VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #15

[jepop]

I don't think it's pointless.

It's obvious that the defense doesn't have the burden of proof and they don't even have to call any witness's.

But they did in this case. JMO.

I misinterpreted your post as splitting hairs over definition of burden of proof in that case, so apologies for that. Yes, I think it is clear to most an an active defense was offered in this case by bringing witnesses to prove the cw's case wrong BARD. It was a good move imo owing to proctor and his planting inclinations. JMO

 

[Fantastic]

Just wondering if a quick poll would be possible, or allowable at this point. It'd give an snapshot of Websleuths members feelings on the case, just before the actual verdict. I thought the following choices would be appropriate:

1. I believe Read is innocent, and will be found innocent (not guilty).
2. I believe Read is guilty, and will be found guilty.
3. I believe Read is guilty, but will be found innocent (not guilty).
4. I believe Read is innocent, but will be found guilty.

If not allowed, or considered appropriate, please delete, and accept my apologies.
Best regards.

 

[CourtandSims4]

Forget Karen and the CW witnesses for a second.
The only people I truly believed and sense were truly unbiased were the fbi experts / far smarter in their field than the CW’s Trooper Paul and his book report.
You look at the autopsy photos, listen to all experts, and you see and know without a doubt the injuries are not consistent with being hit fo a car.
Then you pray for Justice.
JMO

Yes but they really just told the jury that the way that the incompetent Trooper reconstructionist said it happened, and the ways that we tested for, didn't happen. That leaves other possibilities. I mean, it doesn't matter at this point because the investigation was shoddy. They don't deserve a conviction. But in terms of if Karen actually did it, I believe she did. Because of her words and actions. Words I can confirm, words people said she said. And other details that I don't feel like listing. (Like, if you think the CW didn't properly test John's shirt for canine DNA, why not get the whole shirt independently tested?)

The fact that she has never looked scared going to court, until the end of last week when the jury didn't come back quickly, was really something to witness. I didn't know she could actually look scared until then. I mean, a top down conspiracy, from the DA all the way to the judge presiding over her case, but never a hint of worry. Laughs. Smiles. Smirks. She has never looked scared because she knows there is no conspiracy.

Innocent people who are framed never look at ease because they know if they can get arrested, charged, indicted and go to trial while innocent, they can certainly be convicted while innocent. People keep saying people are being unreasonable when her demeanor is criticized, but you can tell a lot by someone's demeanor. Which is why many people hang on every word of reporters who report which jurors "look" to be pro-Karen.

IMHO

 

[CourtandSims4]

The point is the defense did not have to prove anything...(I'm sure you already knew that!)

I do know that. I also know that you kind of have to prove it if you want the jury to consider it. Anyone can tell a story.

 

[Warwick7]

Unfortunately, I will not be able to follow the situation anywhere near as closely next week. I just hope that on Monday, we will somehow be able to get a Not Guilty verdict.

I'm not afraid anymore that KR might be found guilty.....that seems out of the question at this point. I am afraid, however, that she may have to endure this whole trial all over again.

On the other hand a hung jury may benefit Jackson, because prosecutors must prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, a hung jury might prompt a prosecutor to reevaluate their case based on what they have seen of the Lally's hand. I think a second go around would bring in the FBI heavy and strong.

 

[Aquarian]

On the other hand a hung jury may benefit Jackson, because prosecutors must prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, a hung jury might prompt a prosecutor to reevaluate their case based on what they have seen of the Lally's hand. I think a second go around would bring in the FBI heavy and strong.

Question ;
When exactly did the FBI launch their investigation? Did it happen to occur after AJ joined the team?

 

[MyJoey]

Question ;
When exactly did the FBI launch their investigation? Did it happen to occur after AJ joined the team?

Karen Read timeline: What court docs, attorney statements reveal about the federal probe into her case

Court documents and attorneys’ comments reveal further information about the federal inquiry into Karen Read’s case.

www.boston.com

I’m looking for more info.

 

[jepop]

Thanks @OldCop for summing things up in a plain and simple fashion. Because this is truly the essence. Nobody knows on these threads for sure what happened.
We all have our theories but they are just that. Speculation.
It was the CE’s only job at trial to prove KR’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that never happened.
I came away with only reasonable doubt. That was my ONLY conclusion. An ABUNDANCE of Reasonable Doubt.
Beyond that? Who knows what led to John’s death.

Did he have a random slip and fall accident and then get chewed on by an animal?
Did Higgins whack him with his plow ? Throw him into his car and then drop him off later ( he had a ford edge too)
Did he get suckered punched by the “he who shall not be named kid” who no one mentioned was even in the house for at least 6 months, in the yard as one was coming and one was going?
Did he make it inside the Albert house and get in a physical fight
Etc etc - lots of options and opinions
Including KR hitting him with her car.

Unless more comes to light I do not believe we will ever know what happened here due to so many unforced errors by LE. You hate to see it. But it unfolded like a nightmare before our eyes in that trial.
Sad for the victim. And just embarrassing for the CW.
This was definitely a case that should never have gone to trial.
No matter what verdict gets handed down, this is a big ole black eye for the CW. A wound that will fester for a long time to come - at least until different leadership takes over the DA’s office.
As my Dad told me - the fish rots from the head down.

JMO.

RBBM Great post. Just two things and totally Imoo. Given the lack of bruising on JO's body, the location of his body and the location of the head wound (lower back of head) I'm interested in how you believe that JO could nonetheless still have been killed because of being hit by KR's lexus or any other vehicle in motion at the time (I agree there's an option there for him to have fallen backwards onto a stationary snow plow either before or after receiving the highly probable dog wounds to right arm). What do you see as the remote possibilities? JO could've been gently knocked by the vehicle on his wrist where the small bruise was found, then he wandered around the lawn drunk and fell where he was found. Except that the head injury remains unexplained. And if he was gently knocked in the area where the small bruise is and then went on to receive head wound in some other manner, that means that the vehicle knock would not be responsible for his death. I'm genuinely interested in what possibilities you see. Jmo

My second point is I totally agree that the cw failed to prove their case BARD and not only that, the defense brought what passes as objective expert evidence into trial, evidence that the cw was unable to effectively counter. As such the only just outcome imo is aquittal. If the jury was to come back with guilty then the verdict imo will have been founded in some way but not by applying reason to evidence, a duty jurys are charged to take with the utmost seriousness. Jmo

 

[OldCop]

Thanks @OldCop for summing things up in a plain and simple fashion. Because this is truly the essence. Nobody knows on these threads for sure what happened.
We all have our theories but they are just that. Speculation.
It was the CE’s only job at trial to prove KR’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that never happened.
I came away with only reasonable doubt. That was my ONLY conclusion. An ABUNDANCE of Reasonable Doubt.
Beyond that? Who knows what led to John’s death.

Did he have a random slip and fall accident and then get chewed on by an animal?
Did Higgins whack him with his plow ? Throw him into his car and then drop him off later ( he had a ford edge too)
Did he get suckered punched by the “he who shall not be named kid” who no one mentioned was even in the house for at least 6 months, in the yard as one was coming and one was going?
Did he make it inside the Albert house and get in a physical fight
Etc etc - lots of options and opinions
Including KR hitting him with her car.

Unless more comes to light I do not believe we will ever know what happened here due to so many unforced errors by LE. You hate to see it. But it unfolded like a nightmare before our eyes in that trial.
Sad for the victim. And just embarrassing for the CW.
This was definitely a case that should never have gone to trial.
No matter what verdict gets handed down, this is a big ole black eye for the CW. A wound that will fester for a long time to come - at least until different leadership takes over the DA’s office.
As my Dad told me - the fish rots from the head down.

JMO.

Excellent post, @waldojabba.

 

[MyJoey]

Question ;
When exactly did the FBI launch their investigation? Did it happen to occur after AJ joined the team?

Status of federal involvement in Karen Read case remains confidential

Acting United States Attorney for the District of Massachusetts Josh Levy declined to provide the status of his office’s involvement in the high-profile Karen Read murder case when asked by 25 Investigates Reporter Ted Daniel Wednesday.

www.boston25news.com

 

[Aquarian]

Status of federal involvement in Karen Read case remains confidential

Acting United States Attorney for the District of Massachusetts Josh Levy declined to provide the status of his office’s involvement in the high-profile Karen Read murder case when asked by 25 Investigates Reporter Ted Daniel Wednesday.

www.boston25news.com

Wow! A lot of back story I e never heard before. Doesn’t seem like the cliff hanger or smoking gun that has been advertised , imo soley.

 

[TIGER0822]

Same! He changed so many facts during closing from what he presented as testimony during the trial and that’s unforgivable. Especially when there is no transcript for the jury to look back on, which he knew would be the case. Two of the bigger ones were the time she allegedly hit him and when she was seen outside 34 Fairview, which in his opening was 1245 but that was debunked by her arriving back to JOK home at 1236, and the other huge one was him saying the only DNA found on JOK clothing was his own and that’s simply not true. The testimony indicated 2 others’ DNA found. There were a multitude of other things he changed too.

 

[TIGER0822]

Karen Read timeline: What court docs, attorney statements reveal about the federal probe into her case

Court documents and attorneys’ comments reveal further information about the federal inquiry into Karen Read’s case.

www.boston.com

I’m looking for more info.

I can not find a clear answer. There appears to be a lot of internal politics (and personal vandetta's) involved. My best understanding is that former DA Michael Morrissey requested it.

In December 2023, 25 Investigates learned of letters Norfolk County District Attorney Michael Morrissey sent to the Department of Justice requesting that the federal probe be transferred out of Massachusetts based on conflict-of-interest claims.

 

[TIGER0822]

dbm

 

[TIGER0822]

Should start a list. Did Lally he say that KR drove back to FV at around 3am (3.30am)?? Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Aquarian]

Should start a list. Did Lally he say that KR drove back to FV at around 3am (3.30am)?? Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

I thought it was a bit later , but no exact time that I recall. Will need research .

 

[waldojabba]

RBBM Great post. Just two things and totally Imoo. Given the lack of bruising on JO's body, the location of his body and the location of the head wound (lower back of head) I'm interested in how you believe that JO could nonetheless still have been killed because of being hit by KR's lexus or any other vehicle in motion at the time (I agree there's an option there for him to have fallen backwards onto a stationary snow plow either before or after receiving the highly probable dog wounds to right arm). What do you see as the remote possibilities? JO could've been gently knocked by the vehicle on his wrist where the small bruise was found, then he wandered around the lawn drunk and fell where he was found. Except that the head injury remains unexplained. And if he was gently knocked in the area where the small bruise is and then went on to receive head wound in some other manner, that means that the vehicle knock would not be responsible for his death. I'm genuinely interested in what possibilities you see. Jmo

My second point is I totally agree that the cw failed to prove their case BARD and not only that, the defense brought what passes as objective expert evidence into trial, evidence that the cw was unable to effectively counter. As such the only just outcome imo is aquittal. If the jury was to come back with guilty then the verdict imo will have been founded in some way but not by applying reason to evidence, a duty jurys are charged to take with the utmost seriousness. Jmo

“Options and opinions”
I was not clear here. I was trying to say that there are lots of reasons thrown out here how JO ended up with those injuries/ was found dead.
I don’t believe for a second, having watched and listened to all the testimony and viewed those autopsy photos, that JOK was hit by KR’s car. I have been extremely vocal about that throughout these threads. But others do.
I came to the case under the impression from casually following msm locally, that a drunk woman ran over her cop boyfriend. I was merely stopping by this thread for a quick look at what others thought.
When I saw the autopsy photos I was totally taken aback.
It was then that I knew that what was beung put forth by the CW and what actually happened were two different things.
But that’s Jmo.

 

[jepop]

“Options and opinions”
I was not clear here. I was trying to say that there are lots of reasons thrown out here how JO ended up with those injuries/ was found dead.
I don’t believe for a second, having watched and listened to all the testimony and viewed those autopsy photos, that JOK was hit by KR’s car. I have been extremely vocal about that throughout these threads. But others do.
I came to the case under the impression from casually following msm locally, that a drunk woman ran over her cop boyfriend. I was merely stopping by this thread for a quick look at what others thought.
When I saw the autopsy photos I was totally taken aback.
It was then that I knew that what was beung put forth by the CW and what actually happened were two different things.
But that’s Jmo.

No worries. Yeah I did think you were saying it was one of your options. I think because of the wording just before your list of options:
"I came away with only reasonable doubt. That was my ONLY conclusion. An ABUNDANCE of Reasonable Doubt.
Beyond that? Who knows what led to John’s death."

Then your list of options which included KR and vehicle.

Believe me, I was surprised as I remembered your prior posts! So was curious to understand your reasoning. Like you, I've come away believing that KR did not hit and kill JO with her car. Thanks for clarifying.

ETA maybe just to be a little clearer as this case can so totally confuse! I agree with you: there is boat loads of reasonable doubt and coming away from trial, absolutely: Who knows what lead to JO's death. The trial evidence hasn't shown us JO's manner of death but has raised a number of possibilities and there may be more.Jmo. But with the caveat for me personally (and I think you are saying also for you) that it could not have been caused through KR hitting him with her vehicle, JMO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I personally found her credible and like you completely understand where she was coming from. She seemed hostile and angry at times which is absolutely understandable and I don't blame her considering how much harassment her family including children and JO's family have been subjected too. It's sickening watching the pro Karen supporters outside the courthouse! All IMO of course.

What is sickening about people who peacefully assemble in support of someone who they believe to be guilty? They aren't protesting against the O"Keefe's. They are protesting for justice. moo

 

[jepop]

Yes it clearly did.

It made it appear the passenger side of the car was the driver side. Crucially important when the police were testifying they never went near the passenger taillight. Yet you can see them doing just that, although the jury wouldn't have realized it if Alan Jackson hadn't pointed it out.

Yes. It was at a minimum misleading when exhibited on direct with no comment. Also, and sure this has already been noted a number of times, the time/clock on the video was not inverted which shows deliberate inversion of the footage itself and then the application of a non-inverted clock. All Jmo.

The presentation of this evidence by the cw was dodgy as,,.IMO. Fortunately defense was onto it immediately.