MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #3

[ThinkHard]

Yes. If she were wearing earbuds, the element of a surprise attack would be easier, in theory.
A good reminder to unplug, and stay alert.

It's possible he was a local and stalked her and ambushed her with a surprise element.

But it's also possible that if he was a towny from a good family, and said boy went to the all boy private HS that he could have run in the same social circles with VM and known her.

Meaning I think it's possible she intentionally went for a "walk" to meet up with him.

I certainly don't know her personally but being close in age, growing up in the same area, having moved to NYC myself in my 20's....I also thought it seemed a little funny that a girl in her 20's with a new job and living in a city where there is always something going on...it just seems weird to me that a girl in that position would leave the city every 2 was to spend time with her family.

It's possibly she really was that close to her family, or she wasn't really a fan of NYC.

But just speaking from personal experience the ONLY reason I came home biweekly was when a guy was in the picture. (Regardless of if my parents knew about said guy).

It just seems possible to me that there was more motivating her visits home then just seeing her mom. And if you were seeing someone, a good excuse to say but to them would be by getting out of the house on your run/walk just before catching the bus home.

In my mind I think she routinely met someone for at least the last several months on Sunday afternoons before she left. And in this scenario I think it's possible murder was an accident and the crime scene was staged in a panick to make it look random.

 

[ThinkHard]

The timeline given by LE was between 1:00pm - 3:00pm. Her normal time jogging was about 1 1/2 hrs.
If she was attacked/ambushed when she first left her mothers house, and it was 1`/2 mile away. That gave the perp just under 2 hours to do what he did. The cart road she was found on is on the same side of the road that her moms house is on, meaning if she did get attacked when she first left, she was jogging with the traffic flow, although there was hardly any/no traffic. That road is fairly wide. 2 lane with painted lines, plus a border line painted while with a few feet on each side of that. Point being that if she was jogging against traffic, the perp would have had to cross the road, giving her more of a chance of seeing him, plus taking a chance of traffic seeing him as well, if a car was to drive by, as he would have had to drag/force her across the road.
If she was attacked/ambushed when she was returning on her run, and it was a 1 1/2 hr run, that would have given the perp only 1/2 hours to what he did, if she did the full 1 1/2 hour jog. She would have been jogging against traffic on the same side of the road as the cart road.
To me it makes sense she was jogging with the traffic, seeing as there wasn't much if any, and was attacked when she first left.
There is however one thing that has me thinking that it may have happened when she was returning, and that is her cell phone ping. That happened at about 2:45, which would have been about the time she was right there, give or take a few minutes. Not enough info on that, but I was thinking she may have tried to signal that she was in trouble, but again, not much time for the perp to do everything that he did if that is the case.
Below is a link of the entrance of the cart road. it also will give you an idea of how wide the road is and how exposed he would have been if he did cross the road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.437...4!1swUDhqHyFMGZYhtDdiYpJDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If she were to have run that loop that means Mountain barn would be the half way point from either direction. One way is 3.1 miles the other 3.2, all together making that loop 6.3 miles.

If she left her house at 1:15 as has been reported....and could run 6.3 miles in 1.5 hours, then at 2:25, an 1hr and ten minutes after the start of her run wouldn't she be well past the half way point?

Also it was reported that she left her moms going north. If she were running a loop past the mountain barn that only puts her running past that spot on her way out, not on her way back. If she did go south, then she would only pass that spot once, and it would be on her way home. My point is if she was running past mountain barn, she would have only run last that spot once, making it highly unlikely someone saw her, and waited for her to pas again.

 

[ThinkHard]

When I first looked at this layout the very first thing that came to my mind was a bike. The grass is now mowed along that road right now, but at the time it wasn't. If there was a car/motorcycle parked right there, it would have matted down the grass. the same goes for the cart road, there would have been grass matted.
He could have very easily carried a bike in the woods, leaving no tracks, walked back out, waited for her, did what he did, and carried the bike out, got on and pedaled away.
I would think if he was on a horse, that would have stuck out more than a bike, especially if he had injuries to his face.I think people would have remembered that more. With a bike, he could have had a helmet on and sunglasses covering up a lot of that, especially if he kept his head down while he was pedaling.

What if it was someone who knew her that picked her up in a vehicle. Someone things led to murder somewhere else.....but his property or family property has access to the woods that directly abut that path. Meaning he could have disposed of her body by "going in the back way" leaving her body close enough to the road to look like a random stranger danger, but far enough back so he couldn't be seen from the road.

It would explain tire tracks maybe along the entrance to that path, or even reports of a girl and a slow car and a u turn and then just a car but no girl. Also why the path wouldn't be flattened.

Perhaps people have seen her with this person before and it has to do with some of the tips.

 

[ThinkHard]

Great posts to catch up with, thank you to all the posters.

This will be my convoluted attempt to put down what I'm wondering. ThinkHard, I'm confused on this so expect the same .

There's two ways he could have gone, leaving the cart path and Brook Station Rd, in a car.
One way would have been toward Ball Hill Rd the other would've taken him past Vanessa's parents.
Which ever way he took, he was never picked up on any security cams or by witnesses beyond that point on Brook Station Rd to identify him or his car, or none that LE has so far shared.
So it may be possible, assuming a car is involved with Vanessa's murder, that the perp may live within the range of any and all known security cameras he could have possibly hit, yet unfamiliar enough to locals not to be noticeable?

Ball hill road and her parents house are both in the same direction...south of where she was found. north takes you to the center of town and radford Rd.

Also there aren't any security cameras in the greater area, there would be quite a radius with no businesses at all and most people don't have security cameras on their homes.

 

[Michigan]

great sleuthing. you now have me convinced that they hopefully have DNA which would be amazing news! if it is a local and they have DNA, i believe they will eventually catch him.

i'm leaning towards him waiting on the cart path for her and the crime occurring there. but i've been thinking about other ways LE could know about a car (i think they have a witness)....what about if they found fiber evidence on the body? perhaps fiber consistent with car carpet. just a thought.

regarding the mountain barn restaurant. could perp have been someone who works at that restaurant so their car would not have been suspicious there? could her phone have gone there with the perp but she did not? (he committed crime on foot then walked back to his waiting car at the restaurant). that could explain the timing. all speculation.

all JMO.

 

[Inthedetails]

great sleuthing. you now have me convinced that they hopefully have DNA which would be amazing news! if it is a local and they have DNA, i believe they will eventually catch him.

i'm leaning towards him waiting on the cart path for her and the crime occurring there. but i've been thinking about other ways LE could know about a car (i think they have a witness)....what about if they found fiber evidence on the body? perhaps fiber consistent with car carpet. just a thought.

regarding the mountain barn restaurant. could perp have been someone who works at that restaurant so their car would not have been suspicious there? could her phone have gone there with the perp but she did not? (he committed crime on foot then walked back to his waiting car at the restaurant). that could explain the timing. all speculation.

all JMO.

BBM

Excellent point. I have been thinking only of car tracks or witness sighting, but there could be other types evidence that points to a car. Thanks.

jmo

 

[ThinkHard]

great sleuthing. you now have me convinced that they hopefully have DNA which would be amazing news! if it is a local and they have DNA, i believe they will eventually catch him.

i'm leaning towards him waiting on the cart path for her and the crime occurring there. but i've been thinking about other ways LE could know about a car (i think they have a witness)....what about if they found fiber evidence on the body? perhaps fiber consistent with car carpet. just a thought.

regarding the mountain barn restaurant. could perp have been someone who works at that restaurant so their car would not have been suspicious there? could her phone have gone there with the perp but she did not? (he committed crime on foot then walked back to his waiting car at the restaurant). that could explain the timing. all speculation.

all JMO.

Could be. If it were an accidental murder and she was in his car, it's possible whe he dumped the body he found the cell phone after and disposed of it by smashing it somewhere near the mnt barn. The
"Ping" could perhaps be the last known location before it was powered off or destroyed.

 

[angelainwi]

New video shows slain jogger Karina Vetrano moments before her death in Howard Beach

http://pix11.com/2016/09/12/new-pho...-karina-vetrano-moments-before-her-death/amp/

 

[FindHG]

That to me is a hard question to answer. I think it would depend on where he was trying to get to.
The thought had crossed my mind that maybe he had a car/truck parked someplace like the Mountain Barn, and if he did have a bike, rode there, loaded his bike and got of there, but I am thinking more in line with Rose, he was a watcher, and had been watching for a while. Hard to do unless you live somewhat nearby.

I agree with you both, completely. The perp may have previously approached this spot in more ways than one.

great sleuthing. you now have me convinced that they hopefully have DNA which would be amazing news! if it is a local and they have DNA, i believe they will eventually catch him.

i'm leaning towards him waiting on the cart path for her and the crime occurring there. but i've been thinking about other ways LE could know about a car (i think they have a witness)....what about if they found fiber evidence on the body? perhaps fiber consistent with car carpet. just a thought.

regarding the mountain barn restaurant. could perp have been someone who works at that restaurant so their car would not have been suspicious there? could her phone have gone there with the perp but she did not? (he committed crime on foot then walked back to his waiting car at the restaurant). that could explain the timing. all speculation.

all JMO.

Michigan, I agree with you, this thread benefits from very informative input from people familiar with the area, which means everything, it seems to me, to making sense of things. Thank you for pitching in.

IIRC, it was reported in MSM that the Barn was the first place Vanessa's folks checked. Since then, dogs have been used in searches and DNA samples may have been collected as needed to eliminate false leads, it seems possible. Where you were leaning makes perfect sense though: that area around the Barn may have had something to do with how the perp planned is escape.

Thank you, TH, for setting me straight on directions and for your patience.

 

[Rocky1]

If she were to have run that loop that means Mountain barn would be the half way point from either direction. One way is 3.1 miles the other 3.2, all together making that loop 6.3 miles.

If she left her house at 1:15 as has been reported....and could run 6.3 miles in 1.5 hours, then at 2:25, an 1hr and ten minutes after the start of her run wouldn't she be well past the half way point?

Also it was reported that she left her moms going north. If she were running a loop past the mountain barn that only puts her running past that spot on her way out, not on her way back. If she did go south, then she would only pass that spot once, and it would be on her way home. My point is if she was running past mountain barn, she would have only run last that spot once, making it highly unlikely someone saw her, and waited for her to pas again.

Yes you are right if that was her routine. I didn't put her running the loop past the Mountain Barn. I was thinking she ran north for 45 min or so, turned around and ran the same way back. I know there was a ping off the tower near the Mountain Barn, but I was thinking that happened because that was the closest tower.
Using your theory, yes she would have only passed the cart road once, and if she was ambushed, I think it was when she first left her moms. The timeline seems to fit better.

 

[Rocky1]

What if it was someone who knew her that picked her up in a vehicle. Someone things led to murder somewhere else.....but his property or family property has access to the woods that directly abut that path. Meaning he could have disposed of her body by "going in the back way" leaving her body close enough to the road to look like a random stranger danger, but far enough back so he couldn't be seen from the road.

It would explain tire tracks maybe along the entrance to that path, or even reports of a girl and a slow car and a u turn and then just a car but no girl. Also why the path wouldn't be flattened.

Perhaps people have seen her with this person before and it has to do with some of the tips.

Could be, but I don't know why he would bring the body back connecting her to his/his family property, if he murdered her someplace else. I would think that LE questioned anybody that had anything to do with that property, or property surrounding, and if so, wouldn't they have seen cuts and bruises?
If he went in the back way, why the tire tracks along the entrance on Brook Station Road?
The timeline also has me thinking. He would have had to drive someplace, murder her, drive back, and do the rest of what he did, all in 1:45 - 2 hours.
You could very well be right, but to me, the ambush theory makes more sense.

 

[ThinkHard]

Could be, but I don't know why he would bring the body back connecting her to his/his family property, if he murdered her someplace else. I would think that LE questioned anybody that had anything to do with that property, or property surrounding, and if so, wouldn't they have seen cuts and bruises?
If he went in the back way, why the tire tracks along the entrance on Brook Station Road?
The timeline also has me thinking. He would have had to drive someplace, murder her, drive back, and do the rest of what he did, all in 1:45 - 2 hours.
You could very well be right, but to me, the ambush theory makes more sense.

There could just have been tire tracks along the side of the entrance to the cart path indicating he pulled over and picked her up rather then down the path itself.

Regarding why that spot, perhaps partly because he knew felt remorse and knew she would be found there, but more likely so he could stage it to look more like a random stranger crime then like a known assailant. If he brings her back to a spot along her running route it lends credence to this theory. If he had access to that spot without having to access a main road it keeps his visibility down, and gives him more time to leave her there with his tracks covered.

In sure LE dos go around and ask people at houses, and who's to say they aren't still interested in one or more of those people. It's possible they did see scratches on someone that day, or it's possible it was a home owners son who happen to be away from the house at a local pond when the police came around to question the family.

Who knows just because we don't have that knowledge doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Rocky1]

There could just have been tire tracks along the side of the entrance to the cart path indicating he pulled over and picked her up rather then down the path itself.

Regarding why that spot, perhaps partly because he knew felt remorse and knew she would be found there, but more likely so he could stage it to look more like a random stranger crime then like a known assailant. If he brings her back to a spot along her running route it lends credence to this theory. If he had access to that spot without having to access a main road it keeps his visibility down, and gives him more time to leave her there with his tracks covered.

In sure LE dos go around and ask people at houses, and who's to say they aren't still interested in one or more of those people. It's possible they did see scratches on someone that day, or it's possible it was a home owners son who happen to be away from the house at a local pond when the police came around to question the family.

Who knows just because we don't have that knowledge doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

True, they may very well have that knowledge.
I could be wrong, but I just don't see a 27 year old keeping a secret boyfriend and not sharing with her parents. If she did have contact with someone that she knew, and had a plan to meet him, there should be a record of a conversation taking place on her phone.
If this homeowner had a son that was at a local pond, would it be fair to say that this son would be much younger than VM?

 

[DatelineFan]

True, they may very well have that knowledge.
I could be wrong, but I just don't see a 27 year old keeping a secret boyfriend and not sharing with her parents. If she did have contact with someone that she knew, and had a plan to meet him, there should be a record of a conversation taking place on her phone.
If this homeowner had a son that was at a local pond, would it be fair to say that this son would be much younger than VM?

I think she could have not told her parents, but there would be evidence in her phone logs, and at least a friend would know.

At this age, my best friend was an attorney in NYC. She went home every weekend she could, just because it was her personality. She preferred to leave the city when it was possible.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

 

[Rocky1]

Just to add. Some think that she was followed from the mountain barn, and that may be true but..
If she left her moms heading north, turned right on Rt 31 to the mountain barn, and was spotted and followed, that means she had to turn around and run back the same way she came, because if she continued past the mountain barn south, then turned on Ball Hill Rd, she would been back to her moms before she ran past the cart road again. Still a 6+ mile run and the timeline doesn't leave much time to do what he did.
Also, if she did continue south past the mountain barn, there is Barre Savings Bank, with a drive through window, and a cam pointing towards the road. Being Sunday, I am not sure if it was turned on, but I would lean more towards it was.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.421...4!1s5FNH3kx17tvum4_LqtsRJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The drive through looks set back in the picture, but if you use the cars as a guide, it looks like it's only 6 or 7 cars deep from the road.

 

[ThinkHard]

True, they may very well have that knowledge.
I could be wrong, but I just don't see a 27 year old keeping a secret boyfriend and not sharing with her parents. If she did have contact with someone that she knew, and had a plan to meet him, there should be a record of a conversation taking place on her phone.
If this homeowner had a son that was at a local pond, would it be fair to say that this son would be much younger than VM?

No the son would be about the same age as VM. Not sure why you think he'd be younger.

Also most 27 year olds don't tell there parents about developing relationships and often don't share about relationships with the parents until they become "official" as in its time to meet the parents.

As someone close to her demographic and knowing a lot of 20 somethings currently living in the city, I just don't think it would be remotely shocking to learn she didn't tell her parents every detail of her life.

Regarding records there certainly could be, and LE could know if this....just because we don't, doesn't mean they don't. Try might already know who was with her that day, and suspect him as the perp, yet not have enough evidence to prove he committed a crime.

 

[Rocky1]

No the son would be about the same age as VM. Not sure why you think he'd be younger.

Also most 27 year olds don't tell there parents about developing relationships and often don't share about relationships with the parents until they become "official" as in its time to meet the parents.

As someone close to her demographic and knowing a lot of 20 somethings currently living in the city, I just don't think it would be remotely shocking to learn she didn't tell her parents every detail of her life.

Regarding records there certainly could be, and LE could know if this....just because we don't, doesn't mean they don't. Try might already know who was with her that day, and suspect him as the perp, yet not have enough evidence to prove he committed a crime.

I wasn't thinking one way or the other about the sons age, I asked because it appears to me that you have someone in mind.
I wouldn't expect a 20 something to share every detail with their parents either. but I also wouldn't expect them to keep it a secret . She may have/may not have mentioned if she was going to meet someone. Her father seemed quite certain that she wasn't romantically involved.
Being an only child, and where it was said that her father beemed every time he talked about her, made me think they were very close. They took many vacations together even at her age, so it wouldn't surprise me if they shared many things, and were open with each other.

 

[ThinkHard]

I wasn't thinking one way or the other about the sons age, I asked because it appears to me that you have someone in mind.
I wouldn't expect a 20 something to share every detail with their parents either. but I also wouldn't expect them to keep it a secret . She may have/may not have mentioned if she was going to meet someone. Her father seemed quite certain that she wasn't romantically involved.
Being an only child, and where it was said that her father beemed every time he talked about her, made me think they were very close. They took many vacations together even at her age, so it wouldn't surprise me if they shared many things, and were open with each other.

You can be an only child with a close relationship with your parents and still not tell them everything, trust me on that one.

 

[Rocky1]

You can be an only child with a close relationship with your parents and still not tell them everything, trust me on that one.

True, and you can be an only child and tell them everything. Either way, it's just a hunch.

 

[rosesfromangels]

i think who one is dating is a pretty common discussion topic, and generally of much interest to most parents. Even more so if you are approaching the "tick-tock" milestone of 30.