VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #14

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nodamselindistress said:
All you have to do is look at the blood that went down his shirt(s) to know he was not dead on the lawn in a prone position for all that time. He was obviously propped up in a sitting position for awhile otherwise blood would not have dripped down his shirt, it would have gone straight to the ground.
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Was this brought out in trial through questioning - do you remember?
 
Curiousobserver said:
No medical expert can tell you definitively that he was instantly incapacitated, which also does not mean, medically, that he dropped right where he was standing/falling.
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So ignore medical testimony because no expert can tell me definitively? No expert can tell me definitely how JOK died or that he was hit by a car, but that hasn't stopped anyone from making those assertions. How do I know which testimony to ignore? Since I don't think anything was said as "definitively" happening in this trial other than it snowed, and even then, nobody can appear to agree on the amount of snow. JMO
 
nightowl1975 said:
I feel like it’s possible they are in agreement but going through all of the evidence and discussing it for a few reasons. One, they believe it’s the right thing to do. Two, sheer shock/curiosity after not being able to talk about it this whole time. Three, it’s their opportunity to look at everything first hand if they want to go on GMA or write a book or have their 15 min of fame.

Imagine if you took 12 of us that have been discussing it for months now, told us we can’t talk about it at all, and now we finally have the chance to do so? Even if all 12 of us said holy cow not guilty within minutes, we would still want to sit there and process what we had witnessed over the last 2+ months.
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Agree, but I also think they could just go to the Waterfall afterwards to debrief together! ;)

OK, maybe not the Waterfall. Maybe someone in a neighboring town.
 
A little O/T but we are all just sitting here. Hope it's OK. I finally got around to watching Anatomy of a Fall last night and some of it reminded me of this case. I won't spoil it or anything, but it's about a man who is found dead after a fall outside his home and a court case set in France. (If the movie is indicative of how the French court system works then WOW it's crazy!!!) Anyway, there were blood spatter experts and animations presented in court and all of the stuff that we might have expected here, but didn't get. I understand that may not be allowed in the US, but it was a fascinating movie, gripping and a very interesting look at how different things can be in a different legal system than here.
 
@scooperon7

Jurors have been sent back out to resume deliberations in the Karen Read murder trial in Dedham…and so begins day three…the panel of 12 has deliberated for 81/2 hours over 2 days and so far unable to reach a verdict in a trial that has lasted 2 months with 70 witnesses


First Karen sighting of the day for Read supporters brings thunderous cheers and chants outside the courthouse in Dedham moment ago and the verdict watch continues

https://twitter.com/x/status/1806331378927096169


Karen Read spending time with a young supporter as she anxiously awaits the verdict

https://twitter.com/x/status/1806334260908871927
 
Elliot_Alderson said:
So ignore medical testimony because no expert can tell me definitively? No expert can tell me definitely how JOK died or that he was hit by a car, but that hasn't stopped anyone from making those assertions. How do I know which testimony to ignore? Since I don't think anything was said as "definitively" happening in this trial other than it snowed, and even then, nobody can appear to agree on the amount of snow. JMO
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The only given is that JOK is dead. :(

And, ok, that it snowed.

JMO MOO
 
TTF14 said:
Right. And if we're going to seriously consider she did not hit him with her vehicle, but is somehow still responsible for his death, we have to believe that:

1. He jumped out of the way of her rapid, reverse (? We still doing with that?) acceleration, and somehow managed to bang up both the back and front of his head/face so badly, and his badly scratched up arm (did he hit a tree branch or something?), that he was unable to move and get himself some help, and hid himself in the process of dying.

Or

2. He didn't jump out of the way, and his injuries were a result of her beating him up. Her, the 90 pound wisp of a woman....not the drunk trained fighters inside the home he was found dead in front of.
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Yeah, I mean there are still a few people who were not convinced by the expert witnesses and are still in the guilty camp.

I am impartial going into each case. I've gone over every scenario possible where KR is possibly responsible for any part of JOK's death, and come up empty each time.
Let's disregard the fact that the Lexus had no body panel damage for a moment -
Firstly, JOK was knocked immediately unconscious from the blow to his head. This injury was so severe that it likely killed him within a short timeframe as the brain rapidly swelled.
So even if the Lexus simply knocked him backwards, striking his head on the gutter, there isn't any way he would be able to get himself up and over to the flag pole. And he certainly didn't pick up his phone and cocktail glass to take with him, and drop them neatly underneath himself as he lay down.

Secondly, like you said, that scenario doesn't account for the scratches. Curiousobserver suggested that KR may have scratched him herself.
Well, human nails are not strong enough or the right shape to make those injuries, and also KR doesn't appear to have fangs to account for the puncture wounds in arm (and the shirt).
The only way that this scenario is possible is that KR is in fact a werewolf. And to be frank, this isn't any less likely than any of the prosecution's scenarios. It's that ridiculous.

Perhaps Ms Read is guilty of driving under the influence and leaving some unpleasant voicemails, but not for murder or manslaughter.
 
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nightowl1975 said:
I feel like it’s possible they are in agreement but going through all of the evidence and discussing it for a few reasons. One, they believe it’s the right thing to do. Two, sheer shock/curiosity after not being able to talk about it this whole time. Three, it’s their opportunity to look at everything first hand if they want to go on GMA or write a book or have their 15 min of fame.

Imagine if you took 12 of us that have been discussing it for months now, told us we can’t talk about it at all, and now we finally have the chance to do so? Even if all 12 of us said holy cow not guilty within minutes, we would still want to sit there and process what we had witnessed over the last 2+ months.
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I've heard of cases where some jurors were annoying that the foreperson forced them to go through every bit of evidence before even doing any kind of straw poll and they felt it was a huge waste of time because they all agreed on the verdict at the end. Wish I could remember what case this was but it was high profile because some of the jurors did interviews after.
 
jepop said:
Only JMc testified to the "I hit him" and she is not credible, ie proven she lied about seeing KR's lexus at 12.45am. I hope the jury decides that JMc simply cannot be trusted and that she was likely invested in pinning JO's death on KR to the point of perjury. Jmo
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AJ should have brought this up .
 
hooziewhutz said:
Very astute observation. I lived there for 4 years (2 in Boston area, 2 in Western Mass). People would NOT let me in, it was awful and lonely. I moved to Western MA thinking they would be more open. Nope. Ironically enough, I was often accused of being a "spy" or cop because I was friendly and asked questions to get to know people. It was excruciating, and really put a strain (understatement) on my mental health. I ended up blindly moving to the Midwest specifically for their reputation of kindness. It worked. I can 100% understand the apparent disdain for KR, regardless of personality or whatever, simply from being from another town*. Its pathetic.

*Doesn't apply exclusively to out-of-staters.
IMO
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I think the distain for KR by the community and now manifested by judge goes back to her moving into the home and becoming the caregiver for the children. It has been mentioned her own family was not happy with the arrangement and I have to think the O'Keefes were not either...but JO was the one that stepped up and took the 2 children. It was also mentioned some of their arguments were that KR thought his family should help more. They did not like her at all for a very long time...it was a natural reaction to to not question any more when LE said it was KR.
 
Spectrix said:
Yeah, I mean there are still a few people who were not convinced by the expert witnesses and are still in the guilty camp.

I am impartial going into each case. I've gone over every scenario possible where KR is possibly responsible for any part of JOK's death, and come up empty each time.
Firstly, JOK was knocked immediately unconscious from the blow to his head. So even if the Lexus simply knocked him backwards sticking his head on the gutter, there isn't any way he would be able to get himself up and over to the flag pole. Secondly, like you said, that scenario doesn't account for the scratches. Curiousobserver suggested that KR may have scratched him herself.
Well, human nails are not strong enough or the right shape to make those injuries, and also KR doesn't appear to have fangs to account for the puncture wounds in arm (and the shirt).
The only way that this scenario is possible is that KR is in fact a werewolf. And to be frank, this isn't any less likely than any of the prosecution's scenarios. It's that ridiculous.

Perhaps Ms Read is guilty of driving under the influence and leaving some unpleasant voicemails, but not for murder or manslaughter.
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BBM.

I'd appreciate some kudos for the enormous amount of restraint it's taking me to refrain from a snarky comment here. :)

I agree with all of this....it IS that ridiculous, if you believe the experts, which I do. And by experts, I definitely do not mean Trooper Paul, poor guy.

Guilty of DUI, yes....like the whole lot of them except for the underage drinkers. Unpleasant voicemails, also check. Everyone who has ever been in a toxic relationship understands the dynamic. Doesn't make her a killer.

IMO MOO
 
I'm guessing there is at least one holdout that just can't believe the CW and its police force would be 'corrupt'. I'm a back the blue and have many LEO in my family.. but this case... NO FREAKING WAY do i believe the CW OR the prosecutions witnesses. They are as dirty as they come. IF and a HUGE IF she backed into him, i think he still went in the house and it wasn't a devastating hit. EVERYONE was drunk that night... Going for MURDER was a ridiculous move.
 
TTF14 said:
Was this brought out in trial through questioning - do you remember?
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WAs just going to ask that. Cannot remember if defense managed to raise it or not when the people who analysed the state of his clothing were up. Possibly it was ignored in the CW's case and subsequently defense were unable to get it in? Could be yet another eg of defense needing their own expert in that area to prove how wide the sub par investigation was or what evidence was witheld from on cw's side? Perhaps by that point they simply didn't have the resources and had to pick and choose between a blood on clothing expert and DR Russell or Dr Sheridan. All speculation
 
nightowl1975 said:
I feel like it’s possible they are in agreement but going through all of the evidence and discussing it for a few reasons. One, they believe it’s the right thing to do. Two, sheer shock/curiosity after not being able to talk about it this whole time. Three, it’s their opportunity to look at everything first hand if they want to go on GMA or write a book or have their 15 min of fame.

Imagine if you took 12 of us that have been discussing it for months now, told us we can’t talk about it at all, and now we finally have the chance to do so? Even if all 12 of us said holy cow not guilty within minutes, we would still want to sit there and process what we had witnessed over the last 2+ months.
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Personally, I would want to send a NG verdict as quickly as possible to send a message about the investigation and get out of there. Clearly, others would choose differently.
The polling on the YT streaming sites show 80-85% believe NG with 40-50k voting. I think that is pretty representative. Clearly there are strong feelings on both sides though and the longer they are out, the more likely it will be hung instead of NG. IMO, there is no chance of a guilty verdict. I still believe it will be NG. All IMO.
 
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