MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #3

[Mskin]

But how would that guy know she was only five minutes into her run?

The guy was a helper and was just trying to be helpful. What's sad is that we are so I used to people not being helpful and just genuinely kind to strangers that we assume people have an alterior motive.

I can think of two time recently that I declined being helpful because of fear of how it might be perceived. One was at the grocery store. We have an autistic man that lives in our neighborhood. I saw him at the grocery store waiting and waiting on a bench, I so wanted to offer him a ride, but I didn't want to spook him. The second time was one a sudden summer storm started down pouring. I looked out the window and saw a teenager trying to stay dry by hiding in bushes across the street. I said to my husband, we should let him in...but my husband was like "we're not letting someone we don't know in our house" and then I kept pushing saying well let's open the garage for him? (But a car ended up coming and picking him up shortly after)

The point is, I think it's sad that our fears prohibit the level of kindness we extend to others.

I run 4-5 times a week for 20+ years. Never once has someone stopped to offer up water.

My point of noting she was only 5 minutes in was that she probably wasn't looking fatigued or dehydrated. You might see someone, like me, on the last leg of a run and think "my God you look like hell". And maybe perhaps offer them water. I'm over thinking and speculating - mostly sad and dissapointed. I have a wife and two daughters. It's not fair that I can go running through the woods with my earbuds in and eyes closed not worrying about a thing. My wife wakes up and runs at 5 in the morning. I can't sleep or feel relaxed until she comes home through the door. I want my girls to feel safe. I want to believe my girls are safe. I want this guy caught so badly. The entire community is terrorized and no one knows anything the cops know. It's frustrating.


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[ThinkHard]

I run 4-5 times a week for 20+ years. Never once has someone stopped to offer up water.

My point of noting she was only 5 minutes in was that she probably wasn't looking fatigued or dehydrated. You might see someone, like me, on the last leg of a run and think "my God you look like hell". And maybe perhaps offer them water. I'm over thinking and speculating - mostly sad and dissapointed. I have a wife and two daughters. It's not fair that I can go running through the woods with my earbuds in and eyes closed not worrying about a thing. My wife wakes up and runs at 5 in the morning. I can't sleep or feel relaxed until she comes home through the door. I want my girls to feel safe. I want to believe my girls are safe. I want this guy caught so badly. The entire community is terrorized and no one knows anything the cops know. It's frustrating.


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I probably shouldn't assume this, but since you mentioned a wife and children, I'm guessing you are male?

I thin it's different with males because most males look at other males like they can take care of themselves. Women often look weak to men and thus they any to "care" for them.

My point is that it's much more likely someone would stop a female and offer them help or water, then it is likely they would stop and offer a male help or water.

So while I certainly believe your experience holds true, it also doesn't surprise me that would be your experience as a male (if you are male, though I don't want to assume that just because you mentioned a wife means your male).

However I don't think ones experience as a male going through life or as a runner is directly comparable to a women's experience going through life or on a run.

 

[Mskin]

I probably shouldn't assume this, but since you mentioned a wife and children, I'm guessing you are male?

I thin it's different with males because most males look at other males like they can take care of themselves. Women often look weak to men and thus they any to "care" for them.

My point is that it's much more likely someone would stop a female and offer them help or water, then it is likely they would stop and offer a male help or water.

So while I certainly believe your experience holds true, it also doesn't surprise me that would be your experience as a male (if you are male, though I don't want to assume that just because you mentioned a wife means your male).

However I don't think ones experience as a male going through life or as a runner is directly comparable to a women's experience going through life or on a run.

I can agree with you on all accounts. It's difficult to put myself in a womans shoes. I remember as a kid, my sister was a very Competative runner. I would ride my bike with her for her longer runs. The "cat" calls were sick. It was obvious to me as a kid that men and women live in separate worlds.


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[Kateinfl]

Welcome!

Just a couple of questions? Did the above incidents take place in the wachusett district (i.e. Holden, Paxton, Princeton, Rutland, Sterling)?

Also secondly to your point of in order for someone to get that close to you, they'd either have to stun you or know you.....

It's kind of the main reason I think she knew her attacker. I think it's one of the few ways he could have gotten her alone and vulnerable. (I still feel like the crime scene was staged)

If he posed as another jogger running toward her to pass he would have gotten close enough to grab her. Other walkers and runners pass me all the time and i never think anything about that.

 

[ThinkHard]

If he posed as another jogger running toward her to pass he would have gotten close enough to grab her. Other walkers and runners pass me all the time and i never think anything about that.

That's not really what I was getting at. I meant that more in reference to the previous poster who said if she had a feeling about someone she wouldn't let them close a bough to grab her. While the above is certainly possible, i also believe that Vanessa probably also had a similar sixth sense in terms of avoiding people or getting away of someone felt wrong. She was living in the city and this sense of awareness seems to becomes part of what you develop and carry with you the rest of your life, even at home...its just a heighten awareness of your vulnerability at any given time.

Of course we don't know what happened to her, but at least in my mind, I think there is a high probability that the reason this attacker got so close to her, was because her guard wasn't up, and the stronger reason for your guard being up is that you know the person your with and you aren't aware your in danger.

I recognize that there are many many scenarios. It's just as things stand right now, that feels the most likely to me. I am on the fence though as to wether he planned to kill her, or it was an accident. Either way I'm pretty sure the crime scene was staged to "throw off the scent".

 

[donttt]

both of those incidents happened to me in holden.

i can see how it could have been someone who knows her, especially if they are from princeton, and often see her on her runs on the sundays she is home. to me this makes a lot of sense. it seems like it could be someone in town that she dosen't really know, but is familiar enough with to not want to be rude and run away from them. but i don't know vanessa or what was going on in her life well enough to determine if it could have been someone who wanted her dead and set up this whole thing to look like a stranger murder. hopefully if that is the case (sadly, a lot of us around here hope it is), the police already have their eye out on people in her life that could have motive to do this.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

I don't pay attention to people's age as a threat. For me it's more of a gut instinct thing....but even more so for me it's about recognizing my vulnerability....i.e. Is anyone else around, where are my exit points, could I get away if I needed to, would someone hear me scream?

There have been exactly 3 times in my life I've been afraid that I would become the victim of violence.

Once walking from Greenwich village to Washington square park with my BF at about 11 at night on a Saturday, and we took a cut through. As we were walking down the sidewalk we saw a group of about 4 guys ahead. I saw them look in our direction say something to each other and then two moved so they were standing against the building....meaning of we staying on that side walk we would have to walk through them with two on each side....my gut told me they would jump as as soon as we got in btw them.....without speaking my BF and I both instinctively switched to the other side of the street and picked up our pace.

The second time I was getting off a bus at 10 at night. There was a guy standing across the street from the bus stop. I started walking toward home and I saw him cross the street and start walking behind me. I picked up my pace, so did he....I started to cross the street....so did he....there was a median in the road and my thought was please have a taxi drive by PLEASE!!! Just as one did and I flagged it down, I felt his hand touch my arm and I thew myself in the street to stop the taxi and climbed inside.

The third time I was walking home alone at night and an old man tried to give me a ride home, I kept tell him no thank you and to go away, but he kept trying to tell me to get in and it wasn't safe for me to be walking alone....perhaps he was really just trying to be an nice old man....BUT I was also in a foreign country and though we could mostly understand each other, it was limited.....and I knew outside his car I could still run....but you get in someone's car and realize they are intent on harming you, it's too late and you've made yourself entirely too vulnerable.

I agree. So many factors go in to whether I feel a threat. I've actually started carrying a pocket knife with me and also in the side door of my car. Just in case.

I've only had one scary time. I was in college and had parked to walk to campus. I saw a man approaching as I was in my car and I rolled down the window, as he looked like he needed help. He was mexican and I parked right beside our mexican restaurant, so I assumed he worked there. he asked where something was and I told him. Then turned into my car to grab my books. When I turned around, he was almost on top of me in my car. I pushed him off and he said "just one kiss, please baby." I said no and pushed him out of the way and ran to my aunts day care (I parked in their back lot). I called the police. Nothing happened. Not even a statement. Honestly, I didn't even feel threatened. At the time, I felt sorry for him. I didn't know if maybe there were cultural differences I wasn't aware of. But he didn't "push" the issue when I said no. And he said please. Which was so odd. Now I just wonder what in the hell he was thinking. I was 19.

Another time, I was waitressing and had a customer with a dead car battery waiting for a mechanic. I waited on him and chatted. When I left work that day, I had a note on my car that said "my fortune (it was a Chinese restaurant) said I was quiet and unobtrusive..." And then something about meeting him "in the back of big lots parking lot after work." The lot he referenced was secluded. And an odd suggestion considering the multitude of close, public options. I didn't go, needless to say.

But what are these guys thinking? Are they that removed from the female experience that they don't see the creepiness??

 

[ThinkHard]

both of those incidents happened to me in holden.

i can see how it could have been someone who knows her, especially if they are from princeton, and often see her on her runs on the sundays she is home. to me this makes a lot of sense. it seems like it could be someone in town that she dosen't really know, but is familiar enough with to not want to be rude and run away from them. but i don't know vanessa or what was going on in her life well enough to determine if it could have been someone who wanted her dead and set up this whole thing to look like a stranger murder. hopefully if that is the case (sadly, a lot of us around here hope it is), the police already have their eye out on people in her life that could have motive to do this.

Doesn't it creep you out though that it could be a wachusett kid? I know it creeps me out!

By no means am I calling Princeton creepy (I actually love it) but the two people who I have ever actually been somewhat creeped out by from HS both HAPPEN to be from Princeton.

 

[FindHG]

both of those incidents happened to me in holden.

i can see how it could have been someone who knows her, especially if they are from princeton, and often see her on her runs on the sundays she is home. to me this makes a lot of sense. it seems like it could be someone in town that she dosen't really know, but is familiar enough with to not want to be rude and run away from them. but i don't know vanessa or what was going on in her life well enough to determine if it could have been someone who wanted her dead and set up this whole thing to look like a stranger murder. hopefully if that is the case (sadly, a lot of us around here hope it is), the police already have their eye out on people in her life that could have motive to do this.

In the absence of more new information, if LE had a POI in sight, then one could assume as you suggest or not, it seems to me.

Given the sense of fear apparent, the caution shown in investigating all incidents reported, would it be safe to think that at this point?

Hopefully LE will provide an update as the investigation makes progress.

Over 800 tips for Vanessa compared to about 90 tips for Karina, considering the population densities in the area of each crime may say something?

 

[donttt]

Doesn't it creep you out though that it could be a wachusett kid? I know it creeps me out!

By no means am I calling Princeton creepy (I actually love it) but the two people who I have ever actually been somewhat creeped out by from HS both HAPPEN to be from Princeton.

ThinkHard, that definitely creeps me out! it's difficult just being around the area with this on my mind and not looking at everyone suspiciously. like maybe i can solve it by the look in someone's eyes ha.

 

[kirus]

It's funny because the only person I know from Princeton is heavy into the occult and claims to talk to dead people.

 

[FindHG]

Watertown police see no link between jogging incident and Princeton murder
By Dylan McGuinness, Boston Globe
9 2 16


“At this point we do not have any reason to believe that the Watertown incident is in any way related to the Vanessa Marcotte case in Princeton,” Lieutenant James O’Connor wrote in an e-mail. “We are continuing our investigation, but do not feel there is a link.”

 

[Safeguard]

Couple thoughts...

I'm a woman, and I would never offer water, or interject myself, in any way, with someone's run. Runners have their own rhythm and routine. Every runner I have ever passed by, have been intent on their run. I rarely even say hello, unless they say it first, as they are usually looking very focused on the run. To interrupt, a runner, for any reason, is poor form and just un called for. Imo. ( Someone sitting curbside, looking distressed, might be a different story).

I used to run alone at 7pm, as this was the only time my scedual afforded. I ran on a designated path, that was three quarters of a mile around a cemetery. Not dark when I started my run, but getting there by the time I was heading home. One evening a car with a one headlight out, slowed down and followed me on my run, all the way around the loop. It was very scary. So much so that I left early, ran across the street to the 24hour Cumberland Farms and bought a large black coffee to carry with me on my walk home. Since they don't sell Mace, at Cumbies, I thought scalding coffee might work as an alternative.

I hate that I had to think that way. I hate that I made my way home clutching that pathetic 'weapon' and I never ran alone again after that, ( I asked my neighbor if I could borrow his dog for my runs, he expressed an interest in running with me, so after that, The three of us ran.

I do think it's a much more risky endeavor for woman to run alone, than it is for a guy.

I remember, when I was about twenty yrs old, I was in a car, with some friends, on a glorious summer day... passed a male jogger who had the best legs I'd ever seen. I put my thumb and finger against my lower lip, let out a wolf whistle, and then yelled, "NICE LEGS!" The jogger turned and ran backwards for a sec, with a huge smile on his face, and called back, "Thank YOU!!!" He took it as the complement that it was, and it made him feel good. He did not have to worry about ill intent.

I would never do such a thing in today's times. In many ways, there was an innocence back then that is definitely lost to us now.

 

[ThinkHard]

Couple thoughts...

I'm a woman, and I would never offer water, or interject myself, in any way, with someone's run. Runners have their own rhythm and routine. Every runner I have ever passed by, have been intent on their run. I rarely even say hello, unless they say it first, as they are usually looking very focused on the run. To interrupt, a runner, for any reason, is poor form and just un called for. Imo. ( Someone sitting curbside, looking distressed, might be a different story).

I used to run alone at 7pm, as this was the only time my scedual afforded. I ran on a designated path, that was three quarters of a mile around a cemetery. Not dark when I started my run, but getting there by the time I was heading home. One evening a car with a one headlight out, slowed down and followed me on my run, all the way around the loop. It was very scary. So much so that I left early, ran across the street to the 24hour Cumberland Farms and bought a large black coffee to carry with me on my walk home. Since they don't sell Mace, at Cumbies, I thought scalding coffee might work as an alternative.

I hate that I had to think that way. I hate that I made my way home clutching that pathetic 'weapon' and I never ran alone again after that, ( I asked my neighbor if I could borrow his dog for my runs, he expressed an interest in running with me, so after that, The three of us ran.

I do think it's a much more risky endeavor for woman to run alone, than it is for a guy. I remember, when I was about twenty yrs old, I was in a car, with some friends, on a glorious summer day... passed a male jogger who had the best legs I'd ever seen. I put my thumb and finger against my lower lip, let out a wolf whistle, and then yelled, "NICE LEGS!" The jogger turned and ran backwards for a sec, with a huge smile on his face, and called back, "Thank YOU!!!" He took it as the complement that it was, and it made him feel good. He did not have to worry about ill intent.

I would never do such a thing in today's times. There was an innocence back then that is definitely lost to us now.

As a runner that runners code must be very obvious to you...understanding the rhythms and how focused they are etc.

But to a non runner I can see those cues being less obvious, and I can see someone innocently trying to be helpful.

 

[FindHG]

As a runner that runners code must be very obvious to you...understanding the rhythms and how focused they are etc.

But to a non runner I can see those cues being less obvious, and I can see someone innocently trying to be helpful.

About the rhythms, ThinkHard, that's why I think cycler's are more likely to notice and note odd stuff compared to runners, especially odd cars.

 

[Safeguard]

As a runner that runners code must be very obvious to you...understanding the rhythms and how focused they are etc.

But to a non runner I can see those cues being less obvious, and I can see someone innocently trying to be helpful.

I don't know. to me it's just common sense. You wouldn't interrupt a swimmer on a swim, or a rock climber on a climb ect... why would you interrupt a runner on a run?

 

[ThinkHard]

About the rhythms, ThinkHard, that's why I think cycler's are more likely to notice and note odd stuff compared to runners, especially odd cars.

I don't think there would be too many cyclers on that road though.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't know. to me it's just common sense. You wouldn't interrupt a swimmer on a swim, or a rock climber on a climb ect... why would you interrupt a runner on a run?

Umm in not seeing the comparison....when some people run or walk some people do it in groups or pairs specifically because you can still hear people when you are standing, running, or waking next to them....therefor it's more instinctual to speak to them....or ask for directions, offer water....

But you would never see two swimmers having a conversation swimming side by side, because you can't actually talk in between breaths....since you can't really have a conversation when your swimming obviously know ones gonna strike up a conversation in the middle of laps.

If someone is rock climbing there high up, and you not going to shout to them.

So I don't really see how those things are caparable.

 

[carbuff]

Couple thoughts...

I'm a woman, and I would never offer water, or interject myself, in any way, with someone's run. Runners have their own rhythm and routine. Every runner I have ever passed by, have been intent on their run. I rarely even say hello, unless they say it first, as they are usually looking very focused on the run. To interrupt, a runner, for any reason, is poor form and just un called for. Imo. ( Someone sitting curbside, looking distressed, might be a different story).

I used to run alone at 7pm, as this was the only time my scedual afforded. I ran on a designated path, that was three quarters of a mile around a cemetery. Not dark when I started my run, but getting there by the time I was heading home. One evening a car with a one headlight out, slowed down and followed me on my run, all the way around the loop. It was very scary. So much so that I left early, ran across the street to the 24hour Cumberland Farms and bought a large black coffee to carry with me on my walk home. Since they don't sell Mace, at Cumbies, I thought scalding coffee might work as an alternative.

I hate that I had to think that way. I hate that I made my way home clutching that pathetic 'weapon' and I never ran alone again after that, ( I asked my neighbor if I could borrow his dog for my runs, he expressed an interest in running with me, so after that, The three of us ran.

I do think it's a much more risky endeavor for woman to run alone, than it is for a guy.

I remember, when I was about twenty yrs old, I was in a car, with some friends, on a glorious summer day... passed a male jogger who had the best legs I'd ever seen. I put my thumb and finger against my lower lip, let out a wolf whistle, and then yelled, "NICE LEGS!" The jogger turned and ran backwards for a sec, with a huge smile on his face, and called back, "Thank YOU!!!" He took it as the complement that it was, and it made him feel good. He did not have to worry about ill intent.

I would never do such a thing in today's times. In many ways, there was an innocence back then that is definitely lost to us now.

I did fend off a sexual assault once with scalding coffee. Spilled it right on his crotch when he tried to cop a feel at the coffee station at work. I mean, I was startled, right?



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[Mskin]

Couple thoughts...

I'm a woman, and I would never offer water, or interject myself, in any way, with someone's run. Runners have their own rhythm and routine. Every runner I have ever passed by, have been intent on their run. I rarely even say hello, unless they say it first, as they are usually looking very focused on the run. To interrupt, a runner, for any reason, is poor form and just un called for. Imo. ( Someone sitting curbside, looking distressed, might be a different story).

I used to run alone at 7pm, as this was the only time my scedual afforded. I ran on a designated path, that was three quarters of a mile around a cemetery. Not dark when I started my run, but getting there by the time I was heading home. One evening a car with a one headlight out, slowed down and followed me on my run, all the way around the loop. It was very scary. So much so that I left early, ran across the street to the 24hour Cumberland Farms and bought a large black coffee to carry with me on my walk home. Since they don't sell Mace, at Cumbies, I thought scalding coffee might work as an alternative.

I hate that I had to think that way. I hate that I made my way home clutching that pathetic 'weapon' and I never ran alone again after that, ( I asked my neighbor if I could borrow his dog for my runs, he expressed an interest in running with me, so after that, The three of us ran.

I do think it's a much more risky endeavor for woman to run alone, than it is for a guy.

I remember, when I was about twenty yrs old, I was in a car, with some friends, on a glorious summer day... passed a male jogger who had the best legs I'd ever seen. I put my thumb and finger against my lower lip, let out a wolf whistle, and then yelled, "NICE LEGS!" The jogger turned and ran backwards for a sec, with a huge smile on his face, and called back, "Thank YOU!!!" He took it as the complement that it was, and it made him feel good. He did not have to worry about ill intent.

I would never do such a thing in today's times. In many ways, there was an innocence back then that is definitely lost to us now.

Great post.

You just don't mess with a runner on a run.


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