VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #15

[Warwick7]

I guess "hung" is better than Guilty for KR and team. However given they were ,I think, expecting a NG based on the case as it unfolded...I find a "hung" a bad situation for KR. To not ever be vindicated in a court of law after these charges for me would mean a cloud over my head for the rest of time. That is assuming CW would not retry case. I don't know what others think but I expect sometime before lunch tomorrow another note same as last time. I am not holding out much hope that the hold out(s) are going to have an epiphany and change. I hope I am wrong.

If I'm not wrong, when the note said they were hung and the judge wanted to send them back Jackson protested.

The more research I have done the more it proves to me hung would benefit Read.

Now that LE and Lally have shown their hand they can't go back. CW would do well to reevaluate not to charge again.

And I believe very strongly, in the second go around, FBI would be brought in heavy-duty. And that would be extremely detrimental to prosecution.

MOO is she is better off with a hung jury.

 

[TIGER0822]

Agree your post.

I dont see KR as the victim. I know this will be unpopular statement but its moo.

Hypothetically:

KR not on trial, this never happened to her and roles were reversed and it was someone else in KR's shoes, do you think KR would be out there on the streets protesting? I dont.

moo

KR in my opinion is a victim of a police cover up (or at least very shoddy police work). Supporters are great, but not directly associated with the events. MOO

 

[BrownRice]

It's not on your options: 5. I believe Read is innocent but Jury will be hung

I think there needs to be a 6.

I don’t know if she is guilty or not guilty, but it has been proven that so many witnesses have been untruthful that I am unable to convict her so I’d be NG

 

[Misy]

IMO Colin Albert was definitely involved. Many reasons (one being people lied about him having been there, and then what time he left). But why did Julie Albert, Colin’s mom, tell Proctor she wanted to buy him a gift when this was all over. Moo

 

[jepop]

Especially with the "lessers" from other cases I have watched attorneys on both sides so spend some time in closing arguments explaining how to go thru the form. I heard nothing of the sort in these very rushed closings. One hour given the length of the case seemed just a rush to get this to the jury despite how much time the CW wasted during the 8 weeks. I did not hear the judge instructions however most attorneys want to present things in the light most favorable to their side.

For sure to all that, she rushed them at closing after such a complex and long presentation of evidence/testimony and had discretion to nominate more time if she so chose. She chose not.jmo

In my post I was thinking more along the lines of the point your raised regarding what a jury is to make of the word reasonable, and surmised that judges might and and infact do 'unpack' for juries a definition of reasonable and then reasonable doubt as a matter of course before sending them off to deliberate (and also make a point of the seriousness of their duty). I've seen judges do this at other trials and I think it's an important task for someone in the role of judge. Will get to her instructions at some point but I feel sure she must have done this in some way.jmo

 

[jepop]

I think there needs to be a 6.

I don’t know if she is guilty or not guilty, but it has been proven that so many witnesses have been untruthful that I am unable to convict her so I’d be NG

Undecided I guess

 

[Spectrix]

Thank you Spectrix!….. for reinforcing this^^…. I absolutely agree. Dr. Sheridan’s testimony was quite convincing. He spoke in very simple, clear, and convincing words and terminology.
And IMO if there is just one witness’ testimony - a single witness - on which to consider and introduce reasonable doubt for the defense it is his. His testimony alone IMO opened that door of reasonable doubt wide open. To further the analogy, IMO it removed the door from the hinges and it was placed in the attic of the house.

Yes, exactly my thoughts.
It seemed to me that the original Medical Examiner was very careful with her words and vague about many aspects of John O'Keefe's injuries. I felt that she may have been under pressure from Trooper Proctor and Co.
Dr Sheridan's testimony cleared up a lot of questions that I had about the particulars of JOK's injuries, particularly in regard to the possibility that JOK might have stumbled or walked to his final resting place (he couldn't) or whether JOK could have in fact been lying out in the snow for six hours (he couldn't).

JOK is unconscious and immobile after the blow to his head. The blow is so severe that it sends multiple fractures around the skull, and the subsequent swelling of the brain and brain stem leads to downward herniation as the brain is encapsulated by the ridged confines of the skull.
This puts such pressure upon the spinal cord that respiratory failure is imminent.

When he was discovered around 6am, his body temperature was still 80*f.
He died shortly after his injury and he was certainly not lying out in the snow for six hours. One of these two scenarios is likely:

1. If he was injured outside as suggested by the CW, it was after 3am, or
2. His time of death was earlier but he remained indoors in a heated environment and moved outside sometime after 3am.

 

[turaj]

If I'm not wrong, when the note said they were hung and the judge wanted to send them back Jackson protested.

The more research I have done the more it proves to me hung would benefit Read.

Now that LE and Lally have shown their hand they can't go back. CW would do well to reevaluate not to charge again.

And I believe very strongly, in the second go around, FBI would be brought in heavy-duty. And that would be extremely detrimental to prosecution.

MOO is she is better off with a hung jury.

yes better off with hung than guilty but NG would have been the best and I am still hoping until they come back tomorrow. As for AJ what he wanted was the stronger "Allen charge" (called something else in Ma.) and I now agree that would have been better than the sort of nothing response..."have lunch and clear heads". Some of those charges give ideas and strategies for making really sure they can't move ahead. They may well get that on Monday.

 

[Bibbers]

dbm

 

[BUF]

IMO Colin Albert was definitely involved. Many reasons (one being people lied about him having been there, and then what time he left). But why did Julie Albert, Colin’s mom, tell Proctor she wanted to buy him a gift when this was all over. Moo

IDK, but will say that I was left with a very uneasy feeling after his
“I don’t know” “I can’t recall” testimony.

 

[kittythehare]

Perhaps the wording "created" not used properly.

However, I've not determined definitively whether KR did or didn't hit JOK, because the case is so complex. It's been that way for me since first reading everything I can about this case. It's important to skip over bloggers, YTer's and anyone who has an agenda, they care only about clicks, as you already know.

I am interested in hearing why you first thought guilty, but changed to not guilty, if you choose to share. TIA

I've stated all along there's a lot of reasonable doubt and she will walk. Ive not waver from that initial stance. Which agree with, she should walk, because of the lack of evidence presented ... no proof she committed this crime beyond a reasonable doubt (BARD).

Will the jurors use their common sense. I suspect they're confused by some of the info. They will follow MA laws.

She is innocent until proven guilty BARD.

Speculation and moo

I spend very little time on u tube...
For some reason that trial came on..'woman accused of murdering policeman'
I assumed it was true from the title.
Then I started watching the trial and I grew more and mor appalled at the testimonies of the prosecution witnesses.
Particularly BA...

I based my opinion that he was not hit by a vehicle on the medical evidence only and my own medical knowledge, having spent too many years nursing...

I don't know the whys of it.

I neither like nor dislike KR. I'm not drawn to her personality but I've been where she was in a dysfunctional relationship, prolonging the end of it interminably. It was an abusive relationship, that takes two. But it was probably good once and fixable.. That ship sailed. The passengers had just not disembarked.

I do hate injustice.

I had not been aware of the 'noise' around this whole matter and I can take or leave bloggers.. I'm not the most patient of people with them.

Because of my own family LE connections I hold them to a higher account.. in every country..
I've seen plenty of good ones and they're inspiring but the bad ones are a desecration of values and ethics, an insult to the soul.


It is very clear to me that his death was not as described by the prosecution, I respect science and I respect simple common sense.

You asked.

This is just me.

 

[kittythehare]

From memory, the experienced experts testified to the uniformity and discreteness of the claw marks and one bite mark (both Dr Russell and Dr Sheridan reached the same conclusions which was another big plus in terms of credibility of expert opinion. jmo). I believe this was one of the indicators the wounds were very probably the result of an animal's claws and teeth. The experts went on to describe other strong indicators that narrowed it down to a dog as the most likely candidate. Jmo

I keep posting how odd it is to me that the actual ME when on the stand, showed no curiosity whatsoever in terms of getting an outside opinion or doing some of her own research using a wound data base or something, to account for any role wounds may have played in JO's manner of death. Moo

I'm aghast that she failed to take a DNA sample directly from the wounds...

 

[jepop]

Should start a list. Did Lally he say that KR drove back to FV at around 3am (3.30am)?? Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

That's not right as far as I can ascertain from my memory of testimony. There was no evidence in trial that she was driving to fairview at 3am. But you're asking re closing right? Sorry to say I'm not the one to listen to that again but maybe someone has already and can confirm or if not take one for the team and have a listen haha.

 

[kittythehare]

That's not right as far as I can ascertain from my memory of testimony. There was no evidence in trial that she was driving to fairview at 3am. But you're asking re closing right? Sorry to say I'm not the one to listen to that again but maybe someone has already and can confirm or if not take one for the team and have a listen haha.

not a hope!

 

[jepop]

I'm aghast that she failed to take a DNA sample directly from the wounds...

Yeah there's that. Have to say I've thought for some time that she's not as independent as she claimed under oath. Either that or she's a sub par ME. moo

 

[jepop]

not aA hope!

HaHahha I'm not too bad a team player but likewise I have limits

 

[themonk]

The thing is that the CW presented a lot of evidence. The defense had to make the jury feel like all of that evidence was compromised and untrustworthy. That means all of the first responders, LE and the <modsnip> had to be discredited. But they didn't bother with Kerry Roberts. That stands out.

There is no reason for her tail light pieces to be there. So she had to leave them there or it had to be planted. Did they prove that Proctor being angry with Karen led to him definitely planting those pieces? It is not proof of that, but I understand why people would not trust him after that. Tunnel vision can be just as damaging as a blatantly planting evidence. But for the conspiracy to work, Proctor helping set Karen up works better because they can claim every person he talked to is tainted through him.

But is that enough to make the jury believe that people are all lying and the only person telling the truth - through her attorneys - is Karen? I can't wait to hear what the split is. I will be surprised if it is in favor of conviction. But also I would be surprised if it is 4 or 5 in favor of conviction.

The tail light was largely intact, and then it was completely obliterated after having been in Canton PD custody.

This is so obvious I can't see how it is not apparent to the entire world.

Some just don't want to believe cops plant evidence.

They do, all the time. To think otherwise is naive.

 

[kittythehare]

Yes, exactly my thoughts.
It seemed to me that the original Medical Examiner was very careful with her words and vague about many aspects of John O'Keefe's injuries. I felt that she may have been under pressure from Trooper Proctor and Co.
Dr Sheridan's testimony cleared up a lot of questions that I had about the particulars of JOK's injuries, particularly in regard to the possibility that JOK might have stumbled or walked to his final resting place (he couldn't) or whether JOK could have in fact been lying out in the snow for six hours (he couldn't).

JOK is unconscious and immobile after the blow to his head. The blow is so severe that it sends multiple fractures around the skull, and the subsequent swelling of the brain and brain stem leads to downward herniation as the brain is encapsulated by the ridged confines of the skull.
This puts such pressure upon the spinal cord that respiratory failure is imminent.

When he was discovered around 6am, his body temperature was still 80*f.
He died shortly after his injury and he was certainly not lying out in the snow for six hours. One of these two scenarios is likely:

1. If he was injured outside as suggested by the CW, it was after 3am, or
2. His time of death was earlier but he remained indoors in a heated environment and moved outside sometime after 3am.

Recall , Lucky passed at 2.30am and saw the vehicle, possibly parked in that way to block a view of some activity.

 

[jepop]

Recall , Lucky passed at 2.30am and saw the vehicle, possibly parked in that way to block a view of some activity.

It was later than that, after 3am or around 3.30am when he saw ford edge. 2.30am was his first pass when he saw no body and then also on his way back no body at about 2.45 am. Hope jury have a big white board in there to set out any time lines they might need though likely moot point by now. moo

 

[IDK]

The tail light was largely intact, and then it was completely obliterated after having been in Canton PD custody.

This is so obvious I can't see how it is not apparent to the entire world.

Some just don't want to believe cope plant evidence.

They do, all the time. To think otherwise is naive.

Agreed that cops plant evidence sometimes, not sure if it’s “all the time”, though. Obviously, if that happened, it is corrupt and despicable behavior that should be addressed.
However, the fact of planting evidence alone does not necessarily mean a defendant is innocent. All my opinion.