MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 Jun 2000

[Pettibon Junction]

One thing I have never understood about the re-enactments of Molly Bish's case like that of the Dark Minds episode is why does the killer have to be hiding in the woods? Why can he not be on the beach?

Because Dark Minds is kind of a dumb show?

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I think on the episode of Dark Minds about Molly Bish's case what the police officer that investigated Molly's case meant was that the area where her bones were found was an area where they have found other random items like bed sheets and mattresses. I think it was a figure of speech. Basically the site where Molly Bish's body was found, Whiskey Hill, was near a road and trash and other debris may have collected on that spot. Today from what I read it is home to a race track.

Like I said, the killer chose a well-known dump site to leave the body. Many, many killers (serials especially) have done this before. It's a signature move on his part.

 

[somequestions]

Like I said, the killer chose a well-known dump site to leave the body. Many, many killers (serials especially) have done this before. It's a signature move on his part.

I agree. Serial killers do use dump sites. I really do not look at Molly Bish's case from a criminal profiler perspective like profiler John Kelly. I agree that it is most likely a hometown guy who took Molly Bish. That is for professional personal profilers to look at and study. I look at the case from a geographic profile perspective, a pond, a cemetery, and Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA.

That is why I like the movie The Pledge. That movie is a text book example of geographic profiling(at least in my opinion that is what I took away from the movie). As for whether this case hold any sort of geographic profiling pattern is for someone who is a professional geographic profiler to decide. It would be interesting to know where a geographic profiler thinks the murderer in Molly Bish's case lives.

As for Molly Bish's case I think it can be discussed for a very long time. I guess based on tv show re-enactments that are not that accurate. It would be nice to come up with some actual information that helps solve the case.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I agree. Serial killers do use dump sites. I really do not look at Molly Bish's case from a criminal profiler perspective like profiler John Kelly. I agree that it is most likely a hometown guy who took Molly Bish. That is for professional personal profilers to look at and study. I look at the case from a geographic profile perspective, a pond, a cemetery, and Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA.

That is why I like the movie The Pledge. That movie is a text book example of geographic profiling(at least in my opinion that is what I took away from the movie). As for whether this case hold any sort of geographic profiling pattern is for someone who is a professional geographic profiler to decide. It would be interesting to know where a geographic profiler thinks the murderer in Molly Bish's case lives.

As for Molly Bish's case I think it can be discussed for a very long time. I guess based on tv show re-enactments that are not that accurate. It would be nice to come up with some actual information that helps solve the case.

It takes all kinds. I look at things from the psychological aspect of a predator, so I suppose I'd consider myself more of an armchair profiler. I'm interested in the ways in which people become victims, how they wind up on the radar of a predator, and what a predator then does when once he makes the decision to strike. I'll bet if you and I sat down and looked at a map and then compared it to a list of known offenders within the geographical parameters, we could probably solve this damn thing together.

Off-topic, have you read the novel 'The Pledge?' It's an old German one that's been translated into English and it's kind of a meta exploration of detective novels and their tropes, confronting the reader, ultimately, with the ugly truth that sometimes, the bad guys get away and even if you're right, that doesn't necessarily mean anyone's gonna listen to you. The full title, in fact, is actually 'The Pledge: Requiem For The Detective Novel,' which is quite fitting. Worth a read if you're into it!

 

[dotr]

I agree. Serial killers do use dump sites. I really do not look at Molly Bish's case from a criminal profiler perspective like profiler John Kelly. I agree that it is most likely a hometown guy who took Molly Bish. That is for professional personal profilers to look at and study. I look at the case from a geographic profile perspective, a pond, a cemetery, and Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA.

That is why I like the movie The Pledge. That movie is a text book example of geographic profiling(at least in my opinion that is what I took away from the movie). As for whether this case hold any sort of geographic profiling pattern is for someone who is a professional geographic profiler to decide. It would be interesting to know where a geographic profiler thinks the murderer in Molly Bish's case lives.

As for Molly Bish's case I think it can be discussed for a very long time. I guess based on tv show re-enactments that are not that accurate. It would be nice to come up with some actual information that helps solve the case.

Never heard about that book and film before, will have to check it out, thanks!
[video=youtube;7Oh6Av_Z1Wk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oh6Av_Z1Wk[/video]

 

[somequestions]

It takes all kinds. I look at things from the psychological aspect of a predator, so I suppose I'd consider myself more of an armchair profiler. I'm interested in the ways in which people become victims, how they wind up on the radar of a predator, and what a predator then does when once he makes the decision to strike. I'll bet if you and I sat down and looked at a map and then compared it to a list of known offenders within the geographical parameters, we could probably solve this damn thing together.

Off-topic, have you read the novel 'The Pledge?' It's an old German one that's been translated into English and it's kind of a meta exploration of detective novels and their tropes, confronting the reader, ultimately, with the ugly truth that sometimes, the bad guys get away and even if you're right, that doesn't necessarily mean anyone's gonna listen to you. The full title, in fact, is actually 'The Pledge: Requiem For The Detective Novel,' which is quite fitting. Worth a read if you're into it!

I read that the book, The Pledge, is actually better than the movie and the movie was pretty good. I have not read the book but will try to check it out. As for solving the case, I think the police probably have asked profilers psychological and geographic what they think about the case. The police are the professionals who know all the information and I think if they saw some pattern they would act on it. Profiling is an inexact science. I could say for example that I think Molly Bish's killer is from Warren, MA, but how do we know this for sure? Maybe he was visiting relatives in the area or grew up there as a kid and stopped by the pond? As for locations geographic profiling tends to work best with multiple locations and we really have no idea if Molly Bish and Holly Piirainen's case are even linked or the same killer.

There is something else the movie The Pledge does very well. It shows what happens when you become emotionally attached to any sort of crime. I know what I am about to write may sound insensitive but anyone investigating any sort of crime should try to stay emotionally detached. It is easier said than done, but emotions can tend to cloud good judgement and decision making.

As for who killed Molly Bish, since Rodney Stanger fished at Commins Pond and hunted where Molly's body was found, it could very well be him. As for Holly Piirainen, if the Armes guy lived in the area that would certainly fit along with other circumstantial evidence with him being the killer. The point is that maybe people are right about who they think killed both girls and just were not able to prove it.

That is the saddest part of the movie The Pledge. I do not want to give the ending away if you have not seen it.

 

[somequestions]

There was one interesting part of the 48 hours mystery about Molly Bish's case. There is a part where they show what looks to be a playground with tractor tires in the ground and picnic tables. Since there was crime tape around the area, I thought that was kind of unique there was a playground type area on Whiskey Hill where her body was found. Maybe that is how the killer knew the area?

What is unique about the case as a whole is that in most murder cases police end up talking to the eventual murderer early on in the investigation. In this case, if the white car did not belong to suspect Rodney Stanger or his brother, then that means that for all this time the person that murdered Molly Bish has remained elusive to police contact. That is probably why this is such a tough mystery to solve.

 

[jaejae]

Hello to everyone I have a Proboards Forum where I research the EAR/ONS or Golden State Killer case and I also research unsolved New England murders and disappearances. I notice today the links to the Savage Watch pages appear not to be working does anybody have any information on this and if it is a permanent thing but because there was a great deal of good information on these pages. Great site by the way.

 

[jaejae]

Hello to everyone I have a Proboards Forum where I research the EAR/ONS or Golden State Killer case and I also research unsolved New England murders and disappearances. I notice today the links to the Savage Watch pages appear not to be working does anybody have any information on this and if it is a permanent thing but because there was a great deal of good information on these pages. Great site by the way.

I have been to the Twitter site for SavageWatch and it states they are currently moving to a new server. Hopefully the site will be up again soon as I think it is the best on the net for information on New England cases like that of Molly Bish

 

[babyblujems]

With cases like Molly Bish, the reason it is hard to come to conclusions is because you do not know what the police know in terms of the investigation.

I assume for example that the Bish family must live northeast of Commins Pond because of the theory of the white car parked at the base of Commins Pond road near the car wash like the 48 hours episode suggests. That is why I thought it unique Mr. Bish said he could hear search dogs and helicopters because I think that would be towards the general direction of where Whiskey Hill is in Palmer, MA.

As for suspects I can guess all day long. I thought it strange on the Disappeared program Maggie Bish, Molly's mom, said that "he had brought a book over for her to look at swimsuits" so that made me think the parks commissioner guy knows where Molly Bish lives. So I am guessing he stopped by to see if she was at home before he called police? Again, I do not know since I am not privy to the same information as police. And maybe he did not feel it necessary to stop by the Bish residence. First aid kit open I think to myself person is injured and went to hospital. But we all think differently.

Then again, the sand truck person would be most likely in terms of the way I would think most abductions would take place. When I read how Elizabeth Smart's case was solved, that did not surprise me.

Until I saw the 48 hours episode I did not know how profiler John Kelly knew the police officer McGuigan. Now I know it is because they worked together on the Molly Bish case. And until I saw the Dark Minds episode about Molly Bish, how the police officer described there being bed sheets and other stuff up on Whiskey Hill, it made me think maybe Molly Bish's body was buried instead of placed there.

Unfortunately I do not think there has ever been a case that has been solved at Websleuths for this reason(other than Doe identifications). We are not investigators and that is what makes coming to any solid conclusions so difficult.

I think the saddest part about many of these murder and missing persons cases is that eventually they are not talked about anymore because there is not much left to talk about. Hopefully some new information will be uncovered that will lead to this case getting solved.

So the Bishes actually live closer to the Elementary school in Warren, the opposite end of town and actually West Warren. Southbridge Rd. goes up towards the Sturbridge/Brimfield area. The car wash is located close to one of the few outlets of Commins Pond Rd, where Southbridge Rd and Rt 19 meet. Magi, unless going elsewhere would have turned left off Commins Pond Rd but would have been able to see the car wash from the stop sign, it's diagonal from the road. If you take a left at the end of the road they live you and go maybe a quarter of a mile you are at the base of Whiskey Hill Road. The staging area for helicopters and Life Flight in that area is a park off of North St which makes complete sense as to why John would be able to hear them.
I think the Park Commisioner is the same one Warren has now, John and Magi were well known in town as were the kids. John worked close with the highway and Park department in Warren and West Brookfield, often he would have his probation guys work with them.

 

[somequestions]

I think you have proved why it is important to actually know information and not guess about it. With what you wrote about Mr. Bish it seems like you also introduced a good set of suspects too. But like so many things in this case I cannot imagine that police did not thoroughly check everyone out. On here you guess because you do not have all the same information as police.

I do not know what to write when it comes to theories because I know they are all based on my imagination.

Here was my main theory. I thought the person that killed her would have been someone she would have seen that day. If I were a police officer and I was first on the scene, I would have first followed up on the white car lead because you have to follow up on it and it is the best clue. But as time went on I would have developed a theory. My theory would have been the following.

So Mrs. Bish drops Molly Bish off and leaves. The sand truck driver leaves and parks his truck in a lot next to the cemetery. Then he walks through the cemetery and down to the beach to kidnap Molly Bish. In my mind, this would explain why all of Molly Bish's stuff was set up when she was kidnapped. He commits the crime and then leaves the body on Whiskey Hill. This would explain why no one remembers any vehicles parked on the road because she was killed and left on Whiskey Hill within the first few hours of her abduction. Now comes a point of contention. I always thought Molly Bish's body was buried in a shallow grave on Whiskey Hill. Others on here say that her body was left above ground on Whiskey Hill and deteriorated over the next 3 years. But in my mind, if her body was buried that would explain the person having a shovel handy since a lot of dump trucks have small shovels. And that is it. That is my theory.

I know that my theory is based on absolutely no evidence, no proof, and no knowledge of who the sand truck driver is. For all I know the sand truck driver is an old man with arthritis in his back which would definitely put a major dent in my theory. The point of my theory is not to accuse the sand truck driver, but to show how on here, Websleuths, there is always going to be that tendency to want to make what you feel is the evidence fit a conclusion. Obviously I have to guess this person was looked into by police.

The sad thing is that in both Molly Bish and Holly Piirainen's case the killer may have been identified and there simply is no way to go about proving it at this time. Rodney Stanger's brother drove a white car so in terms of the best clue, that would make sense that he may have had something to do with Molly Bish's murder.

All you can do is move from theory to theory to theory because there is nothing else. Hopefully someday there is some actual evidence that can help solve these cases. I agree that it is a good thing that I am not a police officer. I have been told I look too closely at small details. ​

 

[somequestions]

So the Bishes actually live closer to the Elementary school in Warren, the opposite end of town and actually West Warren. Southbridge Rd. goes up towards the Sturbridge/Brimfield area. The car wash is located close to one of the few outlets of Commins Pond Rd, where Southbridge Rd and Rt 19 meet. Magi, unless going elsewhere would have turned left off Commins Pond Rd but would have been able to see the car wash from the stop sign, it's diagonal from the road. If you take a left at the end of the road they live you and go maybe a quarter of a mile you are at the base of Whiskey Hill Road. The staging area for helicopters and Life Flight in that area is a park off of North St which makes complete sense as to why John would be able to hear them.
I think the Park Commisioner is the same one Warren has now, John and Magi were well known in town as were the kids. John worked close with the highway and Park department in Warren and West Brookfield, often he would have his probation guys work with them.

The sad thing about Molly Bish's case is that it is an everyday case. This case could happen today under the right circumstances. I would have thought the same thing as Molly's mother Maggie if someone was staring at my child the day before they went missing.

The main reason I thought it was strange Molly Bish's stuff was set up was because of the witness on 48 hours. When she said Molly's bookbag was on the bench it made me think that Molly Bish was very careful about getting sand on her bookbag. So in my mind I see her going back and forth between the bench and where she set up her stuff. It made me wonder whether or not she was going to keep the bookbag on the bench or bring it next to her stuff? Only someone who knows how Molly Bish would set up her stuff can answer that question.

As for suspects I could make a theory for every single one of the known people associated with her case. But the really sad thing is that the kidnapper/murderer could be anyone. It could be someone who simply was on the beach that day and decided to take a lifeguard. It could be one of the cemetery workers if a shovel was used in burying Molly's body. It could be Rodney Stanger or his brother or both.......It could be anyone....And all the theories end up being nothing more than, well..........theories.

 

[somequestions]

From an online perspective, about the only clue I can come up with about Molly Bish's case has to do with the fact that both the abduction and body discovery site had hills that presumably the killer had to go up with Molly Bish.

I was curious so I looked up what type of strength it would take to lift an object that weighs 125 lbs up a hill. From what I read going up a hill actually makes the weight even more taxing on the body. The article said the main type of strength you would need would be "core" strength. From this I gathered that meant mid-section stomach and back strength. For someone who does not work out at the gym, it would require an activity that helps develop the core. One activity mentioned was lifting and moving large stones, a farmers type workout. I am not a fitness expert so excuse my terminology if I am not totally accurate.

I know none of this might be important, but it seemed like an important clue to me. A person operating on adrenaline who was not in shape could perhaps move the weight required up a hill. Unfortunately the hill part of Molly Bish's case is the only real clue I can think of.

 

[colette]

Someone could have forced Molly to walk up a hill at gunpoint.

 

[somequestions]

Someone could have forced Molly to walk up a hill at gunpoint.

A very good point that I think someone else had also alluded to on here before. I think at the abduction site, Commins Pond, that is definitely a possibility. As for the body location site, Whiskey Hill, I see that as a lot more difficult to march someone up the hill. Maybe there is some type of road that leads up the side of this Whiskey Hill where the person could park their car and then place the body? Then they would not have to do so much climbing and they would be out of view of the general motoring public. It really helps to know the location and layout.

I guess if I was a police officer I would take a mannequin weighing 125 lbs and try and lift it up the hill. That would probably make me look a little foolish. So maybe there is not that much of any clues(other than the white car) in Molly Bish's case? That is probably why it is so hard to solve.

 

[dotr]

A very good point that I think someone else had also alluded to on here before. I think at the abduction site, Commins Pond, that is definitely a possibility. As for the body location site, Whiskey Hill, I see that as a lot more difficult to march someone up the hill. Maybe there is some type of road that leads up the side of this Whiskey Hill where the person could park their car and then place the body? Then they would not have to do so much climbing and they would be out of view of the general motoring public. It really helps to know the location and layout.

I guess if I was a police officer I would take a mannequin weighing 125 lbs and try and lift it up the hill. That would probably make me look a little foolish. So maybe there is not that much of any clues(other than the white car) in Molly Bish's case? That is probably why it is so hard to solve.

Cannot find the link i had posted on a missing person thread, but it was about which directions various people would most likely take if they were being pursued by trackers or LE.
Interestingly, women were more likely to try and get away by running uphill- well this is a different situation, but it was the first thing i thought- that maybe Molly tried to get away by running up a hill, but unfortunately was caught by her pursuer.
Will post link if i find it again, meanwhile speculation, imo.

 

[somequestions]

It is hard to believe it has been over 18 years since Molly Bish's case happened. Other than the white car that seems to be anywhere and everywhere, there are not any clues. Other than wild speculation, there does not seem to be any suspects besides the ones already discussed.

The only clues that I can think of have to do with the fact that the kidnapper/killer did not kidnap Molly Bish right away at the Commins Pond beach. We know this because all of her stuff was set up. And he may have even watched her drink some water from her water bottle. And we also know that for some reason this person decided to take her body, whether alive or dead at the time, up a steep hill, where it was eventually found later. Yet both places, the kidnap site and body site, could have been frequented by a witness. A mother could have come early to the beach. A family could have been visiting a grave. A person driving may have seen someone hiking up the Whiskey Hill area since the body location was not too far from the road. A witness may have remembered a vehicle parked on the side of the road at Whiskey Hill.

The only trait I can think of is that the killer is very patient. But patience describes many professions. And whoever this person is, they do not seem to be phased by other people. It is like they feel like they belong there(the locations).

The suspect in prison in Florida who fished at Commins Pond and hunted at Whiskey Hill would fit this description, except for the crimes he is in prison for. His crimes seem rather impulsive. But I do not know how many times I have read about criminals that just commit a crime that looks like it was planned when it was impulsive. It could very well be someone who was out at Commins Pond that day(or the day before) and then decided to kidnap the lifeguard for whatever reason(the white car scenario).

Whoever the killer is, that person definitely seems very confident about places.

 

[morf13]

Molly's case has always been sad & fascinating

 

[somequestions]

I had a thought concerning Molly Bish's case. One aspect of the case I found interesting was that all of her stuff was set up on the beach. I know there are common sense reasons for this such as the stuff was just set up before the kidnapper kidnapped her and there is nothing special about it, but I am trying to think outside the box.

What if the kidnapper had kidnapped Molly Bish before she set up her stuff? I think the scenario of what happened afterwards would have been different. Even if her bags were left in the sand, wouldn't any witnesses question whether the lifeguard ever arrived at the beach in the first place?

I know you can go round and round with Molly Bish's case and that there do not seem to be any real clues other than where she was kidnapped and where her bones were found. She was kidnapped from Commins Pond and her bones were found on Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA. Some people have written that maybe her body was above ground, but I find it hard to believe a body is above ground even if covered by branches and leaves and nobody sees it for 3 years. Since I think her body was probably buried in a shallow grave, I think the killer lives in the Palmer/Ware area. There looks to be only one direct road that connects Warren, MA with the town of Ware, MA. In order to bury a body a person has to feel comfortable with the area so that is why I think where her body was found tends to hold more significance to me than where she was kidnapped from. All of this is just my opinion, and I could be completely wrong.

Geographic profiling is an inexact science and in cases where you do not have a lot of points to consider it is mostly guesswork. Is Molly Bish's case connected to that of Holly Piirainen? In terms of what I saw with the mapping, I do not think so, but that is only based on those two cases. That question really is more for a criminal profiler to consider.

As for who murdered Molly Bish, it could be just about anybody or any suspect. I think whoever the killer is that person seems to be very confident about locations.

 

[Veritas88]

Okay, so I am new to this case so I apologize if this has already been answered but how close were her bones found from Commins Pond? Was there a search party formed? Was that area where her bones were found searched?