking the most and Sheila, more quiet and calculating the plan to escape or call for help, as possibly that COULD have been her that sent a note in a bottle.

The Dots Can and WILL BE CONNECTED!!!

 

[steveP120]

And NOW WE HAVE HIS UNCLE, RICHARD ALLEN WELCH, Sr.
to ADD TO THAT LIST??!!

I want to know WHO is the OTHER SECOND Uncle that Dollie Estep, (who said she is a cousin of LLW)
said that LLW has ALSO PLACED HIM AT THE SCENE, along with the the first Uncle, which, as we know now, appears to be Richard Allen Welch, Sr.???

IMO, it WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME IF, that SECOND uncle who may have been involved,
could be the 3rd abductor, who perhaps was the TRM, or aided in the abduction in the vehicle.

I might be reading it the wrong way, but I always read "Lloyd Welch placed two of his uncles at the scene" as "Lloyd Welch said everyone including his uncle (who worked at the mall), his father and even his mother visited the mall/plaza." Even I was at the mall today in 2014 "at the scene" if it was the scene of the crime.

Of course it's possible the Lloyd Welch either confessed to the crime, placing most of the blame on his uncle and dead father (who killed his mother in a drunk-driving accident). It's also possible Lloyd Welch was not involved in the crime, but knew or overheard something about the crime commuted by relatives. It's also possible the third or fourth of fifth-hand statement of what Lloyd Welch said, but the time it got to the current detectives, Estep and the reporter, was not the original statement. It's also possible that the police are bluffing, "We know what happened so there is no point in you not telling us."

If two "uncles" (one Lloyd's father?) were involved in the crime, their involvement could vary from helping LLoyd cover up his crime or being in on the crime from the beginning.

 

[steveP120]

IMO, it WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME IF, that SECOND uncle who may have been involved,
could be the 3rd abductor, who perhaps was the TRM, or aided in the abduction in the vehicle.
It would seem logical that at least 2 would be needed to handle a double abduction in the car, if not 3!!
Obviously one abductor was the driver and had to focus on driving.

The grab-and-run theory has not be my favorite theory. I am leaning to some sort of con (I am a cop come with us) or seduction by Lloyd (let's drink some beer), but walking to the mall today (then plaza), it did look to me like two or three men could pull it off with a CARGO VAN, to block the view of anyone in the parking lot, assuming the side of Wards was windowless as it (Target) is today. The only risk would be someone walking around either corner. It would take two more lookouts to make sure nobody was walking around either of the two corners.

 

[j123]

Because of the fact that this case has gone unsolved for so long while many others haven't, it's probably fair to factor dumb luck on the part of the culprit(s) into theories. At this point, there was probably some involved, because I certainly don't believe this was the work of a genius. If the security guard accusing women of theft ploy turns out to have been related, then the kidnappers were not relying on meticulous, fool-proof planning. They were repeating a very flawed scheme until it just happened to work. Who knows not only how many women and girls independently got themselves out of the situation, but how many times they might have tried it and then called it off because of witnesses.

 

[steveP120]

Because of the fact that this case has gone unsolved for so long while many others haven't, it's probably fair to factor dumb luck on the part of the culprit(s) into theories. At this point, there was probably some involved, because I certainly don't believe this was the work of a genius. If the security guard accusing women of theft ploy turns out to have been related, then the kidnappers were not relying on meticulous, fool-proof planning. They were repeating a very flawed scheme until it just happened to work.

I agree. Even more than the security guard accusing women of theft ploy works on dumb luck, it was also dumb luck that the Montgomery County Police did not ask these women, any woman who was even looked at wrongly, to come forward when the Lyon sisters disappeared.

Of course the security guard ploy could be unrelated or a security guard exceeding his authority going undercover and grabbing/detaining suspected shoplifters.

One would have to be an idiot today to try the corrupt cop/security guard routine because of DNA, but in the past if done with a guilty shoplifter (or other crime) the victim is unlikely to report it because of her/his criminal behavior and it would be his word against her word and the victim if given a "choice" is choosing sex over jail. But Lloyd is such an idiot, he might have tried it with a 10 year old girl.

 

[WaynezWorld]

I just heard on the radio about the discovery of remains in Albemarle Co., VA and thought of this case again. I am catching up on the reading.


I did not catch any mention of a "second uncle" being placed at the scene. If a reference from where that was said could be posted, I would appreciate it.

There was a quote that police were "turning family members against each other" (or something to that effect.) My personal suspicion is that LLW has turned on his uncle and that is the reason the Bedford property was searched. I cannot fathom any other reason police would be down there but for a very credible statement from someone, possibly Welch himself or an inmate LLW confided in.

To be Devils Advocate, it is strange to think LLW was a child abductor/killer who "mellowed" into a simple child molester of family members as he aged. I would think it more likely that LLW would leave the family alone and attack strangers in the many locations he has lived. I hpe it's not true, but it could be possible LLW is playing the Henry Lee Lucas game for some preferential treatment and to spite his uncle for who knows what reason. It will be interesting if LLW is brought before the grand jury as a witness.

 

[steveP120]

Where can I find that article with Dollie Estep said that? I would like to read that. Thanks

It was in this report from a Washington, DC TV station, but was tucked in the middle and so vaguely worded that I did not even note it at first.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/0...d-lyon-sisters-disappearance-case-107200.html

The fourth and fifth paragraphs:

"Dollie Estep, a Thaxton resident, said investigators had visited her home months ago and told her two of her uncles had been implicated in the disappearance of two sisters in Maryland in 1975. Katherine Lyon, 10, and Sheila Lyon, 12, were last seen eating pizza at a mall in Wheaton.

In February, Lloyd Welch, a sex offender currently serving time in a Delaware prison, was named a person of interest in the sisters' disappearance by the FBI. Estep said investigators told her Welch, a cousin, placed her two uncles at the scene; one of the uncles owned an acre of land in the area where police have been searching in recent days."
---------------------
My doubt about this is a few posts up.
Also in the video, not the text, they state the Welch was just denied early release and "is not cooperating with investigators" which sort of contradicts him placing his uncles at the scene, unless he placed them at the scene years ago.

 

[WaynezWorld]

I read that as LLW and RAW were the two uncles, thanks for reposting that Steve.

I do not put it past LE to put out false information, ie about LLW "not cooperating". Though it may scare RAW to know he is, LE may be keeping their cards close to their vest.

A 57 year old man serving 12 more years in prison is like someone doing a life sentence. LLW does not look healthy and I imagine his future is pretty grim. I hope investigators can play to his emotions to get the truth. In his pathetic state of captivity, he may be willing to talk if allowed to serve his sentence in his current prison.