MISTRIAL MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #16

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People do need to catch up if jumping in as sure there are many videos of the trial to be found. John did not return her texts, she waited, waited, then went back to his house. No messages from John, she said he would not leave his niece home alone. He didn't know if KR was going back to his house or not as he was attacked pretty immediately when he entered the 34 FV house. The end. This is for someone asking about KR's actions abo
I have not watched all 23 days, maybe about 1/2 now. Some of the key people I have watch over and over again. Since timeline differs so much between people. Also watch some pundits summaries. This is a real long case, and so many people involved. I am sure I have forgotten parts of it.
 
I find her likeable. She seems like a real person dealing with a real situation here with her life on the line.

I find her attorneys likeable too. Her lawyers obviously know what they're doing. They practically have tried to solve this case with other possibilities based on evidence, something that LE was supposed to have done from the very beginning. Everything they've presented has been based on evidence, at least what I've seen so far. I think Yannetti must be having a masterclass in lawyering because of Jackson's presence and same with the female lawyer.

I should add that I really like the quirkiness of Prosecutor Lally too and he has obviously put in many hours trying to understand this case. I give him credit for holding his own against the fancy city lawyers as best he could. I imagine he might have seen nothing like this case before in his career. I even like the judge, who again, I imagine may have never had a well-known attorney before her in the past.

I wondered why KR waited too. What was even their purpose for going there if she wasn't going in with him? Was he going in to go to the door and ask if Karen was welcome too. How would he get home if he was planning on staying. I have a lot of questions about why they even went there that night.

Your last sentence about why lie about dropping him off a the bar ... what is that about? Thanks.

MOO.
I believe KR told Jen that she had dropped JO at the bar when she first called her in the morning, and then was told by Jen and her husband over the phone, that they had seen her car at the party.
 
They were a couple, so her excuse of not being invited personally makes no sense to me.


Snipping.

Watch the Waterfall video. Karen was not standing near John most of that time. He heard an open general invitation, she did not. Couple or not, this makes perfect sense to me. And keep in mind these people are all drunk by this time of the night.

She also didn't feel well. Nothing odd about her not wanting to go in or waiting for John to confirm he was going to stay. A confirmation that never came.

Finally, I suspect John didn't go to Fairview to party. Something seems to have happened between him and Higgins as they were leaving the bar (again, see the video) and we know Higgins texted Karen while they were at the Waterfall. I think there is a very good chance he wanted a "chat" with Higgins. Testosterone, anger and lots of booze. Never a good mix.
 
I believe KR told Jen that she had dropped JO at the bar when she first called her in the morning, and then was told by Jen and her husband over the phone, that they had seen her car at the party.

Jen's a proven liar. But trauma and alcohol can play with memory. There's still zero evidence John was hit by a car. See the real experts' testimonies.
 
Snipping.

Watch the Waterfall video. Karen was not standing near John most of that time. He heard an open general invitation, she did not. Couple or not, this makes perfect sense to me. And keep in mind these people are all drunk by this time of the night.

She also didn't feel well. Nothing odd about her not wanting to go in or waiting for John to confirm he was going to stay. A confirmation that never came.

Finally, I suspect John didn't go to Fairview to party. Something seems to have happened between him and Higgins as they were leaving the bar (again, see the video) and we know Higgins texted Karen while they were at the Waterfall. I think there is a very good chance he wanted a "chat" with Higgins. Testosterone, anger and lots of booze. Never a good mix.
I saw the play fighting of BA and BH, so drunk and testosterone was flowing for sure. But, I thought two people saw them both going to party, in route. The people that went to pick up that girl.

Higgins for sure hiding something. Went back to his office in the middle of the night, and entered through the back door. He looked professional to me on the stand, but lying through his teeth...allll my opinion of course. AND suspect calls with BA in the middle of the night...and his wanderings the next day at throughout his office, even though it was his day off.
 
Snipping.

Watch the Waterfall video. Karen was not standing near John most of that time. He heard an open general invitation, she did not. Couple or not, this makes perfect sense to me. And keep in mind these people are all drunk by this time of the night.

She also didn't feel well. Nothing odd about her not wanting to go in or waiting for John to confirm he was going to stay. A confirmation that never came.

Finally, I suspect John didn't go to Fairview to party. Something seems to have happened between him and Higgins as they were leaving the bar (again, see the video) and we know Higgins texted Karen while they were at the Waterfall. I think there is a very good chance he wanted a "chat" with Higgins. Testosterone, anger and lots of booze. Never a good mix.
OH...I understand now. Yes, maybe even KR told JO about Higgins....to make him jealous.
 
I saw the pretrial hearing where defense wanted DNA from the clothing, but have not watched 23 days of trial to know if these tests were done looking for dog DNA. I would like to watch the defense and prosecution question the autopsy results but don't know how to find those days...anyone know?

I know that pre-trial they asked and were granted permission to test the pants. There were as I understand 3 different DNA on the blood on his pants. This didn't have to do with the dog DNA. They went back and asked the judge again asking for the pants and said that the CW still hadn't provided them. I also remember a particular hearing where they said they had been asking for the pants to test for 2 full years and the CW was still stalling and not giving it to them. The judge had ordered that they could have them; yet the CW still resisted. Why is that I wonder? I really do not like the way that I feel about the CW. I generally do not see a prosecution as being shady, but in this case...

ETA: Clarification about the DNA
 
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Snipping.

Watch the Waterfall video. Karen was not standing near John most of that time. He heard an open general invitation, she did not. Couple or not, this makes perfect sense to me. And keep in mind these people are all drunk by this time of the night.

She also didn't feel well. Nothing odd about her not wanting to go in or waiting for John to confirm he was going to stay. A confirmation that never came.

Finally, I suspect John didn't go to Fairview to party. Something seems to have happened between him and Higgins as they were leaving the bar (again, see the video) and we know Higgins texted Karen while they were at the Waterfall. I think there is a very good chance he wanted a "chat" with Higgins. Testosterone, anger and lots of booze. Ne

Snipping.

Watch the Waterfall video. Karen was not standing near John most of that time. He heard an open general invitation, she did not. Couple or not, this makes perfect sense to me. And keep in mind these people are all drunk by this time of the night.

She also didn't feel well. Nothing odd about her not wanting to go in or waiting for John to confirm he was going to stay. A confirmation that never came.

Finally, I suspect John didn't go to Fairview to party. Something seems to have happened between him and Higgins as they were leaving the bar (again, see the video) and we know Higgins texted Karen while they were at the Waterfall. I think there is a very good chance he wanted a "chat" with Higgins. Testosterone, anger and lots of booze. Never a good mix.
Watching the entire Waterfall video. Higgins calling over to JO and KR down by the bar. C. Albert grabbing his arm. Looked very clear to me that Higgins then threw JO the finger. He was AGGITATED. Things were not going the way he thought as he texted KR that night, there maybe, about tonight? Hmmm. ASKING her a question about him and her or her and John, appearing happily together. Alcohol and ego and prob had let C. Albert know what transpired between KR and himself. Ego like that and feeling KR flaunting her and JO in his face , well, . Horrible night, split minute decisions. KR was def NOT going into that house but never imagined it would be such a horrible event as it was.
 
Watching the entire Waterfall video. Higgins calling over to JO and KR down by the bar. C. Albert grabbing his arm. Looked very clear to me that Higgins then threw JO the finger. He was AGGITATED. Things were not going the way he thought as he texted KR that night, there maybe, about tonight? Hmmm. ASKING her a question about him and her or her and John, appearing happily together. Alcohol and ego and prob had let C. Albert know what transpired between KR and himself. Ego like that and feeling KR flaunting her and JO in his face , well, . Horrible night, split minute decisions. KR was def NOT going into that house but never imagined it would be such a horrible event as it was.
Would you have a link to this particular video of the Waterfall please?
I've seen some of them but haven't noticed this one.
Also, Who is C. Albert?
ETA: Oh, is it Chris Albert you're referring to?
 
Would you have a link to this particular video of the Waterfall please? I've seen some of them but haven't noticed this one. Also, Who is C. Albert?
No, I do not but you can google that and I am sure it will turn up . ALSO C. ALBERT.. MAIN PLAYER.
 
No, I do not but you can google that and I am sure it will turn up . ALSO C. ALBERT.. MAIN PLAYER.
What would I google though? There were a bunch of Waterfall videos that were shown, but I think they were all different times.
 
I was looking at some other theories and I think this whole thing went down in the basement of the house..he hit his head on the weightlifting equipment during a dog attack...his injuries tell the story. they cleaned up the basement, replaced the flooring, got rid of the dog ( who had a history of aggression and attacks) and promptly sold the house.

so maybe they weren't looking to frame Karen per say but that's how it spelled out once they could hit on her tail light as
evidence something occurred when actually she busted it in a parking lot.

Karen is a drunk driver and the whole thing is a drunken mess...a touchy dog around drunk people is a bad mix.

someone theorized they moved his body through the garage and put him in the car and placed him there in hopes
it looks like he got hit by a plow or whatever.

I agree with this synopsis. I think what I see in Karen is that she is sick of her life being ruined and is incredulous and
looks smug and is maybe even acting out a bit under all the stress. I think this is why she is becoming kind of polarizing
and unlikable .

and if she did this then it was a really stupid out of control thing to do, probably not with intention to kill but still a drunken vehicular homicide. but if she did this why can't they show me how she did it? show me where she hit him, where he hit his head, where he got puncture wounds on his arms and what was found inside those wounds, show me a model of the accident that occurred. if not then, how do we know this accident occurred? and then prove to me that she even knew she hit him...prove it.

mOO
I feel like this theory covers a lot of what is confusing about this, and I personally can see this as similar to the way it really happened. One thing about it though that does raise more questions: in this scenario, the people in the house (or at least someone in the house) would know about Chloe attacking JO, right? But they left him out there anyway, hoping it looked like he got hit by a car or plow? What did they think investigators would think about the evidence of dog injuries on his arm? Did no one think that would be a problem? Maybe they were just too drunk to worry about the details. Or maybe they relied on their pull w/LE, being cops themselves. Maybe they thought the arm injuries would just look like more vehicle accident wounds. They may have looked different at first and not so obviously dog-related (imo). So the theory can still stand, imo, because there are several ways they may not have seen this as a problem later, but it did still sound like they should have to me.
 
I know that pre-trial they asked and were granted permission to test the pants. There were as I understand 3 different DNA on the blood on his pants. This didn't have to do with the dog DNA. They went back and asked the judge again asking for the pants and said that the CW still hadn't provided them. I also remember a particular hearing where they said they had been asking for the pants to test for 2 full years and the CW was still stalling and not giving it to them. The judge had ordered that they could have them; yet the CW still resisted. Why is that I wonder? I really do not like the way that I feel about the CW. I generally do not see a prosecution as being shady, but in this case...

ETA: Clarification about the DNA
IIRC...the hearing I heard was about his shirt, and thought they mentioned dog DNA. Probably had more then one hearing on DNA discovery issues.
 
What would I google though? There were a bunch of Waterfall videos that were shown, but I think they were all different times.
Just John O'Keefe/Waterfall/Canton should bring it up.. prob a few or more recopied of course. It is from the bar that night..bit grainy and black white. but check them out.
 
Why does he need to hit his head on the verge? My assumption would be that he was propelled in the air, and then hit his head on the cold hard ground (or something on top of it).

We know that Karen slammed on her accelerator and that her vehicle accelerated to 24mph in reverse. But for all we know, at least for all I know, it seems possible to me that she initially hit him at a very low speed - and then slammed the accelerator (maybe because she was startled and her foot had already been on the accelerator).

I am not an accident reconstructionist, but I feel like that kind of scenario could help explain a lack of evidence indicating a particularly violent initial strike, while still explaining how he could have been violently propelled in the air; he would have already been more or less attached to her vehicle when it sped up.
I thought there was evidence shown in court that her vehicle data showed that the only time it did a fast reverse was AFTER the cops had it towed into their garage and it was no longer in KR's possession. Like the cops had done the reverse themselves while testing it, trying to recreate what may have happened that night. It was in the "key cycle" (or ignition cycle) chart.
 
Commentary on case...don't know how much is on target:


 
I thought there was evidence shown in court that her vehicle data showed that the only time it did a fast reverse was AFTER the cops had it towed into their garage and it was no longer in KR's possession. Like the cops had done the reverse themselves while testing it, trying to recreate what may have happened that night. It was in the "key cycle" (or ignition cycle) chart.
Yes, true.
 
Watching the entire Waterfall video. Higgins calling over to JO and KR down by the bar. C. Albert grabbing his arm. Looked very clear to me that Higgins then threw JO the finger. He was AGGITATED.
If anyone can point me to the spot in the Waterfall video that @keek has referred to or link it, that would be appreciated. I've watched several clips during the trial, none of which pointed out Higgins giving the finger, and I'm not able to search the entire video right now. Thank you.
 
Would you have a link to this particular video of the Waterfall please?
I've seen some of them but haven't noticed this one.
Also, Who is C. Albert?
ETA: Oh, is it Chris Albert you're referring to?
I posted links to the video during the trial, and they were nuked because the videos are posted by unapproved sources (turleboy). It's one of those things you have to go find yourself.
 

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