MA MA - Joan Risch, 30, Lincoln, 24 Oct 1961

[puzzleme]

I wondered​ the same thing to.

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[Ozoner]

"Cutting grass before an abortion" Exactly, yet points to why she has no time for another child! I am also very suspicious of no obvious scene where this abortion took place in the house - there should have been a place where it looked like she was lying down for this procedure. I like the intruder abduction theory, where she gets away, but is picked up again after no one nearby to witness.

I don't really subscribe to the abortion theory, but if there was an abortion, it would have been performed a day or two earlier.

I think a ruptured fallopian tube from an ectopic pregnancy is far more likely than an abortion.

A miscarriage or simply heavy uterine/vaginal bleeding as a result of her dental anesthetic is a second possibility.

I've also wondered about the beer cans. Maybe Joan had a drinking problem that she'd been hiding from her husband, and maybe the beer and dental anesthetic caused bleeding somewhere in her intestines, and some of the blood started coming out. If she was bleeding internally, she may have actually lost more blood (from her circulatory system) than what was in the house, and that may have affected her cognition.

Whatever caused her bleeding, I think she wandered away and died, possibly by falling into a flooded pit or trench. She may have been disoriented, but she may have been trying to walk to a hospital.

Do we know whether her car was found unlocked? I think it's possible that she was walking because she had misplaced her car keys or locked them in the car.

 

[jgfitzge]

I don't really subscribe to the abortion theory, but if there was an abortion, it would have been performed a day or two earlier.

I think a ruptured fallopian tube from an ectopic pregnancy is far more likely than an abortion.

A miscarriage or simply heavy uterine/vaginal bleeding as a result of her dental anesthetic is a second possibility.

I've also wondered about the beer cans. Maybe Joan had a drinking problem that she'd been hiding from her husband, and maybe the beer and dental anesthetic caused bleeding somewhere in her intestines, and some of the blood started coming out. If she was bleeding internally, she may have actually lost more blood (from her circulatory system) than what was in the house, and that may have affected her cognition.

Whatever caused her bleeding, I think she wandered away and died, possibly by falling into a flooded pit or trench. She may have been disoriented, but she may have been trying to walk to a hospital.

Do we know whether her car was found unlocked? I think it's possible that she was walking because she had misplaced her car keys or locked them in the car.

Hello Ozoner, good questions...

A few comments concerning your posting -

My position on the Risch case has always been, "Well of course, anything is possible, but some things rate a higher probability of happening than others." So, yea, I consider the botched abortion theory. I also put it way down the list of possibilities. I do hold the miscarriage theory higher due to its suddenness and unpredictability. It also seems to fit the 4-6 month time frame if there was an affair going on soon after moving to Lincoln. I also do not think anything with having a simple cavity filled caused or contributed to her mental confusion. The beer bottles/drinking topic has also made me think a lot. Martin accounted for the whiskey bottle yet, not the beer bottles. Did he know something? If he was quick thinking and covering for her, he could have just as easily accounted for the beer bottles as well...Yet, if Joan was the suburban housewife with the drinking problem, where would she hide the beer? And, why dispose of it in the kitchen trash can? This is one of those questions where neighborhood scuttlebutt would help. By the way, as I mentioned before, Lincoln was a dry town in 1961, so if she bought beer, it had to be next town over, Waltham.

I have always found her falling into a pit or construction site and subsequently buried a bit unbelievable. There was an air/ground search for her in the days and weeks that followed. I can't see someone the next day mounting his tractor or dump-truck and not seeing a body in daylight...

I don't know about the locked car question. Odd, in the picture you see LE outside the car, no car doors open. Maybe that is why the intact coat hanger is on the roof? to pop the lock. I know today, people are obsessive about locking their cars with the remote and the fact that we have more valuables in our cars today. But, were people that way about locking their cars in 1961??

 

[Ozoner]

Hello Ozoner, good questions...

A few comments concerning your posting -

My position on the Risch case has always been, "Well of course, anything is possible, but some things rate a higher probability of happening than others." So, yea, I consider the botched abortion theory. I also put it way down the list of possibilities. I do hold the miscarriage theory higher due to its suddenness and unpredictability. It also seems to fit the 4-6 month time frame if there was an affair going on soon after moving to Lincoln. I also do not think anything with having a simple cavity filled caused or contributed to her mental confusion. The beer bottles/drinking topic has also made me think a lot. Martin accounted for the whiskey bottle yet, not the beer bottles. Did he know something? If he was quick thinking and covering for her, he could have just as easily accounted for the beer bottles as well...Yet, if Joan was the suburban housewife with the drinking problem, where would she hide the beer? And, why dispose of it in the kitchen trash can? This is one of those questions where neighborhood scuttlebutt would help. By the way, as I mentioned before, Lincoln was a dry town in 1961, so if she bought beer, it had to be next town over, Waltham.

I have always found her falling into a pit or construction site and subsequently buried a bit unbelievable. There was an air/ground search for her in the days and weeks that followed. I can't see someone the next day mounting his tractor or dump-truck and not seeing a body in daylight...

I don't know about the locked car question. Odd, in the picture you see LE outside the car, no car doors open. Maybe that is why the intact coat hanger is on the roof? to pop the lock. I know today, people are obsessive about locking their cars with the remote and the fact that we have more valuables in our cars today. But, were people that way about locking their cars in 1961??

You raise some good points.

I would agree that Joan likely would have been spotted if she had fallen into a dry pit. However, I've seen plenty of pits and trenches at construction sites that were filled with water, and that's why I can't dismiss the possibility. She may have simply wandered into the woods and died.

I'm still skeptical about the likelihood of foul play,but I can't rule it out. It's possible that someone picked her up to try to help her but then concealed her death out of fear if being implicated.

 

[DD Byrd]

I find it hard to believe that a woman with blood running down her legs was seen the same afternoon as whatever happened in the Risch house happened, and it's NOT the same woman. So either these sightings were mistaken (how exactly do you mistake those descriptions) or it was her. And if it WAS her she most likely didn't plan it as part of a ruse to disappear, I think the average person (at least then) would have assumed if they are walking bloodied and dazed down the road someone will stop. If you're running away there goes that plan...

 

[jgfitzge]

I find it hard to believe that a woman with blood running down her legs was seen the same afternoon as whatever happened in the Risch house happened, and it's NOT the same woman. So either these sightings were mistaken (how exactly do you mistake those descriptions) or it was her. And if it WAS her she most likely didn't plan it as part of a ruse to disappear, I think the average person (at least then) would have assumed if they are walking bloodied and dazed down the road someone will stop. If you're running away there goes that plan...

You are confirming what I truly believe. From Day 1 I put the eyewitness accounts of seeing Joan on 2A and 128 as believable. In addition the Planned Disappearance/Start over Elsewhere theory never held any water with me - it would have involved more than a few people in the planning. Now, if we could only figure out that two/tone mystery auto...

 

[DD Byrd]

It seems that more than one witness saw a car in the driveway, two/tone or not, so that's significant. Botched abortion doesn't explain blood in the baby's room if we're assuming that's where the bleeding STARTED. The majority of the blood loss seems centered in the kitchen, so she's bleeding from a bonk on the head in the baby's room and then is really walloped back downstairs? Or there's a minor injury upstairs that triggers a miscarriage downstairs? Can't it be ascertained whether there was uterine tissue in the main blood pool?

I'd imagine someday we will be able to tell from a blood drop whether the victim was pregnant. But the samples in this case are probably gone.

 

[Ozoner]

It seems that more than one witness saw a car in the driveway, two/tone or not, so that's significant. Botched abortion doesn't explain blood in the baby's room if we're assuming that's where the bleeding STARTED. The majority of the blood loss seems centered in the kitchen, so she's bleeding from a bonk on the head in the baby's room and then is really walloped back downstairs? Or there's a minor injury upstairs that triggers a miscarriage downstairs? Can't it be ascertained whether there was uterine tissue in the main blood pool?

I'd imagine someday we will be able to tell from a blood drop whether the victim was pregnant. But the samples in this case are probably gone.

I think you read my mind because I've been wondering about whether investigators could tell uterine blood from non-uterine blood. I agree that there isn't much chance of the physical evidence still being around.

 

[Skigirl]

It seems that more than one witness saw a car in the driveway, two/tone or not, so that's significant. Botched abortion doesn't explain blood in the baby's room if we're assuming that's where the bleeding STARTED. The majority of the blood loss seems centered in the kitchen, so she's bleeding from a bonk on the head in the baby's room and then is really walloped back downstairs? Or there's a minor injury upstairs that triggers a miscarriage downstairs? Can't it be ascertained whether there was uterine tissue in the main blood pool?

I'd imagine someday we will be able to tell from a blood drop whether the victim was pregnant. But the samples in this case are probably gone.

These days, you can tell from a drop of blood if someone is pregnant. With less than half a tablespoon of blood it's possible to know if a woman is carrying a baby with Down's syndrome/trisomies and/or what sex the baby is.

 

[DD Byrd]

Exactly, so it's whether any samples were held on to and even then, if they haven't degraded beyond the point of our testing capabilities now. But even with just pictures of the scene I'd think current investigators could possibly tell spatter from drips, and her direction of travel.

I'm most intrigued by the "arms outstretched carrying something red." There only seem so many viable possibilities for that. And I lean toward it was indeed her seen walking, in which case she was in shock at the very least. Might she have had an unwanted visitor, attempted to call her husband or police...visitor rips phone off wall and hits her with it, she may or may not have been knocked out and/or suffers miscarriage. He leaves. She comes to and wanders off.

 

[liz b.]

Exactly, so it's whether any samples were held on to and even then, if they haven't degraded beyond the point of our testing capabilities now. But even with just pictures of the scene I'd think current investigators could possibly tell spatter from drips, and her direction of travel.

I'm most intrigued by the "arms outstretched carrying something red." There only seem so many viable possibilities for that. And I lean toward it was indeed her seen walking, in which case she was in shock at the very least. Might she have had an unwanted visitor, attempted to call her husband or police...visitor rips phone off wall and hits her with it, she may or may not have been knocked out and/or suffers miscarriage. He leaves. She comes to and wanders off.

I doubt that she would have wandered off in that scenario. Leaving both of her children to fend for themselves. If she had had an unwanted visitor, she likely would have gone over to the neighbor who was watching her daughter. Also, it was estimated that she had lost between half a pint to a pint of blood. Not sure that would have caused her to become so disoriented that she wandered away ? Don't people give that amount of blood when they donate blood ? I think that not all the facts we think are true are true. And there are likely some important facts about Joan's background that we don't know right now. We need the case file, jmo.

 

[Ozoner]

I doubt that she would have wandered off in that scenario. Leaving both of her children to fend for themselves. If she had had an unwanted visitor, she likely would have gone over to the neighbor who was watching her daughter. Also, it was estimated that she had lost between half a pint to a pint of blood. Not sure that would have caused her to become so disoriented that she wandered away ? Don't people give that amount of blood when they donate blood ? I think that not all the facts we think are true are true. And there are likely some important facts about Joan's background that we don't know right now. We need the case file, jmo.

Don't some people faint when they give blood? The police can't know how much blood had soaked into Joan's clothing, so the estimate may be low.

 

[DD Byrd]

I'm not as concerned with the amount of blood lost, it's the impact to the head that causes problems, whether a drop is shed or not. At which point she may or may not have remembered she HAD children in those following moments. As for an unwanted visitor, he's may not have given her the choice to "go over to a neighbor..."

 

[liz b.]

I'm not as concerned with the amount of blood lost, it's the impact to the head that causes problems, whether a drop is shed or not. At which point she may or may not have remembered she HAD children in those following moments. As for an unwanted visitor, he's may not have given her the choice to "go over to a neighbor..."

Yet we don't know if she had an impact to her head ? As to an unwanted visitor, are we thinking that he came in, beat Joan bloody, maybe raped her, and then...left ? At that point I would have thought that Joan would have run to her neighbor for help ?

One point I am curious about is the report that stated that there looked to be damage to the rear end of Joan's vehicle. Did someone rear end her car when she was coming back from the dentist. did he possibly follow her home ?

 

[liz b.]

The damage to the vehicle's rear end is also interesting because I have never read anything in which Martin mentions it, or explains what happened to the car. It might mean that the car was in fact damaged on the day Joan disappeared, and thus martin never knew about it. I suppose it is possible that Joan's car was rear ended, and later that day she started bleeding, a miscarriage.

The problem with all theories is that none of them really explain why Joan walked away from the place where her two year old was sleeping. jmo This is why the actual police report would be so helpful. jmo There is likely a lot more in that report that has never been made public. jmo

 

[DetectiveEva]

Where I can find a report about damaged rear end of Joan's car? I read many old newspapers about Joan Risch but I've never found about such incident.

 

[liz b.]

Where I can find a report about damaged rear end of Joan's car? I read many old newspapers about Joan Risch but I've never found about such incident.

It is mentioned here in old news reports. I only saw it mentioned once, but it stood out to me...

 

[jgfitzge]

It is mentioned here in old news reports. I only saw it mentioned once, but it stood out to me...

Liz, refresh my memory but didn't I read somewhere that Martin Risch when asked about the damage said it may have been due to Joan entering and exiting the garage?

 

[liz b.]

Liz, refresh my memory but didn't I read somewhere that Martin Risch when asked about the damage said it may have been due to Joan entering and exiting the garage?

Never heard that one before ? jmo I note that he said "may have been caused " ?

 

[Ozoner]

Never heard that one before ? jmo I note that he said "may have been caused " ?

I've been leaning towards a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, but with the beer cans and the car damage, I'm starting to think that perhaps Joan had a secret drinking problem, injured herself while intoxicated, and wandered off.