MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #3

[femalejogger]

35 plus years of running for me - in hot climates around the world - and no offers of water either. In fact, I am rarely approached at all while jogging (though I often get stopped for directions when out walking). I could definitely see how the woman in Shirley would have been freaked out by that van, especially in light of what happened in Princeton.

That said, I think there are much more subtle ways a potential attacker could get close to a victim. If you walk or jog at the same time in the same location you are going to routinely see the same people and you are going to develop some level of comfort with them. Similarly, as Kateinfl pointed out, another jogger isn't likely to raise any suspicion and could easily get close enough to do harm. Same with a dog walker or someone with a child. Though we would all like to think we would be wary enough, alert enough, suspicious enough, etc to ward off an attack, the reality is that our basic manners and decency are probably going to kick in when approached by someone who appears normal and we are not going to start screaming, running, or fighting someone until the danger is obvious and it may be too late. And even if the person is a bit sketchy, we will likely hesitate to sound an alarm for fear of embarrassing or insulting the other person. If a stray dog runs up to me, I won't hesitate to scream, but if a fellow human politely approaches me, I will likely let them get close enough that they could act nefariously if they chose.

 

[femalejogger]

A little levity to start the holiday weekend: My greatest scare occurred a couple of years ago. It was a weeknight and I was driving from store to store to do a couple of quick returns and pick up a few things. I had left Home Depot and was taking a shortcut through a mostly deserted office park/industrial area. All of a sudden, I felt what I thought was a hand on my right shoulder. Thinking someone was in the back seat of the car, my stomach dropped and I thought it was over. A moment later, I sighed with relief when I remembered I had brought my dog with me and it was her paw on my shoulder. She had been so quiet in the back of the car that I forgot she was there!

 

[Safeguard]

A little levity to start the holiday weekend: My greatest scare occurred a couple of years ago. It was a weeknight and I was driving from store to store to do a couple of quick returns and pick up a few things. I had left Home Depot and was taking a shortcut through a mostly deserted office park/industrial area. All of a sudden, I felt what I thought was a hand on my right shoulder. Thinking someone was in the back seat of the car, my stomach dropped and I thought it was over. A moment later, I sighed with relief when I remembered I had brought my dog with me and it was her paw on my shoulder. She had been so quiet in the back of the car that I forgot she was there!

LOL! I know I can get a little more jumpy than usual, if spend too much reading here... OT:

Recently, I was reading up on a case... about 2am.... and I clicked on a link that was suppose to have some pics of a cornfield. So I click the link, it brings me to a members photo bucket, but no pics, a second later,I get an incoming call, *unknown caller*, I answered but nobody said anything, I backspaced to the link to try it again, still no pics, again I get a incoming *unknown caller*... I pulled the phone away from my ear to look at it and see if I was connected to whomever, and a jump scare scene from a horror move, complete with creepy music, flashed across the screen! I about had a heart attack!

I got up and threw a few, (all) lights on, and took a look... after I composed myself, I went back and clicked the link again, sure enough, here comes an incoming unknown call... This time I scrutinized it, and found a barely perceptible x in the far top right corner! So it was a *mock* incoming call, that lead to the horror movie clip, whether you tried to answer or reject, (And a darn good one too! Perfectly mimicked my incoming all screen!).

 

[Massman33]

Umm in not seeing the comparison....when some people run or walk some people do it in groups or pairs specifically because you can still hear people when you are standing, running, or waking next to them....therefor it's more instinctual to speak to them....or ask for directions, offer water....

But you would never see two swimmers having a conversation swimming side by side, because you can't actually talk in between breaths....since you can't really have a conversation when your swimming obviously know ones gonna strike up a conversation in the middle of laps.

If someone is rock climbing there high up, and you not going to shout to them.

So I don't really see how those things are caparable.

If you're not a runner, you wouldn't know. Talking to a runner during his run never happens.

 

[Razz]

If you're not a runner, you wouldn't know. Talking to a runner during his run never happens.

I agree. That whole thing was exceptionally weird. It still makes me uncomfortable.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[compassionate]

Mskin put it so well, "I want this guy caught so badly" and we know nothing much at all from the cops. And femalejogger, love your dog paw anecdote! And dontt, you did the right thing each time imo

 

[Rocky1]

Hello. This is my first post. I found this site because I Googled VM in hopes that there would be some new information in her case, and it came up.
I live not far from Princeton. I find it interesting how many posts I have read where people have had the same thoughts as I have had in regards to the events leading to her death. I have read almost all of the two closed threads, and this thread, with the exception of skipping over a few pages. If I post something that has already been posted, I apologize.
There have been a few questions answered that I had. One was how quickly the Police responded to searching for her. Now I know that she had a 4:30 pm bus to catch back to NY.
The time line keeps coming up in my thoughts. The State Police in their press conference said the event happened between 1 pm and 4 pm. In the second press conference, that was scaled back from 1 pm to 3 pm. I think they determined that from the time of death given by the ME.
I know some have thought that she was abducted by car, brought someplace else, then brought back near her house. I think if she was abducted by car, her body would have ended up elsewhere. It also would have taken time to drive someplace else, drive back; unfortunately dispose of her body. I don't think there was enough time.
The cell phone ping at 2:30, showing her at the Mountain Barn. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think cell phones ping off of the closest tower, not that you are standing next to them.
I drove up Brook Station Rd last week, and there are at least tn other towers on that road, both south of her moms house.
When I drove by the cart road, I noticed 2ft+ grass matted down from the police traffic. I thought if a car was parked there on that road, the tires would have matted it down too. The same goes for a motorcycle. I doubt a car was parked there. The police would have noticed.
I doubt if "Socks" did it, there would have been a car, because NECN said he was a neighbor .In the second police press conference, they were asking if anyone saw a car parked on the side of the road, to call police. I live in a rural town, and when the cops see a car parked in a rural part of town abandoned, they run the plate #. I doubt this guy would have taken that chance.
Was he on foot? I thought about that too. I googled the area and noticed the cart road came out in someones yard. Mountain Man confirmed that too. If he was on foot, unless he lived in the area, he would have ended up on Rt 31. I think he would have been noticed.
I hope I am wrong here but I don't think the police have much of anything to go on. I am not even sure they have DNA. I know they too DNA from Socks, but they would have been bluffing to see how he reacted when asked to submit a sample. I would think if they had any they would at least say if the murder in Queens is connected. Again, I hope I am wrong.
This is what I think happened.
I think the guy was on a bicycle. I think he knew that road from either living there, or from maybe going down that road in the past to relieve himself. Not sure if he had it planned or if he rode past VM when she left her moms, but I think he waited for her there. He could have carried the bike in the woods and not left tracks, left it there, and walked back out to the road and ambushed her.
I think it happened when she first left the house, not when she was returning. She had a routine and it took about 1 1/2 hours, and if it happened on her return, I don't think he would have had the time to do it in that time frame. that would have been around 2:30 pm. The only thing that throws me off is if it did happen when she first left, that means she had her back against traffic, although there isn't much, unless he crossed the road to ambush her, exposing himself to potential traffic. That would have exposed him to her more too.
Once his was finished, he simple carried the bike out, got on and pedaled away. If he was wearing sun glasses and a helmet and was injured, that would have concealed it.if he was wearing gloves, less DNA. Nobody that saw him would have thought twice riding his bike.

 

[Chelly]

Welcome Rocky1. Great first post.

 

[tlcya]

:welcome5: Rocky1. Looking forward to more of your thoughts on this case.

 

[Rocky1]

Thank you.
A few more things. I had read that VM had Crohns too, and I thought the same thing. Maybe she ran down that cart road to relieve herself. That's possible, but I think there would have had to been someone waiting for her down the cart road, knowing that she was going to go there, or a car driving in either direction that saw her dart off the road within a few seconds time it takes to do that. again possible, but chances to me are low that happened.
One other thing. Someone posted that she may have been incapacitated, then dragged.I am with you on this. To say she was dragged the entire 100 yards kicking and screaming may not be true. She could have been stunned, or knocked out, dragged part way, came to, fought. Her running shoes could have came off while she was being dragged, and she started kicking him, .was killed, and then her body dragged the rest of the way to cover anyone seeing the fire. He may have set her feet on fire because he thought she had his DNA on her feet. Someone here posted that one of her burnt shoes were found near her body, That was the first I heard of that. I know shoes were found with the woman in Queens near her body, but I didn't know it was the same for VM.

 

[FindHG]

Thank you.
A few more things. I had read that VM had Crohns too, and I thought the same thing. Maybe she ran down that cart road to relieve herself. That's possible, but I think there would have had to been someone waiting for her down the cart road, knowing that she was going to go there, or a car driving in either direction that saw her dart off the road within a few seconds time it takes to do that. again possible, but chances to me are low that happened.
One other thing. Someone posted that she may have been incapacitated, then dragged.I am with you on this. To say she was dragged the entire 100 yards kicking and screaming may not be true. She could have been stunned, or knocked out, dragged part way, came to, fought. Her running shoes could have came off while she was being dragged, and she started kicking him, .was killed, and then her body dragged the rest of the way to cover anyone seeing the fire. He may have set her feet on fire because he thought she had his DNA on her feet. Someone here posted that one of her burnt shoes were found near her body, That was the first I heard of that. I know shoes were found with the woman in Queens near her body, but I didn't know it was the same for VM.

Welcome Rocky1. :Welcome1: Thank you for taking the time and for sharing your thoughts. You've read the threads more thoroughly than I, and much of what you say makes sense to me too. Good to have you here to help understand the area.

My impression, for no well informed reason, is that the profiles LE may have on both cases don't match. That's a guess in the absence of information investigators may have or may not have or are still looking into. Maybe there'll be updates after the weekend.


http://www.wcvb.com/news/sketch-of-witness-in-queens-joggers-death-released/41452596
12:29 PM EDT Aug 31, 2016

"Investigators said they have developed a DNA profile of the person who killed Vetrano, but they have not had a match.

Police have not connected the case to that of a woman who went for a run near her mother's home in Princeton and was found dead in the woods hours later."

 

[Inthedetails]

Welcome Rocky1. :Welcome1: Thank you for taking the time and for sharing your thoughts. You've read the threads more thoroughly than I, and much of what you say makes sense to me too. Good to have you here to help understand the area.

My impression, for no well informed reason, is that the profiles LE may have on both cases don't match. That's a guess in the absence of information investigators may have or may not have or are still looking into. Maybe there'll be updates after the weekend.


http://www.wcvb.com/news/sketch-of-witness-in-queens-joggers-death-released/41452596
12:29 PM EDT Aug 31, 2016

"Investigators said they have developed a DNA profile of the person who killed Vetrano, but they have not had a match.

Police have not connected the case to that of a woman who went for a run near her mother's home in Princeton and was found dead in the woods hours later."

While we're waiting for more information from LE, let's make our own list of similarities and differences between the two cases (Vanessa and Karina):

Similarities
1. Both women were attacked while jogging.
2. Both women were sexually assaulted and murdered.
3. Both women were left on the ground (as opposed to buried or hidden). Both women were found within hours of being reported missing.
4. Both women are close to their parents. Vanessa jogged a familiar route starting/ending at her mom's house. Karina jogged a familiar route after stopping by her father's house.
5. The two women are close in age.
6. The two women look physically similar - beautiful, long brown hair, in great shape.
7. Neither women seem to have a current or ex-boyfriend who is a named suspect.
8. Both women lived in NYC, though in different boroughs and there is no known connection between them.
9. DNA is not matching anyone in a database.
10. Both attacks happened in the afternoon, in daylight.
11. Both women fought, leaving injuries on the perp.

Differences
1. Vanessa was attacked in a small town in MA; Karina was attacked in a city park in Howard Beach, Queens.
2. Vanessa was burned, Karina was not.
3. Vanessa's clothes (except one shoe?) were taken, Karina's clothing was left at the scene.
4. Vanessa's COD has not been released that I recall. Karina was strangled.
5. It seems that a car was involved with Vanessa's case, but no car has been mentioned in Karina's case.
6. Vanessa was attacked while running on a road. Karina was attacked on an isolated path not on a road.
7. It seems (though not confirmed) that Vanessa was moved/dragged/lured down the cart path. It seems Karina was raped and murdered close to where she was jogging.

Fill in anything I missed!

(For what it's worth, I don't think the two cases are connected, but it's worth keeping an open mind until we can definitively say one way or the other.)

jmopinion

 

[Rocky1]

Welcome Rocky1. :Welcome1: Thank you for taking the time and for sharing your thoughts. You've read the threads more thoroughly than I, and much of what you say makes sense to me too. Good to have you here to help understand the area.

My impression, for no well informed reason, is that the profiles LE may have on both cases don't match. That's a guess in the absence of information investigators may have or may not have or are still looking into. Maybe there'll be updates after the weekend.


http://www.wcvb.com/news/sketch-of-witness-in-queens-joggers-death-released/41452596
12:29 PM EDT Aug 31, 2016

"Investigators said they have developed a DNA profile of the person who killed Vetrano, but they have not had a match.

Police have not connected the case to that of a woman who went for a run near her mother's home in Princeton and was found dead in the woods hours later."

Thank you.
I understand the reason law enforcement keeps certain things close to the vest, however I also know that in many cases it's the public that ends up solving the crime. I don't know why if they do have DNA on VM, they can't share if it matches KV. Personally I don't think they are the same killers. Although there area lot of similarities, as someone mentioned here., sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Same age, (I don't see too many 70 year old joggers), same build, ( common build being both joggers) same hair style. (common hair style)
I have also seen other cases in which law enforcement has gone the other way and told many details to solve a case. Hannah Graham was one. That police chief did daily press conferences, keeping the public informed and keeping Hannah in their minds urging people to go out and search their farm land, and deer cams. etc. He didn't let up and It paid off in the end.
I hope that you are right, and I hope they have something to say after the weekend. I also hope they do have DNA.
One reason I am stuck on the bicycle theory, is that if this guy was on foot, those dogs would have been tracking a scent through the woods, or along the road to where ever he went. I am sure his scent would have been as strong as hers still being they were there at the same time. If a person was on a bike that scent would have been lost. He may/may not have had a car/truck parked a few miles away someplace in the open and rode his bike to the vehicle, loaded it up and left. People posted wondering if maybe some of the houses had cams. Most are set back from the road, but not all. It would be nice if someone did catch a picture of someone on a bicycle riding by.
Some have thought it may be someone VM went to school with at Bancroft, but she had been out of that school for 10 years. I would think if someone had a grudge against her, either they would have let it go by now, or she would have had some type of contact with that person within the ten year period.
Again all speculation on my part.
One more thing.
I see discussion here about the fire. I did see video on the news showing two logs laying parallel on the ground a few feet apart with fresh soot and gray ash. I looked for the video to post, but I can't find it. It's not the deleted photos from Fox. I saw it a few days after she was killed.

 

[Rocky1]

While we're waiting for more information from LE, let's make our own list of similarities and differences between the two cases (Vanessa and Karina):

Similarities
1. Both women were attacked while jogging.
2. Both women were sexually assaulted and murdered.
3. Both women were left on the ground (as opposed to buried or hidden). Both women were found within hours of being reported missing.
4. Both women are close to their parents. Vanessa jogged a familiar route starting/ending at her mom's house. Karina jogged a familiar route after stopping by her father's house.
5. The two women are close in age.
6. The two women look physically similar - beautiful, long brown hair, in great shape.
7. Neither women seem to have a current or ex-boyfriend who is a named suspect.
8. Both women lived in NYC, though in different boroughs and there is no known connection between them.
9. DNA is not matching anyone in a database.
10. Both attacks happened in the afternoon, in daylight.
11. Both women fought, leaving injuries on the perp.

Differences
1. Vanessa was attacked in a small town in MA; Karina was attacked in a city park in Howard Beach, Queens.
2. Vanessa was burned, Karina was not.
3. Vanessa's clothes (except one shoe?) were taken, Karina's clothing was left at the scene.
4. Vanessa's COD has not been released that I recall. Karina was strangled.
5. It seems that a car was involved with Vanessa's case, but no car has been mentioned in Karina's case.
6. Vanessa was attacked while running on a road. Karina was attacked on an isolated path not on a road.
7. It seems (though not confirmed) that Vanessa was moved/dragged/lured down the cart path. It seems Karina was raped and murdered close to where she was jogging.

Fill in anything I missed!

(For what it's worth, I don't think the two cases are connected, but it's worth keeping an open mind until we can definitively say one way or the other.)

jmopinion

Simuliarities
Both living in NY.
I read but not confirmed that VM was strangled. Again nothing official.


Differences
#3 I see you typed VMs clothes were taken except for one shoe. I read she was found naked, but I didn't read anywhere where her clothes were missing. I do know KV had one shoe missing , and one was found a few yards from her.

 

[FindHG]

While we're waiting for more information from LE, let's make our own list of similarities and differences between the two cases (Vanessa and Karina):

Similarities
1. Both women were attacked while jogging.
2. Both women were sexually assaulted and murdered.
3. Both women were left on the ground (as opposed to buried or hidden). Both women were found within hours of being reported missing.
4. Both women are close to their parents. Vanessa jogged a familiar route starting/ending at her mom's house. Karina jogged a familiar route after stopping by her father's house.
5. The two women are close in age.
6. The two women look physically similar - beautiful, long brown hair, in great shape.
7. Neither women seem to have a current or ex-boyfriend who is a named suspect.
8. Both women lived in NYC, though in different boroughs and there is no known connection between them.
9. DNA is not matching anyone in a database.
10. Both attacks happened in the afternoon, in daylight.
11. Both women fought, leaving injuries on the perp.

Differences
1. Vanessa was attacked in a small town in MA; Karina was attacked in a city park in Howard Beach, Queens.
2. Vanessa was burned, Karina was not.
3. Vanessa's clothes (except one shoe?) were taken, Karina's clothing was left at the scene.
4. Vanessa's COD has not been released that I recall. Karina was strangled.
5. It seems that a car was involved with Vanessa's case, but no car has been mentioned in Karina's case.
6. Vanessa was attacked while running on a road. Karina was attacked on an isolated path not on a road.
7. It seems (though not confirmed) that Vanessa was moved/dragged/lured down the cart path. It seems Karina was raped and murdered close to where she was jogging.

Fill in anything I missed!

(For what it's worth, I don't think the two cases are connected, but it's worth keeping an open mind until we can definitively say one way or the other.)

jmopinion

Inthedetails, thank you for the great list. Very helpful to focus. One other aspect of the attacks on these young women, that seems to me worth noting: along their jogs, where they were attacked was the closest they would have been to water and a secluded place.

Foxfire and Rosesfromangles, who know so much more than I about how violent sexual predators work, will hopefully share what they know if they think it may apply. One reason, IIRC, was simply because a killer could wash off.

That both Vanessa and Karina either lived or were close to family, it seems to me, whomever murdered either or both, if there was stalking involved, may have sexual issues, but somehow related to some whacked out sense of control and competition with the young women's families? Both murders were committed not far from their homes. Who knows what messed up cagey little freaks like that need to feel - to do such horrible things and want to live?

Thank you.
I understand the reason law enforcement keeps certain things close to the vest, however I also know that in many cases it's the public that ends up solving the crime. I don't know why if they do have DNA on VM, they can't share if it matches KV. Personally I don't think they are the same killers. Although there area lot of similarities, as someone mentioned here., sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Same age, (I don't see too many 70 year old joggers), same build, ( common build being both joggers) same hair style. (common hair style)
I have also seen other cases in which law enforcement has gone the other way and told many details to solve a case. Hannah Graham was one. That police chief did daily press conferences, keeping the public informed and keeping Hannah in their minds urging people to go out and search their farm land, and deer cams. etc. He didn't let up and It paid off in the end.
I hope that you are right, and I hope they have something to say after the weekend. I also hope they do have DNA.
One reason I am stuck on the bicycle theory, is that if this guy was on foot, those dogs would have been tracking a scent through the woods, or along the road to where ever he went. I am sure his scent would have been as strong as hers still being they were there at the same time. If a person was on a bike that scent would have been lost. He may/may not have had a car/truck parked a few miles away someplace in the open and rode his bike to the vehicle, loaded it up and left. People posted wondering if maybe some of the houses had cams. Most are set back from the road, but not all. It would be nice if someone did catch a picture of someone on a bicycle riding by.
Some have thought it may be someone VM went to school with at Bancroft, but she had been out of that school for 10 years. I would think if someone had a grudge against her, either they would have let it go by now, or she would have had some type of contact with that person within the ten year period.
Again all speculation on my part.
One more thing.
I see discussion here about the fire. I did see video on the news showing two logs laying parallel on the ground a few feet apart with fresh soot and gray ash. I looked for the video to post, but I can't find it. It's not the deleted photos from Fox. I saw it a few days after she was killed.

Again, Rocky, you make good sense to me. Thank you for thinking this through.

 

[Inthedetails]

Inthedetails, thank you for the great list. Very helpful to focus. One other aspect of attacks on these young women, that seems worth noting, is that along their jogs, where they were attacked was the closest they would have been to water and a secluded place.

Foxfire and Rosefromangles, who know so much more than I about how violent sexual predators work, will hopefully share what they know if they think it may apply. One reason, IIRC, was simply because a killer could wash off.

That both Vanessa and Katrina either lived or were close to family, it seems to me, whomever murdered either or both, if there was stalking involved, may have sexual issues, but somehow related to some whacked out sense of control and competition with the young women's families. Both murders were committed not far from their homes. Who knows what a messed up cagey little freak like that needs to feel to do such horrible things and want to live?



Again, Rocky, you make good sense to me. Thank you for thinking this through.

I never would have thought of that - the BBM part above.

Where was the water near Vanessa?

jmo

 

[FindHG]

I think, if I'm reading the maps right, just across the street and south of the cart path. Maybe others who know the area would know better?

I never would have thought of that - the BBM part above.

Where was the water near Vanessa?

jmo

 

[Rocky1]

I never would have thought of that - the BBM part above.

Where was the water near Vanessa?

jmo

Follow Cobb Brook north, and you will see Cobb Pond https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...d4acaa4e3555312!8m2!3d42.4291245!4d-71.891838

 

[Rocky1]

Inthedetails, thank you for the great list. Very helpful to focus. One other aspect of the attacks on these young women, that seems to me worth noting: along their jogs, where they were attacked was the closest they would have been to water and a secluded place.

Foxfire and Rosesfromangles, who know so much more than I about how violent sexual predators work, will hopefully share what they know if they think it may apply. One reason, IIRC, was simply because a killer could wash off.

That both Vanessa and Katrina either lived or were close to family, it seems to me, whomever murdered either or both, if there was stalking involved, may have sexual issues, but somehow related to some whacked out sense of control and competition with the young women's families? Both murders were committed not far from their homes. Who knows what messed up cagey little freaks like that need to feel - to do such horrible things and want to live?



Again, Rocky, you make good sense to me. Thank you for thinking this through.

Again,I don't think the murders of VM, and KV were done by the same person, however I do think they were both done by the same type of person. Both were violent sexual predators.Here's why.
Most sexual predators enjoy a few things that apply here.
1) Having sex against a persons will.
2) Inflicting pain and humiliation on people.
3) Participating/watching acts of physical aggression on others.
These two women could have been a target for the simple fact they were fit. Some predators enjoy the struggle, and the overpowering.
I read in a post that the person that killed VM was a loner. Possible, but maybe not so. Some of these people are family men, and are outstanding members of the community. IE John Wayne Gacy, Dennis Raider. (BTK) Dennis Raider very seldom had sexual intercourse with his victims, but was sexually aroused by watching his victims suffer.

 

[Safeguard]

Didn't they both also use the, Map My Run app, or was that just Vanessa?