MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #5

[shotgun09]

IMO, M Proctor is the key to unraveling this mystery who dunnit.

And as the lead investigator, him not taking the stand yet is suspicious. The defense has already raised substantial issues regarding him and the questionable investigation. By Lally stalling the inevitable, it only makes things look worse.

Rumors and talk outside of court, claim that MP will not take the stand, or will plead the 5th if he does. He is considered to be a huge part of the Fed investigation. Regardless, without Proctors testimony, just HOW exactly will the CW get the 45 pieces of tailight into evidence in court? Or JOK's clothing, which was in his possession? Connundrum...

And, WHO exactly was leading this investigation, really?

MOO

 

[calo44]

I just had a thought...is there any proof that JO actually got in KR's car at The Waterfall? We know they walked out together and she reportedly had some hesitance about attending the Albert's home. Is it possible the JO got in someone else's car and she followed at some point later? Might explain her statement of last seeing him at The Waterfall and the testimony of KR being seen in her car alone with the dome light on...possibly waiting for JO to text her that all was well and she was welcome to join. It was JM who told KR that she drove JO to the Albert's home that night. Might also explain why nobody in the house saw him...whatever happened could've happened between the bar and the house and he really didn't make it into the house.

After five threads and 900+ posts I can't remember if there's actual proof that he was in KR's car. My mind was wandering through alternate scenarios.

Julie Nagel's brother (or the guy driving the truck that had Julie's brother in it when they went to pick her up at the Albert's house) said they saw a male in the passenger seat as they were about to turn on Fairview Rd. IDK if he definitively said it was OJO.

 

[TIGER0822]

Did McCabe really say this in testimony?

Key defense target in Karen Read trial says he never saw Read's boyfriend in hours before he was found on lawn

DEDHAM — A key target of the defense took the stand during the Karen Read murder trial Wednesday and testified he never saw Read’s police officer boyfriend hours before he

www.thesunchronicle.com

Testimony on Wednesday turned emotional when McCabe, who took the stand before Colin Albert, dissolved into tears as she recalled how he and her family have been harassed since last year when the defense named Albert as being involved in O’Keefe’s death.
***“Colin wasn’t at the house when John was there.*****


I drove him home so people are harassing him saying he was at the house. It’s not true,” McCabe testified, adding that the harassment was from bloggers and people online.
When asked what kind of harassment she and her family have endured, McCabe began crying and said, “People stopping by our house, emailing my school. Just a lot of harassment.”
When defense lawyer David Yannetti objected to the questions about harassment, Judge Beverly Cannone overruled him saying he had “opened the door” during his cross examination of McCabe.

 

[Seattle1]

Did JO say/text anything at all do 'we' know once he was to have said, 'where to'?

I recall JO texted JM to make inquiry about directions to the Albert house, and JM phoned him in response.

Yannetti then returned to a phone conversation Jennifer McCabe had with O'Keefe as the McCabes were driving to the Albert home on Jan. 28, 2022. O'Keefe had texted Jennifer McCabe asking for directions to the Albert home, and she called O'Keefe to tell give him specific directions.

Watch live: Jennifer McCabe testifies in Karen Read trial

Jennifer McCabe, who's the sister-in-law of the man who owned the home where John O'Keefe's body was found, is took the stand after cross-examination was completed with her husband, Matthew McCabe.

www.nbcboston.com

 

[keek]

I recall JO texted JM to make inquiry about directions to the Albert house, and JM phoned him in response.

Yannetti then returned to a phone conversation Jennifer McCabe had with O'Keefe as the McCabes were driving to the Albert home on Jan. 28, 2022. O'Keefe had texted Jennifer McCabe asking for directions to the Albert home, and she called O'Keefe to tell give him specific directions.

Watch live: Jennifer McCabe testifies in Karen Read trial

Jennifer McCabe, who's the sister-in-law of the man who owned the home where John O'Keefe's body was found, is took the stand after cross-examination was completed with her husband, Matthew McCabe.

www.nbcboston.com

Thank you, sigh, it sounds all so believable. So bizarre.

 

[waldojabba]

I would love to get a pulse of this group.
Are there any posters who were thinking Karen is guilty at the start of the trial and have changed their mind, even slightly?

I live 7 ish miles from the court house so I am local and of course heard about this case as it happened. From what was out there I just assumed drunken night, she hit him- end of story and paid no further attention.
Until I strolled over to this thread and saw the autopsy pics.
I am still waiting for ANYBODY to show me how those injuries are consistent with JR hitting him with her SUV.
Then I read that the fbi says same thing - the injuries are not consistent with being hit with a vehicle. But I have an open mind so I am still waiting to be shown by the P.
And still waiting like what 19 ish days in?
Further - if you watch the trial - and pay attention to the witnesses , it is blatantly obvious - in your face- that the Albert “ circle of trust” is or was up to something.
And if you are from Boston metro and know LE, have family, friends in LE etc etc you understand that there are things that occur that are not on the up and up around these parts. An underbelly or undercurrent if you will. On the daily, as they say. Red solo cups for the blood? A leaf blower - who are these people? Massachusetts weeps.
The more that is revealed it appears that it’s once again the totality of odd coincidences/ that begin to tell a story. And the connections between these people that they initially denied. There is so much - like a “ preponderance” of facts that start to lead you down a path.
There are no winners here as in most cases. Just a lot of imperfect people mostly trying to live a good life for themselves ( legally or illegal or straddling the two) but then something goes awry ( I lean towards the sucker punch theory with no intent to kill just send a message) and then choices are made that get us to where we are now.
Life in a nutshell. The sum of our choices.
So yes my position totally changed.
JMO.

 

[housewife]

The defence has access to all the presented evidence. I think they would be all over a switched shirt or pig dna.

RSBM
Respectfully, this isn't an acceptable fact. Here is a list of court orders, motions, and other paperwork for this case.
Multiple times the Defense requested access to OJO's clothing. They were denied/delayed by the prosecution. I don't see any confirmation the Defense ever received it.

 

[housewife]

There is no telling what was swabbed. And the person who swabbed it did not pass their certification.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the failed cert.

The defense does not have all the access. They’ve asked where Chloe is so that they can test.
They were told they don’t know where she is, yet Coco sat on that stand and told us all she knows exactly where the dog is.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Chloe's location being hidden from the defense and lied about.

 

[Universecalling]

Did McCabe really say this in testimony?

Key defense target in Karen Read trial says he never saw Read's boyfriend in hours before he was found on lawn

DEDHAM — A key target of the defense took the stand during the Karen Read murder trial Wednesday and testified he never saw Read’s police officer boyfriend hours before he

www.thesunchronicle.com

Testimony on Wednesday turned emotional when McCabe, who took the stand before Colin Albert, dissolved into tears as she recalled how he and her family have been harassed since last year when the defense named Albert as being involved in O’Keefe’s death.
***“Colin wasn’t at the house when John was there.*****


I drove him home so people are harassing him saying he was at the house. It’s not true,” McCabe testified, adding that the harassment was from bloggers and people online.
When asked what kind of harassment she and her family have endured, McCabe began crying and said, “People stopping by our house, emailing my school. Just a lot of harassment.”
When defense lawyer David Yannetti objected to the questions about harassment, Judge Beverly Cannone overruled him saying he had “opened the door” during his cross examination of McCabe.

Yes, yes she really said that. And I think someone else slipped like that too.

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

I would love to get a pulse of this group.
Are there any posters who were thinking Karen is guilty at the start of the trial and have changed their mind, even slightly?

Yes - after hearing the basics I assumed she was guilty. I’m a firm believer in Occam’s Razor and don’t go looking for conspiracies. After learning more, I’m not positive what happened to JO but I feel confident KR shouldn’t be convicted on the evidence we’ve seen presented so far.

I keep coming back to one very simple question. If a dead cop was found on your lawn, how do you envision that would go for you? I’m guessing, your experience or mine would be quite different to the one BA was treated to.

 

[Universecalling]

In all honesty, if you don’t watch this trial and all testimonies in their entirety, you may get swayed one way or another by how the articles are written and video excerpts shown.

I’m finding myself forgetting major daily revelations.
I so so hope jurors are taking notes, because if we are forgetting after watching, reading and re-listening… the jurors may be missing major points only bc his trial is dragging and they can’t take their notes w them.
Thanks Lally and Bev Vader.

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

My bug bare is...

can every single...witness....expert.....investigator...council ....be lyin.

RSBM

I don’t think anyone’s really suggesting that. I for one found Teri Kun’s (dog DNA) testimony to be very credible. She’s super highly qualified! Most of us take issue with the quality of the evidence collection.
-We don’t know where the swabs were taken from
-We don’t know when the swabs were taken
-We don’t know what happened to the shirt between the time of death and the time the swabs were taken
-The defense has had difficulty getting access to the clothing to do their own independent testing

These are big issues! Hopefully we’ll learn more when they get to the tech who actually took the swabs.

 

[k-mac]

RSBM
Respectfully, this isn't an acceptable fact. Here is a list of court orders, motions, and other paperwork for this case.
Multiple times the Defense requested access to OJO's clothing. They were denied/delayed by the prosecution. I don't see any confirmation the Defense ever received it.

No confirmation they didn't receive it either.

Agree we are speculating, my point is, no way IMO the defence would have no access to that shirt.

MOO

 

[TIGER0822]

Yes, yes she really said that. And I think someone else slipped like that too.

The Defense have been given a golden nugget!

 

[Seattle1]

I live 7 ish miles from the court house so I am local and of course heard about this case as it happened. From what was out there I just assumed drunken night, she hit him- end of story and paid no further attention.
Until I strolled over to this thread and saw the autopsy pics.
I am still waiting for ANYBODY to show me how those injuries are consistent with JR hitting him with her SUV.
Then I read that the fbi says same thing - the injuries are not consistent with being hit with a vehicle. But I have an open mind so I am still waiting to be shown by the P.
And still waiting like what 19 ish days in?
Further - if you watch the trial - and pay attention to the witnesses , it is blatantly obvious - in your face- that the Albert “ circle of trust” is or was up to something.
And if you are from Boston metro and know LE, have family, friends in LE etc etc you understand that there are things that occur that are not on the up and up around these parts. An underbelly or undercurrent if you will. On the daily, as they say. Red solo cups for the blood? A leaf blower - who are these people? Massachusetts weeps.
The more that is revealed it appears that it’s once again the totality of odd coincidences/ that begin to tell a story. And the connections between these people that they initially denied. There is so much - like a “ preponderance” of facts that start to lead you down a path.
There are no winners here as in most cases. Just a lot of imperfect people mostly trying to live a good life for themselves ( legally or illegal or straddling the two) but then something goes awry ( I lean towards the sucker punch theory with no intent to kill just send a message) and then choices are made that get us to where we are now.
Life in a nutshell. The sum of our choices.
So yes my position totally changed.
JMO.

Thank you @waldojabba for sharing your insight. I've worked in the Boston area on various projects and I too find this case perplexing. And to quote Matt Murphy, "...for an innocent man, there's no reason to lie about anything." Sad. The victim, his extended family, and especially the orphaned children, all deserve answers.

 

[whinewiththegravy]

I have an extremely lay question about one specific part of Jutras’s direct examination that excited some sleuthers here—namely, Lally allowing him to say that the cd he was asked to identify was not the original he arranged to have handed over to state police. This possible error played into the defense’s pre-existing claims about why motion-detection doesn’t explain the gaps they say could clarify what the Lexus taillight looked like after 12:45ish, and therefore: shenanigans.

As is my understanding, most states have pre-trial processes to resolve disputes over whether copies of evidence can be admissible if, in the rare instance, there is a highly credible claim the evidence was altered and no original has been preserved. Since the aforementioned footage has obviously been introduced into evidence by the CW and will possibly be aired in part or whole to the jury and made available to them during deliberations, does this mean any actual dispute has been definitively resolved or can the defense still affirmatively argue during its presentation (not closing/opening) that possible exculpatory evidence was intentionally erased and that the jury can treat the copied copy as compromised by poor chain of custody practices?

More to the point, does the state or its investigators usually ask sources (especially public ones) to preserve originals they have strong reason to believe are subject to sub-30 day purging? I would wager not if this is both permissible and commonplace because it wrongfoots even a very organized, very timely defense. Are all state exhibits (not subject to redaction) its witnesses are asked to identify generally twice removed from the original (in this instance, not the copy made by Patras from footage pulled on his orders but a copy of that copy)? Where would the actual cd handed to Proctor/Dunn be at the moment? What does the court take possession of?

I loathe a sparse burger, but I am keen to know if what I’m being served to eat belongs on the nothing nothing tra la la section of the menu. MOO-COW in more ways than one.

 

[whinewiththegravy]

I doubt they swabbed any discriminating areas!

We seem to be forgetting that the defense knows about the pig results and had a ready made question for the CW’s witness about it: dog food. Opening statement by defense alleges the wounds are scratches (hence the question about the presence/absence of DNA in claws).

 

[ch_13]

I have an extremely lay question about one specific part of Jutras’s direct examination that excited some sleuthers here—namely, Lally allowing him to say that the cd he was asked to identify was not the original he arranged to have handed over to state police. This possible error played into the defense’s pre-existing claims about why motion-detection doesn’t explain the gaps they say could clarify what the Lexus taillight looked like after 12:45ish, and therefore: shenanigans.

As is my understanding, most states have pre-trial processes to resolve disputes over whether copies of evidence can be admissible if, in the rare instance, there is a highly credible claim the evidence was altered and no original has been preserved. Since the aforementioned footage has obviously been introduced into evidence by the CW and will possibly be aired in part or whole to the jury and made available to them during deliberations, does this mean any actual dispute has been definitively resolved or can the defense still affirmatively argue during its presentation (not closing/opening) that possible exculpatory evidence was intentionally erased and that the jury can treat the copied copy as compromised by poor chain of custody practices?

More to the point, does the state or its investigators usually ask sources (especially public ones) to preserve originals they have strong reason to believe are subject to sub-30 day purging? I would wager not if this is both permissible and commonplace because it wrongfoots even a very organized, very timely defense. Are all state exhibits (not subject to redaction) its witnesses are asked to identify generally twice removed from the original (in this instance, not the copy made by Patras from footage pulled on his orders but a copy of that copy)? Where would the actual cd handed to Proctor/Dunn be at the moment? What does the court take possession of?

I loathe a sparse burger, but I am keen to know if what I’m being served to eat belongs on the nothing nothing tra la la section of the menu. MOO-COW in more ways than one.

I wrote about the CD thing previously, but IMO it's just inept lawyering by Lally. I think he was just trying to lay foundation and have the witness say that he had previously seen the videos Lally was going to display on the screen. But Lally failed to adequately prep the witness and the confusing question made the witness think he was asking about the CD that the witness gave to Proctor, not the CD that he previously reviewed with the prosecution team.

As far what happened to the CD that was given to Proctor, that's a very good question. I would think that it would be kept securely in an evidence locker. I'm sure that question (and many others) will be brought up if/when Proctor testifies.

 

[Wishbone]

I have an extremely lay question about one specific part of Jutras’s direct examination that excited some sleuthers here—namely, Lally allowing him to say that the cd he was asked to identify was not the original he arranged to have handed over to state police. This possible error played into the defense’s pre-existing claims about why motion-detection doesn’t explain the gaps they say could clarify what the Lexus taillight looked like after 12:45ish, and therefore: shenanigans.

As is my understanding, most states have pre-trial processes to resolve disputes over whether copies of evidence can be admissible if, in the rare instance, there is a highly credible claim the evidence was altered and no original has been preserved. Since the aforementioned footage has obviously been introduced into evidence by the CW and will possibly be aired in part or whole to the jury and made available to them during deliberations, does this mean any actual dispute has been definitively resolved or can the defense still affirmatively argue during its presentation (not closing/opening) that possible exculpatory evidence was intentionally erased and that the jury can treat the copied copy as compromised by poor chain of custody practices?

More to the point, does the state or its investigators usually ask sources (especially public ones) to preserve originals they have strong reason to believe are subject to sub-30 day purging? I would wager not if this is both permissible and commonplace because it wrongfoots even a very organized, very timely defense. Are all state exhibits (not subject to redaction) its witnesses are asked to identify generally twice removed from the original (in this instance, not the copy made by Patras from footage pulled on his orders but a copy of that copy)? Where would the actual cd handed to Proctor/Dunn be at the moment? What does the court take possession of?

I loathe a sparse burger, but I am keen to know if what I’m being served to eat belongs on the nothing nothing tra la la section of the menu. MOO-COW in more ways than one.

When the defense presents it's case maybe we will have these questions answered.JMO

 

[Wishbone]

I don't know all that much about how this works, but if I search something on my phone and turn off my phone leaving the application open when I turn the phone back on everything I did earlier is gone. In JM's testimony Lally said that at some point after her basketball search she turned her phone off and she agreed. Wouldn't her 2:27 search for dying in the cold be archived at that point and a matter of record. If I leave the application open and don't turn off my phone then it will still be there.
Anybody know what I'm trying to ask? All the talk about tabs being left open and such are confusing because if I turn off my phone with the tab open the thing is gone when I turn it back on and I have to start a new search. Any input would be appreciated. Also, she would have had to turn her phone back on sometime later in the very early morning hours in order to receive a call from KR. Did she sleep at all that night? The part about her turning off her phone is at about 17:15 minutes on this video.