MISTRIAL MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #17

[Forest_Wood]

He made this statement, which was more like a statement from a private Defense Attorney than a judge.

Yes, that could be too. The way he was declaring certain people innocent seemed more like making a judgment to me, and he was doing this during an active case. It was weird any way you look at it IMO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Just leaving this here since some are concerned John O’Keefe wasn’t bruised enough to have been hit by a car:

• “Delayed bruising: In the context of car accidents, delayed bruising can occur when the impact damages blood vessels, leading to the gradual leakage of blood. This type of bruising may not become visible until hours or even days after the collision.”

Delayed Injury Symptoms To Look For After a Car Wreck - Wells Call Injury Lawyers

Discover the hidden dangers of delayed injury symptoms following a car wreck. Learn what signs to watch for and protect your health. Don't wait, read now!

www.wccbc.com

He had no bruising below the neck. Delayed or otherwise.

 

[lilyk]

Just leaving this here since some are concerned John O’Keefe wasn’t bruised enough to have been hit by a car:

• “Delayed bruising: In the context of car accidents, delayed bruising can occur when the impact damages blood vessels, leading to the gradual leakage of blood. This type of bruising may not become visible until hours or even days after the collision.”

Delayed Injury Symptoms To Look For After a Car Wreck - Wells Call Injury Lawyers

Discover the hidden dangers of delayed injury symptoms following a car wreck. Learn what signs to watch for and protect your health. Don't wait, read now!

www.wccbc.com

Taking this as valid across the board medical information when it comes from a personal injury lawyer website and ignores all the nuances of bruising behavior, types and influencing factors would be unwise.

The medical examiner testified to JO having Wischnewski spots (a type of bruising often associated with hypothermia but not exclusively) inside his stomach and pancreas only. These aren't what we know as normal soft-tissue-trauma-induced-capillary-tearing bruises. The ME cut him open and looked EVERYWHERE inside him for additional internal tissue-damage from trauma and found none outside of his skull. And CPR rib fractures. Internal injuries that bleed fill the abdominal cavity with blood. There wasn't any. We would have heard about it. Internal injuries to organs, abdominal muscles, and vessels from trauma that cause bruising would have been observed as well when she looked inside. If he had a heartbeat and time to develop raccoon eyes, and Wischnewski bruising, and bruising on his hand, common sense says she would have had time develop bruising elsewhere outside or inside from a trauma great enough to fracture the skull. The CW most assuredly would have had the ME describe in great detail any other internal or external injuries had there been any. But there weren't, so there's nothing meaningful to "wait for" with regard to deeper bruises coming to the surface from say his meaty buttocks or a bone bruise IMO. Ribs, upper pelvises, knees, ankles, acromions, scapulae elbows, hands and any other body part not padded by fat or muscle will start to show visible bruising after trauma very quickly. Seconds, minutes, not hours or days for those goose eggs and bruising to start. They'll evolve and change sometimes quite dramatically over days, but you'll see them start quickly.

The radiating skull fracture at the base of his skull occurred with such force that it created fracture lines spanning from the back of his head across his skull to the anterior (front) of his skull. He was either hit very hard, very directly, on the back of his head with a hard blunt object, or fell backwards and hit his head on something very hard. The ground wouldn't do this IMO unless he landed on a rock. Or the fire hydrant that was too far away.

He wasn't bruised enough to have been hit by a car.


MOO

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

L

Those were not the best minds.

1/3 of low speed crashes with pedestrians result in severe injuries.

These guys testified for free so that every defense attorney in America would know their company's name. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

IMO

lmao. I hardly think ARCCA needs the name recognition. They’re certainly well known enough for the FBI to hire them and trust them with the investigation. Both these guys stated that they’ve testified in multiple trials before both for the prosecution and defense.

 

[IDK]

Taking this as valid across the board medical information when it comes from a personal injury lawyer website and ignores all the nuances of bruising behavior, types and influencing factors would be unwise.

The medical examiner testified to JO having Wischnewski spots (a type of bruising often associated with hypothermia but not exclusively) inside his stomach and pancreas only. These aren't what we know as normal soft-tissue-trauma-induced-capillary-tearing bruises. The ME cut him open and looked EVERYWHERE inside him for additional internal tissue-damage from trauma and found none outside of his skull. And CPR rib fractures. Internal injuries that bleed fill the abdominal cavity with blood. There wasn't any. We would have heard about it. Internal injuries to organs, abdominal muscles, and vessels from trauma that cause bruising would have been observed as well when she looked inside. If he had a heartbeat and time to develop raccoon eyes, and Wischnewski bruising, and bruising on his hand, common sense says she would have had time develop bruising elsewhere outside or inside from a trauma great enough to fracture the skull. The CW most assuredly would have had the ME describe in great detail any other internal or external injuries had there been any. But there weren't, so there's nothing meaningful to "wait for" with regard to deeper bruises coming to the surface from say his meaty buttocks or a bone bruise IMO. Ribs, upper pelvises, knees, ankles, acromions, scapulae elbows, hands and any other body part not padded by fat or muscle will start to show visible bruising after trauma very quickly. Seconds, minutes, not hours or days for those goose eggs and bruising to start. They'll evolve and change sometimes quite dramatically over days, but you'll see them start quickly.

The radiating skull fracture at the base of his skull occurred with such force that it created fracture lines spanning from the back of his head across his skull to the anterior (front) of his skull. He was either hit very hard, very directly, on the back of his head with a hard blunt object, or fell backwards and hit his head on something very hard. The ground wouldn't do this IMO unless he landed on a rock. Or the fire hydrant that was too far away.

He wasn't bruised enough to have been hit by a car.


MOO

Except from what was reported, the ME herself who actually conducted the autopsy could not exclude being hit by a car as the cause of his injuries when questioned on the witness stand….. IMO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Except from what was reported, the ME herself who actually conducted the autopsy could not exclude being hit by a car as the cause of his injuries when questioned on the witness stand….. IMO.

Nor could she exclude a beating when questioned on the witness stand.

Burden of proof belongs with anyone claiming he was hit by a car.

 

[kittythehare]

 

[rescuemom]

Taking this as valid across the board medical information when it comes from a personal injury lawyer website and ignores all the nuances of bruising behavior, types and influencing factors would be unwise.

The medical examiner testified to JO having Wischnewski spots (a type of bruising often associated with hypothermia but not exclusively) inside his stomach and pancreas only. These aren't what we know as normal soft-tissue-trauma-induced-capillary-tearing bruises. The ME cut him open and looked EVERYWHERE inside him for additional internal tissue-damage from trauma and found none outside of his skull. And CPR rib fractures. Internal injuries that bleed fill the abdominal cavity with blood. There wasn't any. We would have heard about it. Internal injuries to organs, abdominal muscles, and vessels from trauma that cause bruising would have been observed as well when she looked inside. If he had a heartbeat and time to develop raccoon eyes, and Wischnewski bruising, and bruising on his hand, common sense says she would have had time develop bruising elsewhere outside or inside from a trauma great enough to fracture the skull. The CW most assuredly would have had the ME describe in great detail any other internal or external injuries had there been any. But there weren't, so there's nothing meaningful to "wait for" with regard to deeper bruises coming to the surface from say his meaty buttocks or a bone bruise IMO. Ribs, upper pelvises, knees, ankles, acromions, scapulae elbows, hands and any other body part not padded by fat or muscle will start to show visible bruising after trauma very quickly. Seconds, minutes, not hours or days for those goose eggs and bruising to start. They'll evolve and change sometimes quite dramatically over days, but you'll see them start quickly.

The radiating skull fracture at the base of his skull occurred with such force that it created fracture lines spanning from the back of his head across his skull to the anterior (front) of his skull. He was either hit very hard, very directly, on the back of his head with a hard blunt object, or fell backwards and hit his head on something very hard. The ground wouldn't do this IMO unless he landed on a rock. Or the fire hydrant that was too far away.

He wasn't bruised enough to have been hit by a car.


MOO

He was either hit very hard, very directly, on the back of his head with a hard blunt object, or fell backwards and hit his head on something very hard. The ground wouldn't do this IMO unless he landed on a rock. Or the fire hydrant that was too far away.
JMO, but how about a barbell or disc or something from a set of weights?

 

[Curiousobserver]

He was either hit very hard, very directly, on the back of his head with a hard blunt object, or fell backwards and hit his head on something very hard. The ground wouldn't do this IMO unless he landed on a rock. Or the fire hydrant that was too far away.
JMO, but how about a barbell or disc or something from a set of weights?

I think you need to give considerable latitude to what might have happened since both of the people were very drunk, almost to the point of unconsciousness. One scenario is he existed the car and was leaning down to vomit (which was all over him) and she hit the back of his head with the spine of the tail light, as he braced himself his right arm ended up in the wheel well and was dragged a short distance backward, and then forward when she completed the turn. You can imagine a hundred other scenarios where the back of his head hit the tail light, the ground, the fire hydrant or whatever and none of them take more than a minute to happen.

The critical things is that there are only 2 ways that you get tail light pieces on the ground and on his shirt with his DNA on the tail light. The simplest is that he and that tail light made violent contact at some point right there in that spot. The second is that Michael Proctor planted all of that evidence without being detected. While MP certainly should not have sent any of those emails to his sister they in no way are evidence that he planted evidence.

During the course of every investigation, police have the opportunity to plant evidence.

If we allowed every defendant to be acquitted simply because it's possible, based on gaps in the investigation, that police planted evidence we might as well close our court system. (and I am in no way naive to think this doesn't happen)

 

[ch_13]

I think you need to give considerable latitude to what might have happened since both of the people were very drunk, almost to the point of unconsciousness. One scenario is he existed the car and was leaning down to vomit (which was all over him) and she hit the back of his head with the spine of the tail light, as he braced himself his right arm ended up in the wheel well and was dragged a short distance backward, and then forward when she completed the turn. You can imagine a hundred other scenarios where the back of his head hit the tail light, the ground, the fire hydrant or whatever and none of them take more than a minute to happen.

The critical things is that there are only 2 ways that you get tail light pieces on the ground and on his shirt with his DNA on the tail light. The simplest is that he and that tail light made violent contact at some point right there in that spot. The second is that Michael Proctor planted all of that evidence without being detected. While MP certainly should not have sent any of those emails to his sister they in no way are evidence that he planted evidence.

During the course of every investigation, police have the opportunity to plant evidence.

If we allowed every defendant to be acquitted simply because it's possible, based on gaps in the investigation, that police planted evidence we might as well close our court system. (and I am in no way naive to think this doesn't happen)

There's no way that matching glass appears on Karen Read's bumper and at 34 Fairview unless it was purposefully placed there by someone. It wasn't JO's drinking glass, so it had to come from somewhere else.

If the pieces of glass were planted, then that certainly makes the planting of the taillight evidence more likely. Especially when you consider that Proctor lied in his police report about when the SUV was taken into police custody. And that lie would be maintained for 1 1/2 years with DA Lally insisting that the police report was correct in multiple pre-trial hearings. Only after the defense proved they were wrong with actual video footage that was synced to a time server, did the prosecution finally relent. If the defense didn't have the footage, the DA would have never admitted that the report was a lie.

 

[Curiousobserver]

There's no way that matching glass appears on Karen Read's bumper and at 34 Fairview unless it was purposefully placed there by someone. It wasn't JO's drinking glass, so it had to come from somewhere else.

If the pieces of glass were planted, then that certainly makes the planting of the taillight evidence more likely. Especially when you consider that Proctor lied in his police report about when the SUV was taken into police custody. And that lie would be maintained for 1 1/2 years with DA Lally insisting that the police report was correct in multiple pre-trial hearings. Only after the defense proved they were wrong with actual video footage that was synced to a time server, did the prosecution finally relent. If the defense didn't have the footage, the DA would have never admitted that the report was a lie.

But again you are equating opportunity to plant as evidence he did it. Every single police officer always has opportunity to plant evidence.

I have an open mind- can anybody point to evidence that any evidence was planted vs simply having had a opportunity to plant it?

JO's drinking glass and pieces matching it were found at the scene, as well as small pieces of other glass they could not match to JO's glass using the technology they had. That doesn't mean the non-matching glass was planted by a police officer, it means it either is from another glass, or using other technology it might actually match.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

In Friday’s filing, the Norfolk DA’s Office said the defense’s motion to dismiss is “premised upon hearsay, conjecture, and legally inappropriate reliance as to the substance of jury deliberations.”

The DA’s Office also pointed out in the filing that “the jury’s communications to the court explicitly indicated an impasse on all charges” and the judge never asked the jury what the impasse was over.

Judge Beverly Cannone has ordered an impoundment of the jurors’ list.

‘Premised upon hearsay’: Prosecutors oppose motion to dismiss charges in Karen Read murder case

Prosecutors in the Karen Read murder case filed documents Friday in opposition to the defense’s post-trial motion to dismiss criminal charges that the Mansfield woman is facing in the death of her Boston police officer boyfriend John O’Keefe.

www.boston25news.com

 

[ch_13]

But again you are equating opportunity to plant as evidence he did it. Every single police officer always has opportunity to plant evidence.

I have an open mind- can anybody point to evidence that any evidence was planted vs simply having had a opportunity to plant it?

JO's drinking glass and pieces matching it were found at the scene, as well as small pieces of other glass they could not match to JO's glass using the technology they had. That doesn't mean the non-matching glass was planted by a police officer, it means it either is from another glass, or using other technology it might actually match.

In my experience, bumpers are not collection points for glass pieces. I've never had any glass magically appear on my bumper. And the crime scene techs confirmed that the glass on the bumper matched to a piece of glass that Michael Proctor turned in and claimed that he found at the crime scene.

At best, KR's SUV was only sitting outside of 34 Fairview for a few minutes. How could the glass have come to rest at both places, it makes no sense, IMO, unless they were placed there.

If you believe that it's just some coincidence that these two pieces are matching and doesn't implicate the police in fabricating evidence, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Read's lawyers have said that they heard directly from a pair of jurors, and from others on the thinking of two more jurors, that the jury would have voted unanimously to find her not guilty on charges, including murder.

But prosecutors said in their new filing that "the jury's communications to the court explicitly indicated an impasse on all charges." They also noted that Read's lawyers never requested that Judge Beverly Cannone inquire what charge or charges the jury was deadlocked on

Karen Read case: Prosecution replies to defense motion to dismiss charges

Prosecutors in the Karen Read case have filed their response to the defense’s request to dismiss two of the three charges against her in the death of her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O’Keefe. The Norfolk District Attorney’s Office opposes the motion, saying in a court filing Friday it’s...

www.nbcboston.com

 

[kittythehare]

In my experience, bumpers are not collection points for glass pieces. I've never had any glass magically appear on my bumper. And the crime scene techs confirmed that the glass on the bumper matched to a piece of glass that Michael Proctor turned in and claimed that he found at the crime scene.

At best, KR's SUV was only sitting outside of 34 Fairview for a few minutes. How could the glass have come to rest at both places, it makes no sense, IMO, unless they were placed there.

If you believe that it's just some coincidence that these two pieces are matching and doesn't implicate the police in fabricating evidence, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I reckon myself that 'suspended without pay' is for considerably more than misogynistic texts to his wee cult..
I don't think this was his first rodeo either...
Was it?
How does anybody imagine the appeal jury will weigh his bits of glass and give them credence.

I believe the Karen Read case s just the tip of the iceberg.

This is how we do things in Mass and we ain't no quit.


Quite!

 

[TIGER0822]

Any Attorney able to chip in?
Is there grounds for AG Morrissey to be disbarred?

 

[TIGER0822]

L

lmao. I hardly think ARCCA needs the name recognition. They’re certainly well known enough for the FBI to hire them and trust them with the investigation. Both these guys stated that they’ve testified in multiple trials before both for the prosecution and defense.

The FBI would likely not allow then to profit from a report they put together.