GUILTY MA - Conrad Roy, 18, urged by friend, commits suicide, Fairhaven, 13 July 2014 #2 *guilty*

[Sandy.kay]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I haven't seen much discussion on WHY MC did it? I've only been able to find the complete texts from the actual day of, not before, but she is just SO insistent. She's just dying for him to die. Does anyone have any thoughts on why?

I feel a connection to this case because I had a lot of depression issues in my teenage years, and probably because of that, also had a fair amount of friends and boyfriends that also had similar issues. Oh- and not to go off on a tangent, but I was prescribed Celexa for a number of years, as well as a myriad of other SSRIs at different points, and I can't imagine an SSRI, especially Celexa having much of anything to do with her sociopathic behavior. Even if you don't react well to an SSRI it doesn't make you crazy in that way.

Anyway, I can't stop wondering why MC did this. I think everyone agrees CR would probably still be alive if not for her, and he definitely wouldn't have died that day if not for her. No one seems to give a good explanation for MC wanting CR to commit suicide so badly. Any ideas?


I'm brand new to websleuths so please let me know if I stray from usual protocol, or the code that many communities have on what is expected. I'm very excited to join, but I feel sure I'm going to come off as a real idiot a few times before I understand the culture haha.

 

[KaaBoom]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I haven't seen much discussion on WHY MC did it? I've only been able to find the complete texts from the actual day of, not before, but she is just SO insistent. She's just dying for him to die. Does anyone have any thoughts on why?

Personally I think she is a psychopath. That's the only reason I can think of for her doing it.

The prosecution argued that she wanted the sympathy and attention that came with being the grieving girlfriend.

 

[flourish]

I think she wanted the attention of being a bereaved girlfriend and all the sympathy one in that position gets. I can see her playing it for years..., "Yes well you see in high school i had this boyfriend, and *voice hitches* he uh took his own life, I tried and tried to help him, but" fade into sobs and here comes comfort and attention.

 

[Sandy.kay]

Elaborating on my last post, I wanted to go over a few theories on why MC was so desperate for Conrad to kill himself.

• For CR's own benefit.

I thought this was possible when I briefly read the case summary. When I was a teen, my bf and I were both very depressed, and we promised to tell the other if we decided to kill ourselves, so if one did we would both together. Now in reality, we probably mostly said that so we would have a chance to get the other help if it got that bad, but I think both of us had a bit of suicidal idealization, and a tiny part of us might've considered it. I can kind of see someone being so depressed, and idealizing suicide so much, that they might want that "relief" for someone they loved that was in a lot of pain. It's a stretch- certainly not something I would've ever felt, but I can kind of see someone being that twisted.
But after reading the texts from the day Conrad died, I don't believe MC was trying to help him because she thought it was best for him to kill himself. It seemed clear to me that he wasn't ready to die, and even that he didn't really want to. If he felt that way, why would she think it was in his best interest to die?

• To get more friends.

I've heard this theory floated, that she hoped it would ingratiate or garner sympathy with new friends. Is there anything to back this up? Did she seek a lot of sympathy? I know she even told one friend that she pushed him into- wouldn't that make her friends see her for the piece of &#^$ she was? Was she prone to histrionics and attention seeking? Why not just make up a boyfriend, and then tell people he killed himself? Or she could say he beat her or make up any number of lies to get attention. Does anyone know if she tended to do that too? It just seems there are better and easier ways to get attention and sympathy. Did her friends know him too even?

• She's a sociopath, and enjoyed manipulating him into something so extreme.

I guess this makes more sense than the other theories. But she probably had had mental evaluations if she was on anti-depressants. Didn't anyone notice she had sociopathic tendencies? Even sociopaths don't really just do things without purpose, so it stands to reason she either got enjoyment out of manipulating him, or knowing she caused his death, maybe both. If that's the case, she probably has a history of manipulating and toying with people, and/or a preoccupation with death. Does anyone know about any of that? And why, before, did she so often encourage him not to kill himself? Wouldn't she have gotten the same pleasure before from being partially responsible?

• He did something that made her hate him or want him out of the way.

I haven't heard any reasons that she would feel that way, but maybe something happened we don't know about?

PS- In one of the texts, Conrad says Michelle should make sure she takes her son kayaking. What a strange thing to say.... Is it possible that she was pregnant, or at least told him she was?

 

[Sandy.kay]

Thanks Kaboom and Flourish, I read more looking for that and I can definitely see it now.

Has anyone else read the weed texts? Such a difference in his mood. It kills me he wasn't from somewhere more progressive, maybe he'd still be alive even with that witch. CBD and low dose THC edibles do wonders for my anxiety.

 

[flourish]

Thanks Kaboom and Flourish, I read more looking for that and I can definitely see it now.

Has anyone else read the weed texts? Such a difference in his mood. It kills me he wasn't from somewhere more progressive, maybe he'd still be alive even with that witch. CBD and low dose THC edibles do wonders for my anxiety.

Greetings and Welcome, @Sandy.kay !
I don't recall the weed texts...I'll have to look back.
I hear you on the cannabis...I have severe depression, anxiety, and horrible vestibular issues, which leave me motion sick and dry-heaving at least once a week if not more. Cannabis is the only thing which helps without awful side effects, and I moved from a recreational and medical state to a state still stuck in the "reefer madness" era, and it sucks!!!

I figure, like everything else in the world, it's not one thing only which motivated her, but a combination of factors. I think she was prone to histrionics, was spoiled throughout her life, was never required to take responsibility for herself or her actions, and is an attention-hungry psycho lacking empathy. I think she enjoyed the drama, wanted to be in the role of "bereaved girlfriend," and even if she wasn't *liked* per se, people would know who she was. Even negative attention is attention. I also suspect she likely has some control issues, and I wonder about the personalities of her parents. We know her mom was posting on social media for her at one point, so they clearly don't insist on her taking responsibility or facing her own music, and they certainly haven't been doing her any favors by doing so.

 

[Steleheart]

Michelle Carter wants out

Michelle Carter is demanding her freedom, saying she shouldn’t have been found guilty of egging on her boyfriend to commit suicide because the worst text was “cherry-picked” to doom her, according to new court documents filed yesterday.

 

[zencompass]

Dear Flourish,

When you referred to "reefer madness" in your message, I just had to investigate.

I can honestly say I've never watched a film so intrigued and confused at its methodology at the same time!

It is still true that I always learn something from your posts!

 

[zencompass]

Michelle Carter wants out

Thank you for posting this news article link, Steleheart.

I find it horrible and offensive that Michelle Carter would use the word "doom", applying it to the outcome of her actions.

I can see how the verb "doom" applies to her actions, resulting in the death of Conrad Roy. Can't see how this applies to her situation.

Oxford Dictionary:
VERB

• 1 Condemn to certain death or destruction.
  
  
  1. 1.1 Cause to have an unfortunate and inescapable outcome.

Excerpt from article:

"Michelle Carter is demanding her freedom, saying she shouldn’t have been found guilty of egging on her boyfriend to commit suicide because the worst text was “cherry-picked” to doom her, according to new court documents filed yesterday."

 

[Steleheart]

Thank you for posting this news article link, Steleheart.

I find it horrible and offensive that Michelle Carter would use the word "doom", applying it to the outcome of her actions.

I can see how the verb "doom" applies to her actions, resulting in the death of Conrad Roy. Can't see how this applies to her situation.

Oxford Dictionary:
VERB

• 1 Condemn to certain death or destruction.
  
  1. 1.1 Cause to have an unfortunate and inescapable outcome.

Excerpt from article:

"Michelle Carter is demanding her freedom, saying she shouldn’t have been found guilty of egging on her boyfriend to commit suicide because the worst text was “cherry-picked” to doom her, according to new court documents filed yesterday."

Indeed! The irony is that it was her actions that doomed Conrad. I don't know why it's different than suicide caused by online bullying. Essentially she bullied him into completing the act and yes many young suicide victims already had some emotional issues.
She's a piece of work - she doesn't even get the notion of Justice.

 

[zencompass]

Would Michelle Carter have had a psychiatric evaluation just before or when she was incarcerated?

I can't locate information if she was court-ordered to have a psych evaluation and I wonder whether if this is standard procedure in the jail.

I am thinking this may be part of "rehabilitation" for prisoners during their stay there but I don't know.

 

[Steleheart]

Would Michelle Carter have had a psychiatric evaluation just before or when she was incarcerated?

I can't locate information if she was court-ordered to have a psych evaluation and I wonder whether if this is standard procedure in the jail.

I am thinking this may be part of "rehabilitation" for prisoners during their stay there but I don't know.

She was evaluated by Dr. Peter Breggin who also testified for the defense during the trial. It was bizarre.
I didn't find the earlier articles about the evaluation but these describe his finding somewhat.
Texting suicide trial: Antidepressants were key, doctor says - CNN
Michelle Carter ‘involuntarily intoxicated’ by prescription before friend’s suicide, psychiatrist testifies - The Boston Globe

ETA; she hasn't YET been incarcerated - living like a princess it seems, alive and free.

 

[The Farm]

Thanks for posting this Steleheart and neither her or her family get it.
Her defense will pull out everything and anything and her parents must be in hock up to their eyeballs because of that.
Then again they do feel she did nothing wrong which was said earlier in all this mess.

Welcome Sandy.Kay!

 

[zencompass]

She was evaluated by Dr. Peter Breggin who also testified for the defense during the trial. It was bizarre.
I didn't find the earlier articles about the evaluation but these describe his finding somewhat.
Texting suicide trial: Antidepressants were key, doctor says - CNN
Michelle Carter ‘involuntarily intoxicated’ by prescription before friend’s suicide, psychiatrist testifies - The Boston Globe

ETA; she hasn't YET been incarcerated - living like a princess it seems, alive and free.

Good morning Steleheart,

Bizarre is a good word to describe Dr. Breggin's testimony.

I forgot that Michelle Carter's sentence was postponed until her appeal is heard.

The appeal will be interesting to follow. Just because a dream team has been assembled for the appeal does not guarantee they will win.

I see from the (below) news article :

"Nancy Gertner, a former federal judge and high profile defense lawyer, and Boston lawyer William Fick, who defended convicted Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, have joined Carter’s trial lawyers Joseph Cataldo and Cory Madera to appeal her conviction."


Michelle Carter hires big legal guns in manslaughter appeal to SJC

 

[The Farm]

Good morning Steleheart,

Bizarre is a good word to describe Dr. Breggin's testimony.

I forgot that Michelle Carter's sentence was postponed until her appeal is heard.

The appeal will be interesting to follow. Just because a dream team has been assembled for the appeal does not guarantee they will win.

I see from the (below) news article :

"Nancy Gertner, a former federal judge and high profile defense lawyer, and Boston lawyer William Fick, who defended convicted Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, have joined Carter’s trial lawyers Joseph Cataldo and Cory Madera to appeal her conviction."


Michelle Carter hires big legal guns in manslaughter appeal to SJC

These cases take so long we tend to forget things. Yes she is on a summer vacation until her appeal is heard which is when or do we even know??? She actually might be poolside or beachside in her little bikini today because it is so hot & humid you can not go outside. Or maybe her parents have taken her on another vacation.

And I am wondering if the reason they need the really big guns is:
1. They want the glory of the case.
2. They think they might not have a leg to stand on.

I did not see a date in the above article for when this appeal will come about.

 

[Steleheart]

Good morning Steleheart,

Bizarre is a good word to describe Dr. Breggin's testimony.

I forgot that Michelle Carter's sentence was postponed until her appeal is heard.

The appeal will be interesting to follow. Just because a dream team has been assembled for the appeal does not guarantee they will win.

I see from the (below) news article :

"Nancy Gertner, a former federal judge and high profile defense lawyer, and Boston lawyer William Fick, who defended convicted Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, have joined Carter’s trial lawyers Joseph Cataldo and Cory Madera to appeal her conviction."


Michelle Carter hires big legal guns in manslaughter appeal to SJC

My favorite part was this by Prosecutor Rayburn -

When Rayburn attempted to characterize Carter as someone who feigned concern for people in order to win attention, Breggin interrupted, "You're making her sound manipulative."

"Yes," Rayburn responded.

The response drew laughter from the courtroom.

Michelle Carter Trial: Psychiatrist Dr. Peter Breggin changed his diagnosis of teen who pushed boyfriend to kill himself

 

[zencompass]

Thank you for your post, The Farm.

I could not find a court date for the SJC appeal, either.

While reading about the 66-page filing by Michelle Carter's lawyers, I read how they are "targetting the lack of an assisted suicide law".

Whether or not the average person is for or against an assisted suicide law, I think most of us realize what circumstances this would fall under.

It was never considered for something like this - an urging for a young healthy person to commit suicide!

Nor would it ever cover online bullying which resulted in a person's suicide.

In my opinion, the very notion of applying "assisted suicide" to this case is ludicrous and unconscionable.

Hopefully the unconscionable aspect of that very argument will help to get this appeal thrown out.

I couldn't believe it was in the appeal as an argument.

Michelle Carter wants out

"And, according to the 66-page filing with the SJC, Carter specifically targets the lack of an assisted suicide law in the Bay State."

“Given difficulties with applying the common law of murder and manslaughter to an area as fraught as assisted suicide,” her legal team states, “most states adopted the ‘modern statutory scheme’ that ‘treats assisted suicide as a separate crime, with penalties less onerous that those for murder.’ ”

 

[zencompass]

I just wanted to be clear that I would never initiate nor delve into discussions of how people feel about assisted suicide.

The issue is private, personal and highly sensitive. I understand this completely.

My argument is why her lawyers have brought this issue up as if it applies to what Michelle Carter did.

No suicide-assisted law has passed in Massachusetts . However, for her lawyers to even suggest that the lack of such a law affected Michelle Carter's conviction is absurd (at least to me).

But I will certainly want to hear others' opinions of how you feel about Michelle Carter's lawyers arguing that assisted suicide laws could apply to her actions.



Assisted suicide bill dies in Massachusetts Legislature

"BOSTON — .For at least the fifth consecutive legislative session, bills that would open the door to doctors prescribing lethal doses for terminally ill patients were dropped from consideration by the Public Health Committee."

As public sentiment changes, some Mass. docs say 'no' to assisted suicide

Two sides:

"There are many physicians who are staunchly opposed to the idea of legalizing assisted suicide."
"They maintain it directly contradicts the moral obligation of physicians to care for their patients, and that it makes patients vulnerable to a host of issues that proponents might not anticipate, such as problems getting coverage for treatment if insurance companies believe patients will not survive an illness, or being taken advantage of by family members who stand to gain in the event of the patient's death."


"On the other side of the issue is Rep. Louis Kafka (D-Stoughton) a longtime proponent of legalizing assisted suicide and the sponsor of the House bill."
"I look at it as [an option] for the person who chooses to end their life because of an illness that is terminal, and in their minds could be very painful, and under best circumstances will only allow them six more months," Kafka said in an interview in March.

 

[Steleheart]

I just wanted to be clear that I would never initiate nor delve into discussions of how people feel about assisted suicide.

The issue is private, personal and highly sensitive. I understand this completely.

My argument is why her lawyers have brought this issue up as if it applies to what Michelle Carter did.

No suicide-assisted law has passed in Massachusetts . However, for her lawyers to even suggest that the lack of such a law affected Michelle Carter's conviction is absurd (at least to me).

But I will certainly want to hear others' opinions of how you feel about Michelle Carter's lawyers arguing that assisted suicide laws could apply to her actions.

Assisted suicide bill dies in Massachusetts Legislature

"BOSTON — .For at least the fifth consecutive legislative session, bills that would open the door to doctors prescribing lethal doses for terminally ill patients were dropped from consideration by the Public Health Committee."

As public sentiment changes, some Mass. docs say 'no' to assisted suicide

Two sides:

"There are many physicians who are staunchly opposed to the idea of legalizing assisted suicide."
"They maintain it directly contradicts the moral obligation of physicians to care for their patients, and that it makes patients vulnerable to a host of issues that proponents might not anticipate, such as problems getting coverage for treatment if insurance companies believe patients will not survive an illness, or being taken advantage of by family members who stand to gain in the event of the patient's death."


"On the other side of the issue is Rep. Louis Kafka (D-Stoughton) a longtime proponent of legalizing assisted suicide and the sponsor of the House bill."
"I look at it as [an option] for the person who chooses to end their life because of an illness that is terminal, and in their minds could be very painful, and under best circumstances will only allow them six more months," Kafka said in an interview in March.

They can't have it both ways as reason for appeal. On the one hand they argue that she "wasn't present" at his death and words alone can't cause someone's death. Then they argue that no assisted suicide law exists. So if she wasn't there and wasn't responsible how was she assisting in his suicide?

 

[zencompass]

Brilliant reasoning, Steleheart.