You definitely make sense here. What's also weird is what seems to be a considerable number of losers, drug users, and even convicted child rapists in that area. From how the police have asked for tips regarding this and other cases in the area, it seems like these people might even have had a social circle amongst themselves.
MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 Jun 2000
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somequestions
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Was Molly Bish's DNA found on the mouthpiece of the water bottle she had with her that day out at Commins Pond(Tuesday, June 27, 2000)? When she went to Commin's Pond that day after picking up the water bottle at the gas station, did she keep it out of the backpack while going to Commins Pond or put it in the backpack before she left the car? Was she observed drinking out of the water bottle on the way to Commins Pond?
The only part of the lifeguard scene out at the beach that looks strange to me is the sandals and water bottle. I have thought maybe someone came up from behind her and knocked her out causing her to drop the water bottle. Then the abductor put the water bottle in the heel of the sandal so it would look right instead of tipped over like a struggle took place. Sandals or flip flops may have been loose fitting and fell off her feet. It is hard to conclude without knowing how tight the sandals were on her feet.
I only thought this because of sticks in the sand. She had not yet taken off her outer clothes for lifeguarding. The whistle and police radio were still in the backpack too. This means if she had taken off her sandals and put the water bottle in the heel of a sandal as the picture suggests, she had decided she no longer needed sandals to walk across the sand. It would be a little wierd to take them off to put them back on again in such a short period of time.
ORRRRR the sticks in the sand out at Commins Pond between where her lifeguard lawn chair was setup and her backpack on the bench were not that bad or even a concern to Molly Bish. And then my theory means nothing at all.
The only part of the lifeguard scene out at the beach that looks strange to me is the sandals and water bottle. I have thought maybe someone came up from behind her and knocked her out causing her to drop the water bottle. Then the abductor put the water bottle in the heel of the sandal so it would look right instead of tipped over like a struggle took place. Sandals or flip flops may have been loose fitting and fell off her feet. It is hard to conclude without knowing how tight the sandals were on her feet.
I only thought this because of sticks in the sand. She had not yet taken off her outer clothes for lifeguarding. The whistle and police radio were still in the backpack too. This means if she had taken off her sandals and put the water bottle in the heel of a sandal as the picture suggests, she had decided she no longer needed sandals to walk across the sand. It would be a little wierd to take them off to put them back on again in such a short period of time.
ORRRRR the sticks in the sand out at Commins Pond between where her lifeguard lawn chair was setup and her backpack on the bench were not that bad or even a concern to Molly Bish. And then my theory means nothing at all.
where did you see this picture?
no idea what is normal where you are, but these kinds of small town beaches with lifeguards and parking lots and such typically are maintained. Sand can be raked, or new sand can be brought in to refresh the beach every so often. Going barefoot on the sand is normal. putting a water bottle in the saddle keeps it from getting sandy. I assume she needed to access things in her backpack. waterbottles can be wet on the outside from sweating in the heat, and no one wants that in their backpack.
somequestions
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That is a possibility, but then the sandals probably would have been found in the parking lot. This is unless the abductor told Molly Bish to wait there while he went and placed her sandals near the lawn chair. I do not think this which is why I wonder if maybe she was made unconscious somehow?
As for the picture, I have seen so many different pictures from this case, but the one on the 48 Hours Mystery is the one I used. Is that correct? I do not know. The witness who arrived at 10:20 am the day of the abduction made it seem like both sandals were in front of the lawn chair she had set up on the beach, yet the 48 Hours picture and a side picture from a special called Unsolved about the detective trying to solve Molly Bish's case looked similar to the 48 Hours picture so maybe that picture is the correct one of the crime scene?
I remember hearing or reading somewhere that Molly Bish would continue to wear her sandals, even when she entered the water, because she did not like the slimy feel of the bottom of the pond. I agree because I do not like it either. It does feel weird when walking in a slimy substance.
One time I went to the beach and while I was walking around on the sand I got a piece of stick stuck in my foot. It hurt, but I thought about this case and remembered the picture, the area between the lawn chair and the bookbag. It is a small detail that can be explained away a thousand times. It does not prove anything. I know I am trying to extrapolate the smallest bit of information from nothing at all, but there is not much more to do with this case.
somequestions
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When Molly Bish was abducted, the main theory is she was taken up the trail behind Commins Pond to a paved path where a white car was waiting in St. Paul's Cemetery. What is sort of interesting is the size of the paved path in the cemetery is not very wide.
Investigators probably walked the paved paths leading out of St. Paul's Cemetery. Did they find any tire tracks in the grass, for example, where the vehicle may have left the paved path temporarily? Going around a corner sometimes this can happen where a tire impression forms from where the tire sinks into the ground.
I know this type of question is in hindsight from a long time ago. Maybe this is a dumb question since I know tire tracks could be left at any time by any vehicle driving through the paths in St. Paul's Cemetery, but the only ideas left are to look at in this case are small details that may or may not mean anything at all.
Investigators probably walked the paved paths leading out of St. Paul's Cemetery. Did they find any tire tracks in the grass, for example, where the vehicle may have left the paved path temporarily? Going around a corner sometimes this can happen where a tire impression forms from where the tire sinks into the ground.
I know this type of question is in hindsight from a long time ago. Maybe this is a dumb question since I know tire tracks could be left at any time by any vehicle driving through the paths in St. Paul's Cemetery, but the only ideas left are to look at in this case are small details that may or may not mean anything at all.
somequestions
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There is not much to conclude in this case concerning the evidence, but I have come to some more of my own conclusions that I think about this case. These are my opinions only.
1. When Molly Bish was abducted, she was standing and had never sat down in the lawn chair.
I think this because she was not wearing shoes and it looked like some small case was thrown on the chair. But the other reason I think this is because of the type of lawn chair. It looks like one of those old lawn chairs that has the checkered web pattern. Using a towel over the chair to sit down would be smart considering that sitting in the chair without a towel would probably leave a checkered pattern on a person's skin. It would also make it easier to identify if someone had sat in the lawn chair. I think she was standing when she was abducted and may have even heard and saw the person walking down the slope from the cemetery.
2. Molly Bish had already visited the "shed" on the property before she was abducted.
I still do not know where the "shed" people refer to is located on this property at Commins Pond. But when you look at the layout of the beach area, in order to get to the part of the pond where Molly Bish had the lawn chair and her stuff set up, you need to go across what looks like a concrete walkway because a little water inlet separates that part of the property from the other part of the property. The only way to access that side of the pond beach without going into the woods is to cross that walkway. The side where Molly Bish had her lifeguard stuff set up does not look like it has any building or shed on it. Since Molly had already taken off her sandals, I do not think she was going to walk back across the concrete walkway to go to the shed.
3. The white car had visited the Commins Pond parking lot only moments before Molly Bish and her mother arrived.
In the videos I have seen where trucks dump a load of sand it seems like it only takes a few minutes. When Mrs. Bish dropped Molly off on the day of the abduction, she stated that they watched the sand truck dumping sand to the ground. This means the truck was already in the process of dumping the load of sand by the time they arrived that day. I think the report that the sand truck driver saw a white car in the parking lot moments before Molly and her mother arrived are correct. It literally had to be only moments before, as little as a minute or two according to the general time it takes to dump a load of sand.
The last part about the timing is perhaps the most interesting part of the case. After what happened the day before between Mrs. Bish and the man in the white car, I thought he would try to arrive earlier to be outside the car and down the path to the beach. Even if there had not been a sand truck driver there on the day of the abduction, was the man in the white car really going to abduct Molly out of the Commins Pond parking lot? Maybe the original plan was to lure Molly closer to the Commins Pond parking lot before abducting her by telling her someone was hurt in the parking lot? But this would have required her to put back on her sandals. She might have even taken the two-way radio or first aid kit with her.
The questions regarding timing are interesting even if they are not important to solving the case.
1. When Molly Bish was abducted, she was standing and had never sat down in the lawn chair.
I think this because she was not wearing shoes and it looked like some small case was thrown on the chair. But the other reason I think this is because of the type of lawn chair. It looks like one of those old lawn chairs that has the checkered web pattern. Using a towel over the chair to sit down would be smart considering that sitting in the chair without a towel would probably leave a checkered pattern on a person's skin. It would also make it easier to identify if someone had sat in the lawn chair. I think she was standing when she was abducted and may have even heard and saw the person walking down the slope from the cemetery.
2. Molly Bish had already visited the "shed" on the property before she was abducted.
I still do not know where the "shed" people refer to is located on this property at Commins Pond. But when you look at the layout of the beach area, in order to get to the part of the pond where Molly Bish had the lawn chair and her stuff set up, you need to go across what looks like a concrete walkway because a little water inlet separates that part of the property from the other part of the property. The only way to access that side of the pond beach without going into the woods is to cross that walkway. The side where Molly Bish had her lifeguard stuff set up does not look like it has any building or shed on it. Since Molly had already taken off her sandals, I do not think she was going to walk back across the concrete walkway to go to the shed.
3. The white car had visited the Commins Pond parking lot only moments before Molly Bish and her mother arrived.
In the videos I have seen where trucks dump a load of sand it seems like it only takes a few minutes. When Mrs. Bish dropped Molly off on the day of the abduction, she stated that they watched the sand truck dumping sand to the ground. This means the truck was already in the process of dumping the load of sand by the time they arrived that day. I think the report that the sand truck driver saw a white car in the parking lot moments before Molly and her mother arrived are correct. It literally had to be only moments before, as little as a minute or two according to the general time it takes to dump a load of sand.
The last part about the timing is perhaps the most interesting part of the case. After what happened the day before between Mrs. Bish and the man in the white car, I thought he would try to arrive earlier to be outside the car and down the path to the beach. Even if there had not been a sand truck driver there on the day of the abduction, was the man in the white car really going to abduct Molly out of the Commins Pond parking lot? Maybe the original plan was to lure Molly closer to the Commins Pond parking lot before abducting her by telling her someone was hurt in the parking lot? But this would have required her to put back on her sandals. She might have even taken the two-way radio or first aid kit with her.
The questions regarding timing are interesting even if they are not important to solving the case.
somequestions
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Another thing I have concluded about this case is that there was never a white car at the car wash near the pond surveilling Molly Bish and her mother's car. There may have been a white car at the car wash, but it was not there to watch for the Bish's car to pass by. From a timing perspective it does not make any sense. Commins Pond is one way in and one way out according to what I saw on a map. Even if somehow the abductor missed seeing their car, going to the pond parking lot to check to see if Molly Bish had arrived would be useless as you cannot see the beach from the parking lot.
Maybe all these white car sightings on the day of Molly Bish's abduction are different people with different white cars that have nothing to do with the case at all? The white car that visited the Commins Pond parking lot on the day of abduction is different though. If that white car had nothing to do with what happened the day before, then I wonder if that person in the white car ever came forward? That person could admit they visited the Commins Pond parking lot that day by telling investigators there was a truck there delivering sand so they left. The person in the white car might have wanted to let police know about the sand truck in case they did not know about it.
How many people that owned white cars that were near Commins Pond on the day of the abduction came forward to tell their story of what they might have seen that day?
Maybe all these white car sightings on the day of Molly Bish's abduction are different people with different white cars that have nothing to do with the case at all? The white car that visited the Commins Pond parking lot on the day of abduction is different though. If that white car had nothing to do with what happened the day before, then I wonder if that person in the white car ever came forward? That person could admit they visited the Commins Pond parking lot that day by telling investigators there was a truck there delivering sand so they left. The person in the white car might have wanted to let police know about the sand truck in case they did not know about it.
How many people that owned white cars that were near Commins Pond on the day of the abduction came forward to tell their story of what they might have seen that day?
somequestions
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The person who abducted and murdered Molly Bish had impeccable timing on June 27, 2000.
If the abductor had arrived at 9:51 am to Commins Pond parking lot, the same time Molly Bish and her mother left the gas station to head over to the police station to get the two-way radio, then they probably would have been there before the sand truck driver arrived. They could have walked out on to the beach and hid in the woods until Molly Bish arrived. But the sand truck arrives first to dump the sand. Now they have a problem, a potential witness. How long is that truck going to be there?
It is the same problem they would have if they had waited until 10:15 am to arrive at Commins Pond to park and abduct Molly Bish. The sand truck would probably be gone, but by the time they get Molly Bish back to the parking lot the first parent would be entering the parking lot to go to swim lessons.
I know this is not what really happened on June 27, 2000, but the man in the white car who abducted Molly Bish had very lucky timing. The problem is that you can say that about many abductions.
If the abductor had arrived at 9:51 am to Commins Pond parking lot, the same time Molly Bish and her mother left the gas station to head over to the police station to get the two-way radio, then they probably would have been there before the sand truck driver arrived. They could have walked out on to the beach and hid in the woods until Molly Bish arrived. But the sand truck arrives first to dump the sand. Now they have a problem, a potential witness. How long is that truck going to be there?
It is the same problem they would have if they had waited until 10:15 am to arrive at Commins Pond to park and abduct Molly Bish. The sand truck would probably be gone, but by the time they get Molly Bish back to the parking lot the first parent would be entering the parking lot to go to swim lessons.
I know this is not what really happened on June 27, 2000, but the man in the white car who abducted Molly Bish had very lucky timing. The problem is that you can say that about many abductions.
They really did. It just shocks me that no one has been caught for this crime.
Crazyjster
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You make an interesting point...I am curious if anyone did come forward and that information was never released because I don't remember. I just remember the huge DNA sweep. I believe that the person in the white car was involved, and for this to go down as quick as it did, there may have been more than one person. Regardless, as someone else said it was luck...sadly.
Crazyjster
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You make an interesting point...I am curious if anyone did come forward and that information was never released because I don't remember. I just remember the huge DNA sweep. I believe that the person in the white car was involved, and for this to go down as quick as it did, there may have been more than one person. Regardless, as someone else said it was luck...sadly.
I wonder if it was two others
somequestions
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I think there are probably a lot of things we do not know about this case. I do not know if it was more than one person, but it will remain possible.
I prefer to focus on what we see out there on the beach. In the "Unresolved" episode, the detective working the case said Molly Bish got out of her mother's car, went to the shed, and was never seen again. I think this confirms she did indeed visit the shed on the property before she was abducted. I think the shed might be a small light green looking portable building that was in the parking lot right before you go past the gate to walk to the beach. This is a guess. I do not know for sure where this "shed" was on the Commins Pond beach property. What did she get out of the shed is a question I would want to know.
What was so interesting to me was all the stuff Molly Bish must have had in her hands when she stepped out onto the beach to set up that day if she only went directly to the beach after visiting the shed directly after she got out of the car. I think now we can probably also conclude that after she bought the water at the gas station she put the bottle in her bookbag. The reason is her hands had to be full.
I tried re-creating the crime scene by having that much stuff in my hands. The only real conclusion I came to was that you would have to drop everything in order to unfold the beach lawn chair. It seems awkward to try to unfold it with all that stuff in your hands. I think you would need both hands. But maybe that particular one you can unfold with one hand?
This is the scenario I have: Molly Bish arrives with her bookbag over her shoulder with the water bottle inside. She goes to the shed and grabs the first aid kit and beach chair. Is this what she got out of the shed? I don't know. All I know is that it was on the beach. She walks to the beach and puts down the chair, then the lifeguard kit, and then takes her bookbag over to the bench. I think maybe she wanted to keep sand off her bookbag by putting it on the bench. The witness who arrived at 10:20am said the bookbag was on the bench even though in photos is looks like it is under the bench on the ground.
She sets up the beach chair and first aid kit. Then she returns to the bench to grab the towel and water bottle. Again, I ran into a problem as I could not figure out how to put the towel over the lawn beach chair without putting down the water bottle on the ground or on the lifeguard kit. I thought maybe she might not want to get sand on the water bottle or sand sticking to it with the condensation. I think it was 80 degrees by the time she arrived that day at the beach. Maybe Molly Bish first grabbed the towel to put over the beach chair. Then she made another return trip to the bookbag to grab the water bottle.
After this I can only guess she stood around the beach chair drinking out of the water bottle. At some point, maybe as she was about to sit down to relax, she took off her sandals and put the water bottle in the right sandal. She must have put the water bottle in the sandal or else there would be fingerprints if someone else did. Then someone approached her faking an injury and she opened the first aid kit. This person abducted her before she was able to close the first aid kit.
The conclusion is she was abducted before she had time to put on her lifeguard whistle, make the daily two-way radio call in to the police department, or remove her outer clothing. All that remained in the bookbag.
It appears to me this person watched her set this lifeguard stuff up for at least a minute or two before approaching her. My guess is maybe they could hear the beeping from the backing up of the sand truck(if it had one of those beepers) or they could hear the truck's engine and wanted to make sure it was gone before they approached Molly Bish to try to abduct her. Or they just watched her for some reason.
The problem is when you do not know information that is true and correct and confirmed, all you can do is make guesses. I do not know if I have any more guesses to make with this case.
Lengthy article concerning new direction and training for LE.
www.masslive.com
March 8 2023 rbbm
''Heather Bish, sister of unsolved homicide victim Molly Bish, said it was “wonderful news” to hear of the new statewide initiative. Bish and her family have pushed for Molly’s case to be publicized, acting as activists for the families of missing persons.
“We found out in Molly’s abduction, and then in her loss, the law enforcement had not been trained in a missing child’s case,” Bish said. “Municipal police officers, still to this day, are not trained in how to respond to a missing person.”
Molly Bish was 16 years old when she disappeared on June 27, 2000. She was working as a lifeguard at Comins Pond in Warren, the town she lived in at the time of her disappearance. A massive search was conducted for the child, but her remains weren’t found until three years later, mere miles from the pond. Officials still do not know who is responsible for Molly’s death.
“We haven’t put our resources into these trainings, and I think that this will be a fantastic development for our law enforcement. It’s only going to make our communities safer,” Bish added. “If law enforcement is able to use the tools that they have access to, I think we’re moving in the right direction, for sure.”
The session included how to collect digital forensic data, evaluating cell phone locations and reviewing Google location history, the analysis of social media accounts and online documents in the Cloud and forensic investigations on video and mobile devices.
Officers were also given an overview on NamUs. The database is voluntary, recording missing and unidentified persons cases nationwide, and is the “most comprehensive” source for missing persons, according to the United States Department of Justice.''
More than 300 Mass. police officers take missing persons training
Police officers across Massachusetts are receiving training on how to investigate missing persons cases in a coordinated, statewide initiative from the Healey-Driscoll Administration and Massachusetts State Police.
March 8 2023 rbbm
''Heather Bish, sister of unsolved homicide victim Molly Bish, said it was “wonderful news” to hear of the new statewide initiative. Bish and her family have pushed for Molly’s case to be publicized, acting as activists for the families of missing persons.
“We found out in Molly’s abduction, and then in her loss, the law enforcement had not been trained in a missing child’s case,” Bish said. “Municipal police officers, still to this day, are not trained in how to respond to a missing person.”
Molly Bish was 16 years old when she disappeared on June 27, 2000. She was working as a lifeguard at Comins Pond in Warren, the town she lived in at the time of her disappearance. A massive search was conducted for the child, but her remains weren’t found until three years later, mere miles from the pond. Officials still do not know who is responsible for Molly’s death.
“We haven’t put our resources into these trainings, and I think that this will be a fantastic development for our law enforcement. It’s only going to make our communities safer,” Bish added. “If law enforcement is able to use the tools that they have access to, I think we’re moving in the right direction, for sure.”
The session included how to collect digital forensic data, evaluating cell phone locations and reviewing Google location history, the analysis of social media accounts and online documents in the Cloud and forensic investigations on video and mobile devices.
Officers were also given an overview on NamUs. The database is voluntary, recording missing and unidentified persons cases nationwide, and is the “most comprehensive” source for missing persons, according to the United States Department of Justice.''
imstilla.grandma
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Multiple shareholders, including families of the missing and murdered and non-profits, such as the Molly Bish Center for the Protection of Children and the Elderly, have been tireless advocates for advanced law enforcement training and the use of the latest technology,” said Mires.
“We commend this collaboration and look forward to the continued advancement of this effort.”
There were more than 300 officers who attended the March 7 training session, EOPSS said, and EOPSS Communications Director Elaine Driscoll stated there are already future plans to hold more sessions “to accommodate the level of interest.” The MPTC added it will also continue developing specialized training at its 20 police academies through a virtual learning platform, EOPSS said.
Additionally, EOPSS said a $300,000 allocation has been proposed in the governor’s fiscal 2024 budget for a Missing and Unidentified Persons Coordination Unit, which will help local police departments in the commonwealth coordinate with Massachusetts State Police when handling missing and unidentified persons cases.
www.masslive.com
“We commend this collaboration and look forward to the continued advancement of this effort.”
There were more than 300 officers who attended the March 7 training session, EOPSS said, and EOPSS Communications Director Elaine Driscoll stated there are already future plans to hold more sessions “to accommodate the level of interest.” The MPTC added it will also continue developing specialized training at its 20 police academies through a virtual learning platform, EOPSS said.
Additionally, EOPSS said a $300,000 allocation has been proposed in the governor’s fiscal 2024 budget for a Missing and Unidentified Persons Coordination Unit, which will help local police departments in the commonwealth coordinate with Massachusetts State Police when handling missing and unidentified persons cases.
More than 300 Mass. police officers take missing persons training
Police officers across Massachusetts are receiving training on how to investigate missing persons cases in a coordinated, statewide initiative from the Healey-Driscoll Administration and Massachusetts State Police.
The Bish family is calling for another agency to take over the investigation:
www.wcvb.com
"Nearly 23 years after Molly Bish disappeared while lifeguarding at a lake in Warren, Massachusetts, her sister said it's time for someone else to take over the case.
"My loyalty is to my sister. It's not to a particular agency or anything else," said sister Heather Bish.
Heather Bish said investigators with the Worcester County District Attorney's Office have made several mistakes.
"And their communication with us has been tricky over the years," she said."
More in the article, but the straw that broke the camel's back appears to be communication with the family over the status of the person of interest Sumner. The family doesn't understand why he is still considered a POI if the DNA testing that was done on his incarcerated son is not a match. The DA in the case has not been forthcoming about how he believes Sumner is tied to the case and it has frustrated the family.
I understand the family's desire for more transparency and for results, but I don't think another agency can "take over" a case due to lack of movement, since the case has to go along with which investigating agency has jurisdiction.
With no arrests, Molly Bish's family wants new lead in 23-year-long investigation
Nearly 23 years after Molly Bish disappeared while lifeguarding at a lake in Warren, Massachusetts, her sister said it's time for someone else to take over the case.
www.wcvb.com
"Nearly 23 years after Molly Bish disappeared while lifeguarding at a lake in Warren, Massachusetts, her sister said it's time for someone else to take over the case.
"My loyalty is to my sister. It's not to a particular agency or anything else," said sister Heather Bish.
Heather Bish said investigators with the Worcester County District Attorney's Office have made several mistakes.
"And their communication with us has been tricky over the years," she said."
More in the article, but the straw that broke the camel's back appears to be communication with the family over the status of the person of interest Sumner. The family doesn't understand why he is still considered a POI if the DNA testing that was done on his incarcerated son is not a match. The DA in the case has not been forthcoming about how he believes Sumner is tied to the case and it has frustrated the family.
I understand the family's desire for more transparency and for results, but I don't think another agency can "take over" a case due to lack of movement, since the case has to go along with which investigating agency has jurisdiction.
I wish they would get Anthony Gulluni to take over the case. It is ridiculous that this has not been solved yet. It is also scary the amount of sex offenders that live in that very small area. Hopefully one day soon, this will be solved.