HawthorneJuniper
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double post dbm
MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #3
- Thread starter Bishop Black
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She went to his home.
His niece was there, but nephew was at a sleepover.
I can understand waking up and being worried, but I don’t understand the instant panic, screaming and hysteria part. I wonder if she thought he was with another woman. Maybe she called JMc to ask when John left and with whom.
Then JMc says “what are you talking about, he wasn’t ever there” and that’s when Karen got panicked, afraid maybe he had tried to walk home after she left?
In which case it makes sense to go to the Albert house, because that’s his last known location, looking for him along the way. That’s why KR spotted him first, because she’d been watching out the window the whole way.
Still doesn’t explain what happened to him, but makes more sense for what was going on with Karen.
It’s John’s right arm, and it’s highly unlikely that the injuries are from acrylic nails. There’s no way acrylics would have stayed on scratching someone that hard, so Karen would have had messed up nails, and she couldn’t have gotten a good hold of his right arm in the car.
AppleTreeGreen
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Just curious but I wonder why JM didn’t call her sister and brother in-law to let them know they were on the way to their home because JO was missing, Karen was hysterical and thinks she might have him with her car and wanted to check at their place?
IMO, but if you were worried that someone is hurt or missing and you think your relatives place might offer some clue and you were going there wouldn’t you let them know in case they could help look or get worried too?
IMO, but if you were worried that someone is hurt or missing and you think your relatives place might offer some clue and you were going there wouldn’t you let them know in case they could help look or get worried too?
Universecalling
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So he was punching a bag with only one hand?
GMAB
The plan works better if Karen is the one who discovers the deceased.
DeDee
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Yes, I agree. It was a horrific tragedy to watch unfold the past couple of days. It's messed up many lives that will never be the same again. These people are soccer moms and working class dads who run around with their children to sporting events. They rejoiced in John's niece being accepted into Bishop. John bought two families sneakers because they'd help him adjust to raising his brother's two children.
What do you think about the bed being made as if no one slept there at all Saturday night into Sunday morning?
BBMFF I don't know what happened out there in front of 34 Fairview but my common sense needs logic. What caused the behavior of the SUV movements in front of 34 FV and John being hit, then Karen fleeing the scene?
Your bolded sentence above made me curious about alcohol consumption causing or effecting Karen's brain to respond. "once she remembered it wasn't the Waterfall where she said she remembers seeing him last"
Alcohol could possibly explain Karen's strange behavior afterwards that was so unusual and bizarre. Her blood alcohol was between .13 and .29. [That was the reason for her 1st arrest, iirc.] 9 cocktails and she's tiny and apparently was hungry and wanted pizza. Maybe she hadn't eaten much that day. She carried her cocktail from pub to pub. It was in her SUV? Factors such as those when coupled together can make a person experience an alcohol induced blackout.
"Anyone is capable of experiencing an alcohol-related blackout if their blood alcohol concentration reaches roughly 0.16%."
"The signs or symptoms of blackouts can be challenging to identify because people who black out are completely able to partake in complex behaviors. According to the NIAAA, people who black out may engage in conversations, drive automobiles, and perform other behaviors they can recall later–..."
Blackout Drunk: Signs, Causes, and Dangers of Blackout Drinking
Perhaps an alcohol induced blackout explains her inability to speak cohesively. If Karen did experience a blackout the question would be when did it begin? Was it at Waterfall or outside in the car after she heard Bella's name being mentioned?
Her health may have influenced her decision making processes somehow. Either way, how frightening for her.
- Brain lesions caused by MS can disrupt the movement of neural signals, affecting memory processing. Other cognitive functions like attention and concentration may also be impacted.
MOO as always JMHOO
John's arm had a couple of gashes that are too deep for her nails, respectfully, imo. However, Occam's Razor says the arm's injuries happened during the event when he was hit. We haven't seen his sweatshirt yet that will likely align with the marks. Joseph Scott Morgan suggested on NG, iirc, that his hands could have been bruised if John put them up as an automatic reflex to the approaching SUV. Then, the force of the hit, tossed him into the air as often happens when a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle. Somehow, John landed on his back with a deep gash in the back of his head. A couple of places on her vehicle were damaged: a small dent and another was a small spot of chipped paint. John died due to freezing to death during a whiteout.
The life360 app is a nothing now that AM cried but if Lally wants or has the funds, he could call an expert to explain how the app works and why it showed her phone searching for a wifi connection at those times. There's a cell tower at her HS. The D was so pushy she began doubting her own memory. The jury watched it happen.
Since I don't do the Facebook thing, is there another way to find out more? Never mind. I'll look into it, Thx.
MOO
Karen was supposedly back at John's house that night, his ring camera could prove she was or was not, so she may have just went to sleep on a couch in the house as she DID leave him there and may of wanted to be woken as soon as he came in. K said herself she was so drunk per I think J Mc testimony. The blood/alc showed she was. Her mind was a hysterical and frantic wreck for her own reasons to herself, alcohol and I believe the MS and that we've heard it was medically documented, a brain tumor. I don't know how someone with all the alcohol and brain tumor/MS could even start to think and behave in a rational way. Incredibly terrible combination that night. 'I saw the Beatty photo post while perusing sites and it was on Turtleboys, along with other photo's of people involved.
Universecalling
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i hear people question those two calls to Julie. They were around 8 seconds long, I believe.
The narrative is that they are too short to have a conversation.
I beg to differ.
How long does it take to say “they found him”?
There was no need to notify the owners. They already knew.
LvsAMystry
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I don’t think her crying made it nothing, but regardless the very fact the life 360 indicated a reminder for her to connect to Wi-Fi means she was not home. The minute she arrived home it would automatically reconnect, thus not connected means not home.
AppleTreeGreen
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Some things I wonder about from the CW’s memorandum below. The ME states that JO’s skull fractures was a result from an original strike and fracture the back of the head. Does that mean that the CW believe that KR hit JO with her car while his back was turned. How would that explain him being found face-up in the snow though? Wouldn’t he have been more likely to landed face down if struck from behind?
It is also note his shirt and pants were wet from blood and vomit. I wonder why though since the ME stated that JO’s injuries would have unfortunately led him to become incapacitated? If he was laying face up and unable to move his horizontal position wouldn’t the blood and vomit have been more likely to pool into the back of his mouth, his esophagus and lungs? EMTs and KR noted that JO had blood around his mouth and nose but to soak his shirt and pants to make them wet wouldn’t he have been more likely in a vertical position or standing/croaching so that the blood would be more likely to bleed out his nose and thus soak his clothes and to explain how vomit, which is a common choking and asphyxiation hazard for those who are both under the influence and sleeping on their backs, was found on his shirt when, without help, it would have more likely been trapped in his throat or oral cavity?
Also, the prosecution argue that accident reconstruction show that KR drove 60 feet at 20 mph to hit and kill JO with her car. However, iirc a few of the witnesses state they did not see or recall KR’s reverse or hit anyone. Also also as much attention KR’s SUV seemed to get that night, driving 60 feet in reverse IMO would have been noticed by the witnesses, some of who were already confused by her driving choices and parking choices that night. I wonder how the prosecution can explain that oddity?
www.courttv.com
It is also note his shirt and pants were wet from blood and vomit. I wonder why though since the ME stated that JO’s injuries would have unfortunately led him to become incapacitated? If he was laying face up and unable to move his horizontal position wouldn’t the blood and vomit have been more likely to pool into the back of his mouth, his esophagus and lungs? EMTs and KR noted that JO had blood around his mouth and nose but to soak his shirt and pants to make them wet wouldn’t he have been more likely in a vertical position or standing/croaching so that the blood would be more likely to bleed out his nose and thus soak his clothes and to explain how vomit, which is a common choking and asphyxiation hazard for those who are both under the influence and sleeping on their backs, was found on his shirt when, without help, it would have more likely been trapped in his throat or oral cavity?
Also, the prosecution argue that accident reconstruction show that KR drove 60 feet at 20 mph to hit and kill JO with her car. However, iirc a few of the witnesses state they did not see or recall KR’s reverse or hit anyone. Also also as much attention KR’s SUV seemed to get that night, driving 60 feet in reverse IMO would have been noticed by the witnesses, some of who were already confused by her driving choices and parking choices that night. I wonder how the prosecution can explain that oddity?
MA v. Karen Read: Killer or Cover-Up Murder Trial
UPDATE: The trial of Karen Read, accused in the death of her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe, is underway in Massachusetts.
www.courttv.com
I have the same questions, but I can tell you that he was face down. In the 911 call we hear Jen say “they just turned him over” to dispatch.Some things I wonder about from the CW’s memorandum below. The ME states that JO’s skull fractures was a result from an original strike and fracture the back of the head. Does that mean that the CW believe that KR hit JO with her car while his back was turned. How would that explain him being found face-up in the snow though? Wouldn’t he have been more likely to landed face down if struck from behind?
It is also note his shirt and pants were wet from blood and vomit. I wonder why though since the ME stated that JO’s injuries would have unfortunately led him to become incapacitated? If he was laying face up and unable to move his horizontal position wouldn’t the blood and vomit have been more likely to pool into the back of his mouth, his esophagus and lungs? EMTs and KR noted that JO had blood around his mouth and nose but to soak his shirt and pants to make them wet wouldn’t he have been more likely in a vertical position or standing/croaching so that the blood would be more likely to bleed out his nose and thus soak his clothes and to explain how vomit, which is a common choking and asphyxiation hazard for those who are both under the influence and sleeping on their backs, was found on his shirt when, without help, it would have more likely been trapped in his throat or oral cavity?
Also, the prosecution argue that accident reconstruction show that KR drove 60 feet at 20 mph to hit and kill JO with her car. However, iirc a few of the witnesses state they did not see or recall KR’s reverse or hit anyone. Also also as much attention KR’s SUV seemed to get that night, driving 60 feet in reverse IMO would have been noticed by the witnesses, some of who were already confused by her driving choices and parking choices that night. I wonder how the prosecution can explain that oddity?
MA v. Karen Read: Killer or Cover-Up Murder Trial
UPDATE: The trial of Karen Read, accused in the death of her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe, is underway in Massachusetts.
One possibility is that he was able to move into a sitting position after the head injury, but then vomited or possibly had a seizure and vomited on himself before ending up face down.
Charlot123
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Some things I wonder about from the CW’s memorandum below. The ME states that JO’s skull fractures was a result from an original strike and fracture the back of the head. Does that mean that the CW believe that KR hit JO with her car while his back was turned. How would that explain him being found face-up in the snow though? Wouldn’t he have been more likely to landed face down if struck from behind?
It is also note his shirt and pants were wet from blood and vomit. I wonder why though since the ME stated that JO’s injuries would have unfortunately led him to become incapacitated? If he was laying face up and unable to move his horizontal position wouldn’t the blood and vomit have been more likely to pool into the back of his mouth, his esophagus and lungs? EMTs and KR noted that JO had blood around his mouth and nose but to soak his shirt and pants to make them wet wouldn’t he have been more likely in a vertical position or standing/croaching so that the blood would be more likely to bleed out his nose and thus soak his clothes and to explain how vomit, which is a common choking and asphyxiation hazard for those who are both under the influence and sleeping on their backs, was found on his shirt when, without help, it would have more likely been trapped in his throat or oral cavity?
Also, the prosecution argue that accident reconstruction show that KR drove 60 feet at 20 mph to hit and kill JO with her car. However, iirc a few of the witnesses state they did not see or recall KR’s reverse or hit anyone. Also also as much attention KR’s SUV seemed to get that night, driving 60 feet in reverse IMO would have been noticed by the witnesses, some of who were already confused by her driving choices and parking choices that night. I wonder how the prosecution can explain that oddity?
MA v. Karen Read: Killer or Cover-Up Murder Trial
UPDATE: The trial of Karen Read, accused in the death of her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe, is underway in Massachusetts.
The autopsy mentions small skull fractures. I wonder if JO ultimately sustained basal skull trauma. Such traumas can be indirect, as brain is enclosed in a bony structure, so a blow under a chin could cause trauma to the back of the brain, for example.
To me the fractures look like falling from a height on the pavement, but it could be just unfortunate hit that sent a rather heavy man on the ground, head first. Head traumas are often poorly understood because where the impact comes and the main trauma occurs could be two different areas. A distant relative of mine, an old man, was so happy with a tiny moped that his family bought for him. It was like a motorized cart, very slow. Once he swerved it to avoid collision with a child who was running across the street. At a very low speed, he managed to fall, hit his head on the pavement, severe his medulla and never got out of the coma. He was not as muscular as JO but very tall and broad-framed. Essentially, the weight, the height, head against the pavement did the job. I think something like this could have happened here. The precise mechanism can not be clear, he could have slipped on the snow, too. Falls are unpredictable.
AppleTreeGreen
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I am sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing
Anyone else notice below?
JMc said when she, KR and Kerry arrived at JO's, KR showed her and Kerry the tail light. This is where JMc says she could see damage under the snow covering the tail light. Her testimony is pretty extensive and detailed and includes things like Kerry 'rushing' them to get inside. She paints a detailed picture and convincingly (like she believes what she is saying) of the three of them standing at back of lexus near tail light imo.
But what on earth... because the ring surveilance clip of all three of them (which Lally then showed!) getting out of the cars, clearly shows that this never happenned. You see JMc leave drivers side of KA's lexus and go nowhere near either tail light. She heads directly towards the open RHS garage, as does Kerry from car parked directly behind and KR from Lexus passenger side. Noone stops and looks at the tail end of KR's lexus.IMO
Surely Lally cannot have failed to notice that video doesn't match JMc's testimony?? From questions to JMc after showing the footage in full it appears he used it to make a point re the weather?? Maybe the "almost whiteout" conditions JMc had referred to? All jmo.
I agree that JMc came across as sincere but I am cautious about the accuracy of her memories and her own interpretation and emphasis re KR's actions and words.
JMc said when she, KR and Kerry arrived at JO's, KR showed her and Kerry the tail light. This is where JMc says she could see damage under the snow covering the tail light. Her testimony is pretty extensive and detailed and includes things like Kerry 'rushing' them to get inside. She paints a detailed picture and convincingly (like she believes what she is saying) of the three of them standing at back of lexus near tail light imo.
But what on earth... because the ring surveilance clip of all three of them (which Lally then showed!) getting out of the cars, clearly shows that this never happenned. You see JMc leave drivers side of KA's lexus and go nowhere near either tail light. She heads directly towards the open RHS garage, as does Kerry from car parked directly behind and KR from Lexus passenger side. Noone stops and looks at the tail end of KR's lexus.IMO
Surely Lally cannot have failed to notice that video doesn't match JMc's testimony?? From questions to JMc after showing the footage in full it appears he used it to make a point re the weather?? Maybe the "almost whiteout" conditions JMc had referred to? All jmo.
I agree that JMc came across as sincere but I am cautious about the accuracy of her memories and her own interpretation and emphasis re KR's actions and words.
housewife
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Ding ding ding!
JM's story doesn't match the video.
I can't wait until they start discussing all the texts she deleted and how she will try to explain.
JM seemed intense on the stand. Definitely did not like being interrupted. She was very expressive when "imitating" KR's shock and grief.
There's a side gate in fence to the left of house when facing road. Any testimony as to whether it was kept locked? Jmc testified yesterday that it was not unusual that 34 Fairview front door remained unlocked at 6.30am when the whole household was asleep. Could JO have gone through gate perhaps to cool off after an argument in car and encountered Chloe? Some combo of scratched, falls and fractures back of skull. Or slip, fall, fracture scratch maybe. BA would have to have something to do with finding body and moving him I guess so IDK. What time did BA put Chloe out back? This is just an idea and obviously speculation only. Still waiting on testimony re deep looking scratch wounds. Just a speculation.
This is a zoomed in pic from Google StreetView. It's hard to see but to me it looks like a simple latching mechanism and not a lock.
I thought this happened at the scene where they found JO>>
KMouse
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This is the first I have heard of her having a brain tumor. As for the MS, there are different kinds. Relapsing/remitting and progressive. I have the former type and it does not impact my quality of life very much. Everyone is different and MS affects people differently. I think the MS isn't a factor in this at all. KR drinking enough alcohol for a high BAC is the problem. Some people who are more seasoned than others can drink a lot and not show the effects. Happens every day.
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