MA - Conrad Roy, 18, urged by friend, commits suicide, Fairhaven, 13 July 2014

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I am all for personal responsibility, but I don't feel like he really wanted to do it either. He tried to have normal convos with this girl, she continuously redirected and pressured him to do this. It's not the other way around as is often seen where a person is asking for aid in committing suicide. She bullied him and manipulated him into believing he should do this when he was so obviously wanting someone to help him.


Agreed. In the same way that a kind word when you are at your bottom can change your outlook and give you hope, so can pressure and influence to "go 'head, do it do it do it" cause you to go from questioning suicide to embracing it.

This girl is not human. She wears the shell. But underneath is void. Cold, cold, cold.
 
Agree. In fact he tried to NOT do it but she had control and he had diminished capacity. She was the controller who victimized him as the abused.
To say he was "alone" is not exactly true, if you understand how young people see and experience the technology of texting. For all intents and purposes she was right next to him instructing him, badgering him, demanding he get back in, etc. All the while lying about what he was doing rather than calling for help!

MOO

That's a good point. He was never really alone which should have been a GOOD thing! Having someone with him via text or phone or in person could have saved his life, instead she pushed him to end it.

Ugh. It's so heartbreaking and senseless. :(
 
Bottom line. He was mentally ill and she knew it. Assisted suicide is illegal. And she is guilty for assisting him when he had second thoughts.

She is culpable in his death imo.
 
I did. I see that she is disturbed and needs help but I have an issue of people being convicted for other people's suicides especially if they are not even present.
I do believe some charges are earned here.. I just don't know what I feel it should be.

The get away driver gets just as much time even when they are not physically present.

Or better yet. Conspiracy means plotting. You don't have to physically be there. Your words are enough to get jail time in a conspiracy case. So free speech and verbal coercion can land you in jail.

What if he was a hitman and had second thoughts about killing someone. But she decides to tell him to go and do it. Wouldnt she be charged as an accomplice.

Assisted suicide is illegal. And it doesn't take a person to be there to assist. Jmo
 
The get away driver gets just as much time even when they are not physically present.

Or better yet. Conspiracy means plotting. You don't have to physically be there. Your words are enough to get jail time in a conspiracy case. So free speech and verbal coercion can land you in jail.

What if he was a hitman and had second thoughts about killing someone. But she decides to tell him to go and do it. Wouldnt she be charged as an accomplice.

Assisted suicide is illegal. And it doesn't take a person to be there to assist. Jmo

That is a good point.. Taking your own life is really something that comes from within. I think she could have helped him and I think she was horrible.. I just don't know if she gets convicted of this.
 
If he was debating on whether to kill someone else, and she was pushing him into it via text and phone messages, would anyone have a problem with her being charged as an accessory to murder?
So why should there be a problem with her being charged, just because his victim was himself?
 
I wonder what kind of upbringing did Michelle Carter had.

I am no psychologist, but she is very manipulative and likes attention. Probably a combination of Histrionic, Borderline, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/summary.htm
 
Joyce Garrard was convicted of murder in her 9 year old granddaughters death. She made the girl run for hours as 'punishment' for lying. She didn't lay her hands on Savvanah but ultimately she was relentless and constantly telling Savvanah to keep moving, don't stop! Etc and that lead to her death. Savvanah was the one who ran herself to death but if it were not for her grandmother constantly telling her to keep running then she would still be alive today. You don't need to put your hands on someone to be complicit in their death. You don't even need to intend for them to die. But the question is would Conrad still be alive today if it weren't for Michelle pushing him into it? I believe he would be. She gave him the idea of co2 poisoning. She gave him the idea to do it in his truck at dusk. She even demanded that day that he HAD to do it. This was someone very vulnerable who just needed some reassurance that things would get better. He wanted her approval so badly. Instead of thinking of him, she thought only of herself, of the sympathy she would gain from her peers for having lost her boyfriend. He never wanted to die, he just wanted the pain he was experiencing to end. He needed someone to take his hand and tell him he was worth it and things would be okay. She took advantage of her power over him. She was on the phone with him telling him to get back into the truck. Those who are depressed don't have the clarity to see things as clearly as those that aren't. He was not strong enough to fight her. She had worn him down so much that he believed she was right. Essentially she forced him to take his own life. He didnt have a chance to consider whether he himself really wanted to die. All he had were his self doubts about himself, his depression and the voice of someone he cared deeply about telling him he was better off dead because he would never be happy.

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The get away driver gets just as much time even when they are not physically present.

Or better yet. Conspiracy means plotting. You don't have to physically be there. Your words are enough to get jail time in a conspiracy case. So free speech and verbal coercion can land you in jail.

What if he was a hitman and had second thoughts about killing someone. But she decides to tell him to go and do it. Wouldnt she be charged as an accomplice.

Assisted suicide is illegal. And it doesn't take a person to be there to assist. Jmo

Would assisting a suicide be charged as involuntary manslaughter or is there a separate charge for that? I'm just curious. What this girl did was definitely morally wrong but I'm not sure about legally wrong. I am uncomfortable about other people being charged when someone takes their own life. Where do you draw the line at how responsible they are. These text messages she sent him were awful and far beyond normal but I had an ex who was always talking about killing himself when things went badly for him. I tried everything to help until I absolutely couldn't take it anymore and told him to just put himself out of his misery. He didn't but if he had should I have been prosecuted?
I realise there's a difference between what I said to my ex and what she said in these messages but where do you draw the line, not in a moral sense but legally speaking?
 
I think the DA chose the involuntary mandlaughter charge because that was the felony that would carry the most weight. I think that they have an excellent chance at a conviction and I also believe that they are taking into account her own overt mental health issues. I expect an attempt at diminished capacity plea for her when all is said and done, and I wonder if the DA will take it or if the DA will take this as an opportunity to create some ground breaking case law that makes it more likely that we can and will see charges when this kind of teen on teen manipulation occurs.

Conrad was a vulnerable person who received no relief from her punishing barrage of "gonna do it? when you gonna do it?" texts. I find the set of texts that imply his family wants him to do it...that they wont mind if he does it and they will get on with their lives to be the absolute worst. She knows she was guilty of the crime-her text to her friend about when LE took his phone is pretty straightforward. "His family will hate me and I could go to jail." YUP. She knew what she had done. jmvho.
 
Would assisting a suicide be charged as involuntary manslaughter or is there a separate charge for that? I'm just curious. What this girl did was definitely morally wrong but I'm not sure about legally wrong. I am uncomfortable about other people being charged when someone takes their own life. Where do you draw the line at how responsible they are. These text messages she sent him were awful and far beyond normal but I had an ex who was always talking about killing himself when things went badly for him. I tried everything to help until I absolutely couldn't take it anymore and told him to just put himself out of his misery. He didn't but if he had should I have been prosecuted?
I realise there's a difference between what I said to my ex and what she said in these messages but where do you draw the line, not in a moral sense but legally speaking?

Did you help him research the most effective methods for killing himself? If he had called you and said he was committing suicide while he was on the phone with you, would you have contacted first responders?
 
Would assisting a suicide be charged as involuntary manslaughter or is there a separate charge for that? I'm just curious. What this girl did was definitely morally wrong but I'm not sure about legally wrong. I am uncomfortable about other people being charged when someone takes their own life. Where do you draw the line at how responsible they are. These text messages she sent him were awful and far beyond normal but I had an ex who was always talking about killing himself when things went badly for him. I tried everything to help until I absolutely couldn't take it anymore and told him to just put himself out of his misery. He didn't but if he had should I have been prosecuted?
I realise there's a difference between what I said to my ex and what she said in these messages but where do you draw the line, not in a moral sense but legally speaking?

In MA law there is a reasonable expectation of a person's duty to act responsibly. Unfortunately, in Massachusetts, "reckless endangerment" only applies to endangerment of a child. But just to get a sense of how the law sees a person's responsibility, where to draw the line, etc., some insight can be gained from the statute;

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter265/Section13L
"For the purposes of this section, such wanton or reckless behavior occurs when a person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that his acts, or omissions where there is a duty to act, would result in serious bodily injury or sexual abuse [to a child.] The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard of the risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.

Also laws pertaining to gross negligence are more in the Civil, rather than Criminal statutes. But with regard to your Ex, it is not unreasonable to become burdened by someone constantly threatening suicide and say something like you did. If Michelle Carter had simply said that and at the very least ended contact with him she would not be accountable at all. His family knew his problems. She could have walked away and have no duty to act. Change her phone number, not respond, etc. They never actually met in person or if they did it was infrequent.

But Michelle Carter took it many steps further IMO. She provided him Motive; ' You'll be better off, at peace, your parents will get over it, seeing Jesus was a sign it's your destiny, etc.', Means; ' The CO research, the generator idea, the coaching on how it happens, how to do it, etc.', and Opportunity; 'today's the day, when are you going to do it, the parking lot, timing, etc.' She actually put him in danger when he was unable to help himself with both her failure to act as well as her actions.

The answer to your question is that no, you should not have been prosecuted if he went ahead with it. You didn't assist in his suicide.

MOO
 
But Michelle Carter took it many steps further IMO. She provided him Motive; ' You'll be better off, at peace, your parents will get over it, seeing Jesus was a sign it's your destiny, etc.', Means; ' The CO research, the generator idea, the coaching on how it happens, how to do it, etc.', and Opportunity; 'today's the day, when are you going to do it, the parking lot, timing, etc.' She actually put him in danger when he was unable to help himself with both her failure to act as well as her actions.
MOO
Exactly. And from what I understand her coaxing went on for weeks. She's a bona fide psychopath and society isn't safe with her walking free. She obviously gets her kicks from this kind of thing, so she'll likely do it again. A psychopath can't change their genetic makeup, but society can step in and take control. If she's punished, maybe next time she'll think long and hard before she tries this again.
 
And then the texts and phone calls to his family. Reveling in their pain perhaps? Checking to see if they suspected? I think LE did a beautiful job gathering evidence and building their case. I bet the DA went long and hard with the bullying statutes to see if this crime would fit, but his responses to her texts for sure didnt make the bullying obvious. Subtle though.

Releasing the discovery related to the grand jury indictment was an important step-this relationship was not one of equals in that one was determined to do harm to the other, but the weapon chosen was Roy's vulnerability. Again, not free speech imvho. And this wont be the last time she does it, and was unlikely to be the first.

I wonder if LE has her medical records-I am sure they do. I wonder if they will be able to have her examined by their own experts...perhaps only if she raises a psych defense. Rock meet hard place.

BBM. Yeah, but just because he was vulnerable enough that he didn't see it as her bullying, doesn't mean bullying didn't occur. It's like victims of date-rape who discover it after the fact. The fact that she constantly harranged him,"when are you gonna do it?" was enough for me to conclude bullying. Noone who truly cares about another person's life goads them into taking it.
 
He didn't "let her" pull his strings any more than any victim "lets" their abuser do abuse them.

He was ill, vulnerable, and at risk. He was ripe for someone to abuse and take advantage of. If it weren't for her pushing him the way she did I believe he would still be here. At the very least she should have gotten him some help. Wait. I take that back, at the very least she could have walked away and not kept pressuring him into suicide. Maybe if he'd been free of her he would have had a chance to live.


Exactly. He had second thoughts about leaving his family. He was crying out for help, to be stopped. He trusted her. If it weren't for her egging him on and lying about how his family wouldn't miss him and misleading them, perhaps he'd still be alive.
 
Would assisting a suicide be charged as involuntary manslaughter or is there a separate charge for that? I'm just curious. What this girl did was definitely morally wrong but I'm not sure about legally wrong. I am uncomfortable about other people being charged when someone takes their own life. Where do you draw the line at how responsible they are. These text messages she sent him were awful and far beyond normal but I had an ex who was always talking about killing himself when things went badly for him. I tried everything to help until I absolutely couldn't take it anymore and told him to just put himself out of his misery. He didn't but if he had should I have been prosecuted?
I realise there's a difference between what I said to my ex and what she said in these messages but where do you draw the line, not in a moral sense but legally speaking?


Yeah, but the difference between you and her is- did you actively harangue him to do it??? She did on a daily basis and hid his actions from his family. This was not a one-time snapping as your response probably was.
 
I think her textes read as if they are right out of a Stephen King novel.

It blows me away that as soon as she knew he was dead she texted his family asking if the knew where he was..pure evil.

I am just sharing the link that has the full text conversation.

I know it already exists in this post but this way newbies won't have to search for it if I bump it up.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/276206526/Michelle-Carter-Texts
 
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