MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #4

[JEF]

Sorry I meant to say Karina's killer is probably left-handed.

 

[JEF]

If, and this is a huge if, the killer is the same man then there would likely have been severe triggers in the past couple of years, possibly one within months of the killings. Loss of job, isolation, financial difficulties, loss of family or close relationships. There may be recent charges for lesser violent crimes.

 

[Kickoff61]

If, and this is a huge if, the killer is the same man then there would likely have been severe triggers in the past couple of years, possibly one within months of the killings. Loss of job, isolation, financial difficulties, loss of family or close relationships. There may be recent charges for lesser violent crimes.

IF and that would be a big IF , could the killer do a lot of traveling for work? and you are right, there could have been life changes in the months leading up to this..

 

[feelinghip]

Karina was not an only child, she has a sister.

 

[ThinkHard]

A couple things

-KV wasn't an only child
-I don't think it's known VM was wearing ear buds
-VM's FB was set to private, she rarely twittered, just used Instagram, KV had a much stronger social media presence then VM
-KV had just ended a relationship.
-though both were killed in remote areas, one was " in the country " of central ma, and one was in old mafia dumping grounds of NYC.
-as far as we know all VM's clothes were not found with her, and the shoe found appears to have been accidently dropped.

I also don't think we can say with clarity that VM was or wasn't killed at the site she was found.

Living local to VM, I honestly don't even remember hearing about KV's case until after VM's murder. Not saying it wasn't reported at all up here, but it wasn't sensationalized until after the VM case. So I really doubt a copy cat killer. But that's jmo.

Police have said KV's killer is left handed but have said nothing about the handedness of VM's killer. At least nothing I have seen. Perhaps your confusing the two cases, which is easy to do.

 

[ThinkHard]

If, and this is a huge if, the killer is the same man then there would likely have been severe triggers in the past couple of years, possibly one within months of the killings. Loss of job, isolation, financial difficulties, loss of family or close relationships. There may be recent charges for lesser violent crimes.

IF they are the same killer, which I don't think they are, I'd still think it would have to be someone local to the Princeton area, who is also familiar with New York. Which would make me think his real target was Vanessa and karina was practice.

In my opinion though, I think the chances of them being connected are really really low, though of course not impossible.

 

[JEF]

Thanks, Thinkhard

There was an MSM report that stated her cellphone, clothes and "maybe earbuds" were the object of the Thursday search after the body was found. Also, most runners wear earbuds, especially those who carry cell phones.

I did read that about the KV breakup. Still, she was technically "single." Not sure this is relevant either way. The boyfriend has been cleared.

Regardless of the second shoe, one shoe was missing from both scenes.

I'm not saying it's the same person. I can't say that. But I would be shocked if there is no relationship between the two crimes, i.e. second killer was unaware of the first.

I did mean to say KV's killer is left-handed. Posted about that afterward.


I'm not saying their social media presence was exactly the same, only that they used it. It's not that hard to hack around the private FB setting. Not saying that happened.

 

[JEF]

That's a really interesting idea. Is the location the main reason you think that?

IF they are the same killer, which I don't think they are, I'd still think it would have to be someone local to the Princeton area, who is also familiar with New York. Which would make me think his real target was Vanessa and karina was practice.

In my opinion though, I think the chances of them being connected are really really low, though of course not impossible.

 

[Kickoff61]

Were there any reports where her shoe was found?

 

[Kickoff61]

Reading the recent comments, I suppose if the person is living in Princeton and is familiar with NY, traveling for work or something, then person could be traveling after it happened with wounds that people in the immediate area didn't see. Not that this happened, but a thought.

 

[ThinkHard]

That's a really interesting idea. Is the location the main reason you think that?

Yes. Mostly anyway. Princeton is remote, and there aren't any hotels, except for one small b&b in Princeton, so it would be difficult to find a place to stay and be able to "watch" her. Also finding her address would be difficult, because it's listed under her non blood related uncles last name. Following her home would be tricky, because she took a bus, and there is no public transportation or car rental from the bus stop to Princeton. Lastly it's not near any highways which would allow for easier get away.

Of course it's not impossible that someone could have followed her from NYC, these are just some of the reasons that make me think it's less likely.

 

[Kickoff61]

With it being such a rural area , IF this killer is there and familiar with the location she was found , etc. they will find him.

 

[Steleheart]

Yes. Mostly anyway. Princeton is remote, and there aren't any hotels, except for one small b&b in Princeton, so it would be difficult to find a place to stay and be able to "watch" her. Also finding her address would be difficult, because it's listed under her non blood related uncles last name. Following her home would be tricky, because she took a bus, and there is no public transportation or car rental from the bus stop to Princeton. Lastly it's not near any highways which would allow for easier get away.

Of course it's not impossible that someone could have followed her from NYC, these are just some of the reasons that make me think it's less likely.

Yes. There are many reasons why it seems a remote possibility. I think the strongest, aside from the difficulties with the stalking angle, is the DNA. It is clear that they have DNA from Vanessa, even though LE has not reported it specifically, but they did report that he is male. Not many ways to determine that with certainty without DNA. A blood sample or semen would also yield DNA.
Karina's murderer left his DNA as well so LE would at least know if they both matched each other.

That would be huge and I can't think of any reason that LE would not announce such a huge breakthrough. In both cases, no match has been found in the system. The gentleman in his socks who volunteered his DNA was IMO a dead end.

I don't think they are the same person but I would not say for certain they are unrelated. It is possible that VM's killer is a copycat, or that both killers know each other, or that they both are runners, belong to a running club, Facebook group, etc., Or any combination.

So JMO but I don't have a "feel" for a serial killer. Amateur wannabes maybe.+


http://www.amny.com/news/karina-vet...ogger-s-killer-completed-nypd-says-1.12243044
"That DNA was checked against a state and nationwide database, but investigators were not able to match it to anyone in the system, Boyce said, according to ABC7. The samples were collected from Vetrano’s cellphone, her neck, and other parts of her body."

http://www.necn.com/news/new-englan...ssa-Marcotte-Investigation-DNA-390735071.html
"wenty-seven-year-old Vanessa Marcotte was killed almost two weeks ago, but no arrests have been made in her case. Authorities have tested DNA in this case; however, they are still waiting for some results to come back. Meanwhile, they’re still looking for any information related to her death."


MOO

 

[JEF]

But if they didn't match that would also be important. Why not announce that information to the public? If they are different people, how would telling the public that harm either investigation?

 

[ElemWatson]

The torch a roofer uses, and other speculations we are not yet able to examine per mod direction.

But how would a roofer doing a repair job for her mom have come to know of Vanessa's bi-monthly jogging schedule?


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[ElemWatson]

What has been said publicly about the Marcotte and Vetrano cases? I know Karina's father said early on the cases are "totally unrelated" and that NY police said they did not believe there was a link. As far as I can tell, Mass police have only stated they're "not ruling anything out," which also suggests they are unrelated. But in the press conference, there are two times when Early looks down. Once when they ask about the KV case - he breaks eye contact and looks directly at the ground for a moment. He breaks eye contact again when they ask about past relationships; he looks down to the left, which perhaps suggests he's thinking/remembering what's he's learned from interviews (which is not to suggest anything bad about Vanessa). He also hesitates when asked if there is a Mass investigator in NY; after that, the pr guy steps in and says Early will take "one more question."

The FBI gets involved at that point. Is there a link between the crimes after all and that's what Early's being deceptive about? Or does he already know they're "totally unrelated" and doesn't want to say that for some reason? It's possible the FBI got involved for another unknown reason or simply because Vanessa lived in NYC and was killed in MA; that might be considered crossing state lines, one of the criteria for FBI involvement. The FBI were called in very quickly on in the Vetrano case because it happened on federal land. It unclear what their current involvement is in either case.

Here are the similarities I can see:

Both were around the same age and looked somewhat similar (very attractive, petite, fit, dark hair, dark eyes, some Italian ancestry).
Both were only children who were close with their parents.
Both were educated, successful and lived in NYC.
Both posted frequently on social media, including FB and instagram (like most women in their twenties).
Both were not currently in relationships.
Both bodies were severely disfigured. Vetrano was said to be beaten "beyond recognition" according to some MSM reports. Vanessa would have also likely been "beyond recognition" due to burns on face.
Both were killed while running alone with earbuds in remote areas.
Both were violated sexually in some way (though details have not been released)
One running shoe was missing from both scenes of the crime.
Both bodies were found within hours of the point at which they went missing.
Both women were likely killed at the site they were attacked.
Both bodies were left exposed and partially unclothed.
It would probably have been known both would be reported missing very quickly.
Both may have left scratches, etc. on their killer.
Both were killed within days of each other.
Both murders gained national attention.

Differences/possible differences

Vanessa was burned and possibly tied to a tree; Karina was not.
We don't know cause of death for Vanessa; Karina was strangled so severely it almost broke her neck.
We don't know if Vanessa's phone was found in the vicinity of the murder; Karina's was found 15 feet from her body
Vanessa was killed in a small town. Vetrano was killed in Queens.
Vanessa seemed focused more on her work, according to MSM. Vetrano worked two jobs but had a very active social life, which she blogged about very candidly.


All of these similarities could be coincidental or we could be looking at a copy cat killer. If the police have said Vanessa's killer is probably left-handed, why have they not stated the DNA doesn't match Vetrano's? They had a profile in late August. Is that normal procedure?

Many, if not all, of the similarities can be explained away. Most women have brown hair and brown eyes. Many fit women in their twenties are the victims of these types of crimes. If someone did target either of them, their run locations would have been the easiest place to do so. The similarities may have nothing to do with m.o. and everything to do with practicality. That said, it seems to hard to believe a second killer wouldn't have been aware of the similarities and taken them into account when planning the crime.

If the murders are linked, then the killer is from NYC. Someone who knew VM in NYC, either at work or socially. I had this thought, but felt it was far-fetched. The perp in MA seemed to know the area well.

It might be useful for LE to find out if Vanessa's and Karina's social circles intersected in any way.


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[Steleheart]

But if they didn't match that would also be important. Why not announce that information to the public? If they are different people, how would telling the public that harm either investigation?

Police have said that they don't think they are related. Though this link is Aug 9, I don't think anything has developed per LE since then. I will look for a link re. Vanessa's case and the LE remarks regarding that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/10/nyregion/vanessa-marcotte-karina-vetrano.html?_r=0
"Police officials in New York said they did not believe the episode was related to the death last Tuesday of Karina Vetrano, 30, in the Howard Beach neighborhood."

ETA:
"Early said there was “nothing at this point” connecting Marcotte’s death to the unsolved slaying last week of Vetrano, 30, in Howard Beach. Vetrano was also running alone — near her home — on an overgrown trail last Tuesday when she was raped and murdered."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...c-google-employee-dead-mass-article-1.2742909

 

[Steleheart]

If the murders are linked, then the killer is from NYC. Someone who knew VM in NYC, either at work or socially. I had this thought, but felt it was far-fetched. The perp in MA seemed to know the area well.

It might be useful for LE to find out if Vanessa's and Karina's social circles intersected in any way.




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I too wonder if there is a connection in SM such as a member's group a running club, etc, but I think a connection is remote. If they are connected in SM, then I say they are not the same person, but known to each other via SM links.
Having said that I see no reason, if they are the same killer, or known to each other, that he cannot be from Princeton and living in NY just like Vanessa, with a home to stay in when he visits home like Vanessa has.

MOO

 

[JEF]

I don't think it's two people who know each other.

I've never been sure about the nature of a link, only that the second death is probably not a fight with an admirer that escalated or a random act where the killer was unaware of the first murder. There are problems with the Princeton killer being someone from NYC, just as there are problems with the theory that someone from MA killed Vetrano. As Thinkhard and others have said, the rural location is important to understanding the Marcotte crime. It seems unlikely someone from NY would choose Princeton over an easier locale in the city; he would not have to drive four hours to and then return, at the very least. UNLESS as the person above stated, this person has lived/has family that lives in the area.

If the person who killed Vetrano is from MA, he would have either 1) been absent from work that day and probably the next, at a minimum; 2) traveled for work in a job where no one would notice injuries - trucker comes to mind; or 3) have been unemployed or on vacation. I don't see the killer of either woman as someone who is married with a family or living at home.

If the killer is on vacation from work and does not know his target well then returns to work after a week, his injuries may have healed enough not to be noticeable. August is a pretty common vacation month. He may also be someone who works from home and could stay out of view for a short time (or travel out of town for a day/night without raising any eyebrows). Also, if the killer wore a mask, cap, etc. his face may not have been scratched in a noticeable way. Scratches on hands, arms, etc. would be easier to conceal.

I do believe Early knew about the DNA results (whether they matched or didn't) when he gave that second press conference, which explains his body language.

 

[JEF]

Yes - although I'm not sure they would have had the killer's DNA for Marcotte by Aug 8-9 when her body was found the night of the seventh. And nothing about a lack of relationship since. And no cause of death. Usually that is released, right? How often do they hold even that back for two months?

If (huge if) they are related, my guess is it's not someone from NY. NY could be a diversion, in the same way the cart path may have been. Two Ny women shouts "this killer is from NY." The cart path shouts "there was a car on Brooks Station Road." But then most of the time the obvious answer is the right one.