VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #15

[OldCop]

Causes of skull fracture include the following:

• “being hit with an object such as a baseball bat, hammer, or rock
• falling and hitting the ground
• injuring the head in a vehicle accident
• injuring the head in a motorcycle accident
• being struck by a vehicle or train as a pedestrian or cyclist
• being physically assaulted or abused
• sustaining a sports injury”

Skull Fractures: Types, Causes, and Symptoms

There are many types of skull fractures, but only one major cause. Get the facts on fractures and learn about diagnosis and treatment.

www.healthline.com

I’m a little late to the thread here, but are some arguing that the arm injury was fatal? And not the skull fracture?

No, I think pretty much everyone agrees that the skull fracture was the lethal injury that caused his death. If one was hit by a vehicle or train, you would have other injuries to the body in addition to the skull fracture.

 

[kittythehare]

Thanks for your reply and I hope not too.


The victim had a skull fracture which is much more likely to have incapacitated him than a dog bite (if he in fact had a dog bite) The fact that he had two black eyes sounds like he had the more serious type of skull fracture- basilar.

“Raccoon eyes is most often caused by a basal skull fracture (BSF). The basal part of your skull is the bottom portion where the brain rests. When a fracture occurs, symptoms such as raccoon eyes may follow. BSF can occur from car accidents, falls, sports injuries, and other sources of head trauma.”

Raccoon Eyes: Basilar Skull Fracture and Treatment

www.healthline.com

here's the actual expert testimony

 

[IDK]

No, I think pretty much everyone agrees that the skull fracture was the lethal injury that caused his death. If one was hit by a vehicle or train, you would have other injuries to the body in addition to the skull fracture.

Thanks.

 

[fcavanaugh]

IMO the state didn't prove their case BARD and I expected to see a fairly quick NG verdict handed down by the jury. Color me surprised. Don’t know what will happen Monday, my guess is still hung jury but we’ll see.

Personally, I have been on the fence in this case and thought it a strong possibility KR did hit and kill JO with her vehicle, but what’s tipping me over the edge is the independent analysis testimony at trial that JO’s injuries/death weren’t caused by vehicle hit.

Having said that, a couple things I personally struggle with if JO was injured and killed at the Albert residence:

1.) if something happened at the residence that accidentally caused JO’s injuries/death, why wasn’t an ambulance called?

2.) If someone at the residence intentionally killed JO, what on earth was the motive?

As to #1 above, for example, if the dog attacked JO and he fell and hit his head hard on something and/or someone swung something to stop the dog and ended up hitting JO in the head, OR if he fell off something in the basement hit his head hard on the floor, I think most people would have called an ambulance in any of these situations. So I don’t think any of these things happened to JO that night, or at least it’s way down my list of possibilities.

As to #2 above, if is the case, I don’t know if we’ll ever know exactly who, as in, which person(s) at the residence that night was responsible for JO’s death. And there’s always a motive in murder, but I definitely don’t think it was result of KR flirting with/leading some other dude on (BH). One motive I could see is if the young man CA killed JO and everyone is lying/covering up for him in order to save him from ruining his life at such a young age/save him from going to prison.
If it was someone else at the residence that night responsible for killing JO (BA, BH, Chloe the dog?) I have more trouble coming up with motive. In either case, for so many people to be involved in a conspiracy/cover up of this magnitude is a bit of a stretch/hard for me to believe they could pull it off for so long without someone talking/spilling the beans, so to speak. But they do seem to be a tight group so making a pact and everyone sticking with it/no one messing up for over 2 years, Hmmmm I guess possible.

Other things that I struggle with,
this was a cop’s home with other cops present and they chose to put a dead man out on the front lawn?? How did they know they wouldn’t be seen by a passerby or a neighbor or that the neighbors didn’t have cameras??
I think cops would have thought about/been more aware of these things than the average person. But I guess if their goal was to frame KR, they had no other choice but to put his body out there because they knew that’s the last place KR was with John and just took their chances they wouldn’t be seen carrying/dragging a dead body out to the front yard?? Maybe they knew for certain neighbors didn’t have cameras? Idk.

So what’s left if you don’t believe KR hit JO with her vehicle killing him, and struggle with the big lie/conspiracy? I realize the conspiracy is the prevailing theory by members here on the thread and elsewhere. It does seem like the logical conclusion if you believe KR is innocent and that JO made it inside the house and don’t believe in coincidences (butt dials, deleting messages, destroying getting rid of phones etc). I normally do not believe in coincidences in murder but this is one case where it’s really bothering me about this being such a huge conspiracy by so many people. Anyway, back to my question about what’s left, what about the theory if after KR dropped JO off, he was attacked outside by some unknown person and/or animal, and fell and hit his head on the ground and/or person hit him hard in the head with something and he passed away outside, and no one realized what happened until KR came to so to speak, and started wondering where he was and went looking for him. And possible plow driver (Lucky) just didn’t see him? Is this far-fetched probably but with no cameras around, does anyone think something like this is a possibility?
I forget if KR said she watched him go inside the house? Either way, she could’ve lied and said she watched him go inside if she thought she was being framed for something she didn’t do. I think the steps on JO’s phone don’t prove he went into the house. If he was attacked outside he could’ve been holding his phone and moving around trying to fight off attacker/animal. Or had it in his pocket (my iPhone counts steps when I hold it or if it’s inside my pocket while I’m moving around cleaning, walking the neighborhood etc.) and phone fell out of pocket at some point during a struggle. The I hit him/did I hit him isn’t strong evidence to me. Due to inebriated state that night, I think possibly KR was having memory issues/possibly blacked out and thought she might have hit him, or was possibly led to believe she did by JM in the conspiracy theory.

One last thing, I am a strong supporter of LE, a few in my family work in LE but I have to say in this case, the investigation for sure was careless and unprofessional with certain procedures and protocols not followed. Inexcusable and imo compromised the case from the jump. As for Trooper Proctor, totally incompetent, unethical, lacking in character and integrity. A total disgrace to his profession and to decent/good cops (imo majority are good) everywhere.

I’ve missed some posts so apologies if some of this has already been discussed. Just wanted to offer some of my thoughts after following the case and the trial.

JO didn’t deserve to die and I hope that ultimately, he receives the justice he rightfully deserves.


All of the above IMHOO

 

[IDK]

here's the actual expert testimony

Thanks for posting and will try to watch later. A little limited on time today so reading recaps.

 

[JenaTaoson]

I was thinking today about those arm injuries on JOK. Was he wearing a hoodie? I think he was... so in either case, scratch marks and bite marks by a dog OR being struck by a vehicle, in which case would it be more plausible that marks appeared and no bruising?
ETA I'm just curious how tail light shards could produce that damage through a hoodie?

 

[MyJoey]

Watch Joseph Paul too

That’s what I was talking about watching….brutal.

 

[Wishbone]

Thanks for your reply and I hope not too.


The victim had a skull fracture which is much more likely to have incapacitated him than a dog bite (if he in fact had a dog bite) The fact that he had two black eyes sounds like he had the more serious type of skull fracture- basilar.

“Raccoon eyes is most often caused by a basal skull fracture (BSF). The basal part of your skull is the bottom portion where the brain rests. When a fracture occurs, symptoms such as raccoon eyes may follow. BSF can occur from car accidents, falls, sports injuries, and other sources of head trauma.”

Raccoon Eyes: Basilar Skull Fracture and Treatment

www.healthline.com

Cut on right eyelid and also on nose as well

 

[Spectrix]

Did the CW explain how JOK was hit at high speed by a 7000 pound SUV so hard that he was projected 30 feet through the air, and didn't get so much as a bruise?

I read that the victim did have fractures— a fractured skull:

Yes, he did have a fractured skull, though what you would normally see with that, in the case of a motor vehicle pedestrian collision, is a neck/spinal injury along with the head trauma. This is due the the forces involved on either the body or the head, or both.

The prosecution allege that JOK was hit by a vehicle travelling 24MPH, and the main point of contact is the tail light.
Firstly, the tail light is not the first point of contact, the bumper is. One might expect bruising and most probably fractures of the knee and/or fima.
The tail light part is next - this is in line with his pelvis. One might expect pelvis or hip fractures and a lot of bruising. After that is the upper body. One might expect bruising and broken ribs for instance.

Lets ignore that for a moment, somehow his body is okay, but he is sent flying. In this scenario, what happens to his head? His body suddenly accelerates and his head is stationary, its attached to his body by his neck. In this scenario he sustains a neck injury.

Ignoring that, the prosecution allege that he's thrown 30 feet after impact, so lets say he falls backwards and strikes his head on the gutter. His body is moving quickly and his head suddenly stops. In this scenario he sustains a neck injury.

Lets say for a moment that for some reason, JOK has stumbled or knelt down for instance after dropping his phone.
His head is hit by the tail light. His head rapidly accelerates but his body is still stationary. In this scenario he sustains a neck injury.

See the pattern?

Lets consider for instance, one of the scenarios suggested by the defence, where he is struck on the back of a head by a blunt object such as a baseball bat. The medical examiner herself admitted that the head injury would be consistent with this.

It's a hard hit, enough to break his skull, but it doesn't force his whole body or head to accelerate in the same mannor that a motor vehicle collision would. In this scenario he does not necessarily sustain injuries to his neck or any other part of his body.

Sure, it's all hypothetical and certainly some unexplained things sometimes happen.

But whatever happened, it had to have happened within the laws of physics.
One cannot physically operate outside of those laws (even if one doesn't understand them - I'm looking at you, Trooper Paul).

.

 

[turaj]

I think it wasn’t so much of continuing the party there but, didn’t she say she was hungry and wanted to get something to eat? She had been drinking for several hours and probably realized she needed to get something into her stomach.

i got the impression that ending the evening at D and E was pretty common but due to their low carb diet it was a no go. Too bad they did not do that ....might have sobered up some of the group and they would have just gone home.

 

[MyJoey]

Revisiting the defense closing argument. Karen's car BEFORE and then AFTER it was in Canton PD custody
View attachment 514280

View attachment 514281

Canton PD is like whatever who is gonna notice the difference

LOLOLOL

Right away I think it’s funny he said she backed out and hit John’s SUV when Wolfe said it’s impossible. Plus the pictures they are using are reflecting and not clear.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

In regards to the trial. IMO opinion it doesn't matter if she KR actually hit him or not. What matters is if the prosecution proved that she did. Of everything I have read and watched, they did not sufficiently prove that she hit him. There is much reasonable doubt here. I would think a D.A. would want his case so air tight as to not leave room for doubt. It doesn't seem like this was the case. If I was on this jury my verdict would be not guilty of all charges.

In regards to what may have happened. I believe it was a fight that got completely out of hand with the dog protecting it's owners. Whether it was a beef with CA or BH is unknown, but I would lay odds on BH over CA. BH and KR were texting, and BH was trying to get with KR.

Edited by me for some typos. And there are probably more. I am a horrid typist on my phone lol

 

[MyJoey]

Please report back, it's actually very simple math.

Are you talking about John Paul’s testimony. Cause this is seriously hard to watch again, can’t take it all at once.

 

[IDK]

Yes, he did have a fractured skull, though what you would normally see with that, in the case of a motor vehicle pedestrian collision, is a neck/spinal injury along with the head trauma. This is due the the forces involved on either the body or the head, or both.

The prosecution allege that JOK was hit by a vehicle travelling 24MPH, and the main point of contact is the tail light.
Firstly, the tail light is not the first point of contact, the bumper is. One might expect bruising and most probably fractures of the knee and/or fima.
The tail light part is next - this is in line with his pelvis. One might expect pelvis or hip fractures and a lot of bruising. After that is the upper body. One might expect bruising and broken ribs for instance.

Lets ignore that for a moment, somehow his body is okay, but he is sent flying. In this scenario, what happens to his head? His body suddenly accelerates and his head is stationary, its attached to his body by his neck. In this scenario he sustains a neck injury.

Ignoring that, the prosecution allege that he's thrown 30 feet after impact, so lets say he falls backwards and strikes his head on the gutter. His body is moving quickly and his head suddenly stops. In this scenario he sustains a neck injury.

Lets say for a moment that for some reason, JOK has stumbled or knelt down for instance after dropping his phone.
His head is hit by the tail light. His head rapidly accelerates but his body is still stationary. In this scenario he sustains a neck injury.

See the pattern?

Lets consider for instance, one of the scenarios suggested by the defence, where he is struck on the back of a head by a blunt object such as a baseball bat. The medical examiner herself admitted that the head injury would be consistent with this.

It's a hard hit, enough to break his skull, but it doesn't force is whole body or head to accelerate in the same way a motor vehicle collision would. In this scenario he does not necessarily sustain injuries to his neck or any other part of his body.

Makes sense— I’m going to try and find the autopsy report. All I’ve found are bits and pieces in articles. The ME testimony was posted upthread, so I plan to watch that too. Thanks!

Edited to add: are people alleging a dog attack, a beating or both? Just curious.

 

[Spectrix]

Please report back, it's actually very simple math.

Are you talking about John Paul’s testimony. Cause this is seriously hard to watch again, can’t take it all at once.

Gosh yeah, I mean, be reasonable. Forcing someone to watch that a second time is inhumane.

.

 

[Spectrix]

Makes sense— I’m going to try and find the autopsy report. All I’ve found are bits and pieces in articles. The ME testimony was posted upthread, so I plan to watch that too. Thanks!

I would suggest this - DEFENSE WITNESS #4) Dr. Frank Sheridan, Forensic Pathologist
He speaks in far more detail than the ME. He is a brilliant witness in this case.

He is very clear and thorough, and uses easy to understand terminology.

In the following video he is first up, starting around 9m 30 seconds

Edited to add: are people alleging a dog attack, a beating or both? Just curious.

Probably both. The arm injuries could have been entirely separate, or they could be related, for instance he became involved in an altercation with someone else at the premises, and the dog got involved too.

 

[Odeto BJ]

I was thinking today about those arm injuries on JOK. Was he wearing a hoodie? I think he was... so in either case, scratch marks

The cuts on his arm have points of initiation, penetration and distance, some as long as 4 inches. They are also spread over about an 18 inch distance from under the bicep to well down his forearm. The outerwear we have seen does not show anything like multiple 4" slashes and does show a series of punctures.
The taillight complete is about 7 inches tall and 9 inches perimeter; it rides about 39 inches above the ground. As it was affixed to the car, there was nothing around it and no damages that would correspond with the spread of injuries. The lens was reassembled with about 15 pieces of tape, which included the back up light portion. See photos in post by Themonk above.
The fundamental questions: how does a polycarbonate lens of that size affixed to a moving car, get shattered to the extent indicated and create 4 inch long cuts on a man's arm that are perpendicular to the spread distance of 18 inches? And how does that happen without shredding cuts in the outerwear? All without bruising the arm for at least the entirety of the spread distance...
Yet this is what the CW is asserting as the COD mechanism. Note that there are tiny pieces of PC missing from the reassembly: If the impact happened according to the CW reconstruction I would anticipate there would be slivers of PC embedded in the arm and in the wounds...and at least some of them would have been removed at the hospital. Meantime, when forensics reassembled the lens with the evidence collected at the scene, they had substantial pieces left over....BARD.
All MOO and without benefit of a PHD.

 

[geevee]

Are you talking about John Paul’s testimony. Cause this is seriously hard to watch again, can’t take it all at once.

I think you can limit it to just the key cycle testimony, if you can tolerate it even that long. lol

 

[turaj]

I wonder how things are in Canton this weekend? More scuffles at the local watering holes? Still curious how many jurors are actually living in Canton vs some surrounding towns.

 

[Odeto BJ]

I wonder how things are in Canton this weekend? More scuffles at the local watering holes? Still curious how many jurors are actually living in Canton vs some surrounding towns.

This weekend one thing. Presuming there is some movement on the jury deadlock (either hung or a verdict) this coming Thursday through Sunday will be a whole nother experience for those folks in Canton. MOO
We can all anticipate another round of local dissension and polarization when the FBI report becomes available, presuming it ever does. In terms of Canton and its local politics and public services: It will be a long time before the fat lady sings.
MOO again.