MA MA - Joan Risch, 30, Lincoln, 24 Oct 1961

[Laughing]

In general, I am old, but were paper towels on a roll available at this time, or is it maybe butcher's paper?

I still think the black case behind the table holds a sewing machine.

Thanks, Laughing

:seeya:

 

[dogperson]

The small pail with the beer/liquor bottles would probably fit under the sink cabinet. Maybe while her daughter was at the neighbor's and her son was asleep she decided to do some tidying up. She might have pulled the pail out to empty it and something happened about that time. I wouldn't think with small kids she would just leave a pail full of bottles that once contained alcohol out in the open where they could get into them. I still think she had an accident or medical emergency that afternoon. Maybe slipped and hit her head? Maybe cut herself on a glass bottle, bled profusely, and while trying to clean up the blood with the paper towels she slipped in the blood? Became faint?

If no one had seen a woman walking along the road that might have been Joan with blood on her, I'd think she was either abducted or she just walked out of her life and staged the house to look like someone attacked her. But I feel like if someone attacked her they wouldn't have let her get away to wander along the roadway.

 

[armywife210]

The following link contains pics of the kitchen. These pics have caused me to go hmm? more than a few times. Studying them is not easy on my phone so let me know what you see. Am I reading too much into the kitchen?

https://the-line-up.com/joan-risch

The roll of paper towels on the floor in a kitchen where there isn't much out of place. They aren't the type of thing you leave on the floor with a small child. There is something on the floor in the blood. Anyone know what it is? My best guess is she was putting a the new roll on when whatever happened happened. Maybe they were knocked off in a struggle or she dropped them and just hadn't picked them up yet. Probably means nothing.

The trash can. Not a trash can. It's a pail. I can imagine no housewife using a pail as a trash can. The little square under the cupboard trashcans, yes, but not a pail. With kids she'd be emptying constantly. The items in/on the pail look placed there.

The kitchen pics scream to me that the pail holds the answers. Is there an inventory of the pail?

The pail actually looks exactly like one I had in my bedroom as a child. It's the same size, same shape, same handle. Mine was a very light yellow. I can't remember exactly what was on it but it was a small animal on one side in the middle of it. Maybe about 1 1/2-2 inches. It was used as a trash can but it was originally my diaper pail. I was born in '74, my brothers in '70 and '62. I'm unsure when it was purchased or if it was used for my brothers first. All that being said, it seems odd for a kitchen. Maybe it was in a different room and she just stuck additional trash from the counter in it to take out. [emoji848]


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[liz b.]

It could be that the pail was placed right in the middle of the floor like that. As though someone wanted the empty liquor and beer bottles to be seen. Where did Joan actually keep that pail ? Under the sink ? It doesn't look like it was a garbage container.

Curiously, the placement of the pail kind of reminds me of the photo of the wire clothes hanger on top of a car outside the house. I forget if it was a LE vehicle.. but both items, the pail overflowing with empty liquor bottles, and the wire hanger seem to be placed where they are to tell the viewer of the photos a story...jmo

 

[Stella]

I find nothing odd about the pail used as a trash container. Perhaps it was the only size that would fit under the sink. Most women back then tried to hide their garbage out of sight because it was smelly and unsightly. No plastic trash bags back then; usually housewives would just stick a paper trash bag inside as a liner.

 

[Ozoner]

The small pail with the beer/liquor bottles would probably fit under the sink cabinet. Maybe while her daughter was at the neighbor's and her son was asleep she decided to do some tidying up. She might have pulled the pail out to empty it and something happened about that time. I wouldn't think with small kids she would just leave a pail full of bottles that once contained alcohol out in the open where they could get into them. I still think she had an accident or medical emergency that afternoon. Maybe slipped and hit her head? Maybe cut herself on a glass bottle, bled profusely, and while trying to clean up the blood with the paper towels she slipped in the blood? Became faint?

If no one had seen a woman walking along the road that might have been Joan with blood on her, I'd think she was either abducted or she just walked out of her life and staged the house to look like someone attacked her. But I feel like if someone attacked her they wouldn't have let her get away to wander along the roadway.

I agree with you. I think she most likely injured herself or had some kind of medical emergency but then wandered into the wrong spot and died. She could have stumbled into a flooded pit and drowned, or she could have passed out and died in the woods. Even if she had been mere yards from the road she might not have been found. She would have become covered with fallen leaves within days.

 

[liz b.]

Did LE ever search the areas around the roadway ? I thought they had. I did read that the woman seen walking along the roadway did not falter, or sway, or seem disoriented. She was said to be seen walking with her head down, walking fairly quickly. I do believe that if she had suffered a medical mishap at her home she would have gone to her neighbor's house, rather than deliberately leave her two very young kids, jmo though.

Something I wonder about : the first LEO on the scene believed it was a suicide. Did he think this because of things that the neighbor told him ?

 

[Skigirl]

I find nothing odd about the pail used as a trash container. Perhaps it was the only size that would fit under the sink. Most women back then tried to hide their garbage out of sight because it was smelly and unsightly. No plastic trash bags back then; usually housewives would just stick a paper trash bag inside as a liner.

My mom used paper trash bags as liners well into the 80s!

 

[Skigirl]

Did LE ever search the areas around the roadway ? I thought they had. I did read that the woman seen walking along the roadway did not falter, or sway, or seem disoriented. She was said to be seen walking with her head down, walking fairly quickly. I do believe that if she had suffered a medical mishap at her home she would have gone to her neighbor's house, rather than deliberately leave her two very young kids, jmo though.

Something I wonder about : the first LEO on the scene believed it was a suicide. Did he think this because of things that the neighbor told him ?

Maybe because the probability of suicide is higher than that of abduction out of the home during the day? Just a guess...

 

[liz b.]

Maybe because the probability of suicide is higher than that of abduction out of the home during the day? Just a guess...

Interesting thought. I would have thought a suicide would be more likely if Joan's body was present ? And the blood drops which abruptly stopped in the driveway would work against suicide I suppose. jmo, though.

 

[Skigirl]

Interesting thought. I would have thought a suicide would be more likely if Joan's body was present ? And the blood drops which abruptly stopped in the driveway would work against suicide I suppose. jmo, though.

If I recall, the officer who responded said that his first thought was that it was a suicide, and that he would find her body upstairs. So at least at first, he did not know she had disappeared.

 

[dogperson]

The Wikipedia article says the neighbor saw her carrying something red in her outstretched arms going from the car to the garage. For some reason I'd always pictured it the other way around, with her moving from the direction of the house toward the car. I thought maybe she had bloody paper towels in her arms. It sounds like she was already wounded and in a state of confusion when the neighbor saw her, wandering around disoriented. This might explain the areas of blood on the car, as if she leaned against the car in several spots or placed the bloody towels or whatever they were on the car. A person who is thinking clearly would go get help from nearby neighbors but I don't think she was thinking clearly.

We don't know how much blood she actually lost. The smears in the kitchen look like quite a lot, although the investigators didn't think it was enough to cause loss of life. But we don't know how much she might have soaked up with paper towels or how much she lost while wandering down the road, if indeed she is the woman who was sighted with something running down her legs. Blood loss alone may have caused her to collapse somewhere along the way or to wander in a confused state into a wooded area.

 

[liz b.]

The Wikipedia article says the neighbor saw her carrying something red in her outstretched arms going from the car to the garage. For some reason I'd always pictured it the other way around, with her moving from the direction of the house toward the car. I thought maybe she had bloody paper towels in her arms. It sounds like she was already wounded and in a state of confusion when the neighbor saw her, wandering around disoriented. This might explain the areas of blood on the car, as if she leaned against the car in several spots or placed the bloody towels or whatever they were on the car. A person who is thinking clearly would go get help from nearby neighbors but I don't think she was thinking clearly.

We don't know how much blood she actually lost. The smears in the kitchen look like quite a lot, although the investigators didn't think it was enough to cause loss of life. But we don't know how much she might have soaked up with paper towels or how much she lost while wandering down the road, if indeed she is the woman who was sighted with something running down her legs. Blood loss alone may have caused her to collapse somewhere along the way or to wander in a confused state into a wooded area.

Unless she really did have an accident that day when she was driving ? And started bleeding when she was in the car. I have not been able to find any explanation for the damage to the rear of her car that LE mentioned.

 

[jgfitzge]

Interesting thought. I would have thought a suicide would be more likely if Joan's body was present ? And the blood drops which abruptly stopped in the driveway would work against suicide I suppose. jmo, though.

I don't know, suicide? If the first policeman on the scene came up the driveway, and then into the kitchen and viewed the blood, and other items in the vicinity it strikes me odd he would initially think suicide...If Barbara Barker said anything to him (ex. "she's been going through a lot lately...") upon his arrival he didn't put it in his report. Maybe, there was a recent suicide in the town and that was his reference point, not sure.

 

[dogperson]

The neighbor, Barbara, brought her son over at around 1pm to play with Joan's daughter. Joan then took both children back to the neighbor's house shortly before 2pm, saying she would be back. The two children had not been playing at Joan's house for very long, so I wonder if she gave her neighbor a reason for bringing them over to her house. By 2:15 Barbara spotted Joan outside with something red in her hands. Was Joan feeling ill right before 2pm? Did she notice she was bleeding and wanted to take Lillian next door so she wouldn't see it? Was she expecting someone at 2pm? (I'm not suggesting she invited another man over, but someone might have invited himself over and she couldn't stop him. It would be crazy to invite a man over in the middle of the afternoon in a neighborhood full of housewives, especially when the schoolday was almost over and children would soon be all over the place.)

I tend to discount the abortion theory. I think that came up because police asked her husband if she might be pregnant. His reply that she wouldn't have been unhappy if she was suggests that the police might have insinuated she underwent a procedure. But she might have spontaneously lost a very early pregnancy that she hadn't yet informed her husband about. Or she might have been so early in the pregnancy she didn't know it herself. At first she may not have realized what was happening until she began bleeding so heavily she started to call an emergency number and then became disoriented and wandered away from the house.

It's a shame no one who saw her that day (if it was her) stopped to see if she was ok. She might have survived to enjoy a long and happy life.

 

[korpdrs]

I don't think it's likely that an abortion explains things. The kitchen shows signs of a struggle. I don't think it was staged.

I'm late in catching up to this forum but I agree. Something just says "foul play" to me.

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[liz b.]

I recall reading a long way back something about an unmarked police car being seen in Joan's driveway several times. Looking for this info....interesting if true.

 

[jgfitzge]

I recall reading a long way back something about an unmarked police car being seen in Joan's driveway several times. Looking for this info....interesting if true.

Liz, you have some of the information correct. The two-tone car sightings and whether it was an unmarked police vehicle has always held the key as far as I am concerned. The issue is not without its controversy as well. IMO there were several credible sightings of a blue two-tone car in the Risch's driveway, coming out of the driveway, and on one or more of the surrounding streets. The police seemed a bit dismissive of these accounts and said they are mixing it up with a possible unmarked police car at the house after 4:30. I believe the eyewitnesses and I find the police explanation...let me be kind and say curious. Liz, I think (?) I recall reading an account or a newspaper story where there was several sightings of a blue two-toned vehicle in the weeks leading up to Joan's disappearance. These sightings were explained by someone (?) saying it was an undercover or unmarked police vehicle. The only verified eyewitness account I recall where the person actually saw a two-tone vehicle in the driveway before October 24th was the milkman. This sighting has always held a key to me. Given my cynical nature, The whole two-tone car story, the police rebuttal to the sightings and whether it was an undercover vehicle gets me speculating on what may or may not have happened here....

 

[liz b.]

Liz, you have some of the information correct. The two-tone car sightings and whether it was an unmarked police vehicle has always held the key as far as I am concerned. The issue is not without its controversy as well. IMO there were several credible sightings of a blue two-tone car in the Risch's driveway, coming out of the driveway, and on one or more of the surrounding streets. The police seemed a bit dismissive of these accounts and said they are mixing it up with a possible unmarked police car at the house after 4:30. I believe the eyewitnesses and I find the police explanation...let me be kind and say curious. Liz, I think (?) I recall reading an account or a newspaper story where there was several sightings of a blue two-toned vehicle in the weeks leading up to Joan's disappearance. These sightings were explained by someone (?) saying it was an undercover or unmarked police vehicle. The only verified eyewitness account I recall where the person actually saw a two-tone vehicle in the driveway before October 24th was the milkman. This sighting has always held a key to me. Given my cynical nature, The whole two-tone car story, the police rebuttal to the sightings and whether it was an undercover vehicle gets me speculating on what may or may not have happened here....

Yes, that's what I had read, that there was a car parked in Joan's driveway in the weeks leading up to her disappearance and it was later said to be an unmarked police car. Was a LEO involved with Joan, I wonder ?

 

[jgfitzge]

Yes, that's what I had read, that there was a car parked in Joan's driveway in the weeks leading up to her disappearance and it was later said to be an unmarked police car. Was a LEO involved with Joan, I wonder ?

Bingo Liz - in a few of my previous posts I allude to this theory. Obviously, it is speculative but I have given it a lot of thought. Let me state some of the reasons I considered a LEO being involved in Joan Risch's disappearance. I considered some of the other theories that have been put out there (ex. staging her disappearance) and put them way down the list of possibilities. I rarely believe in coincidences. I look at crimes and related mysteries and I usually find the reasons are as old as the bible...money, love, lust, envy, drugs, etc...The other thing I often find is a lot of the unsolved crimes and disappearances, at least around here, involve some type of LE malfeasance, sometimes innocent/benign, other times intentional. Always remember like a ship captain, LE controls the investigation on where it goes...Like the rumors and scuttlebutt, I always thought the person responsible was local...whether it was a neighbor or maybe a LEO. Again, speculation on my part

So, Ok, so let me run a theory by you that I have been mulling over for a while now. Do you think one of the younger Lincoln police officers or plain clothes seeing a young, attractive, new neighbor with a husband that travels might have pulled up the "welcome wagon?" Think about it. Maybe an affair began, and it got out of hand and/or Joan got pregnant. That is why she took out those books IMO. That is why the short time frame (April to October) is a major factor to me. Enough time to be early in pregnancy but not showing. Like a few other posters I truly believe Martin Risch knew something was going on

It is a vehicle hidden in plain sight, it has a legit reason to be everywhere and anywhere in the town. That is why no neighborhood fear of a strangler or boogeyman took place in the weeks and months afterward. A high school teenager, who gets off the school bus each day at 2:30 like clockwork, sees the two tone car and LE says she was mistaken and it must have seen it after 4:30?? However, they could not use that excuse on anyone who saw the two tone care in the days and weeks before the disappearance. Does my speculated theory have merit or am I way off here?