Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 19

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If, if, IF the McCanns are ever charged with a crime, where would they be tried at? Do you think it is possible for them to get a impartial jury? If in Portugal, do they have a jury of their peers there?...(pardon my ignorance, I could look it up, but I'm lazy at the moment.)
 
If, if, IF the McCanns are ever charged with a crime, where would they be tried at? Do you think it is possible for them to get a impartial jury? If in Portugal, do they have a jury of their peers there?...(pardon my ignorance, I could look it up, but I'm lazy at the moment.)

I think you have hit on something here....

I believe, and have read in numerous discussions, that the crime was committed in Portugal and therefore would be tried in Portugal and subject to their punishments.

Why wouldn't the PJ, if they had a weak case, just archive the whole thing? They have to know that an impartial jury would be extremely difficult. I assume the "peers" could be considered professional people around the same age?

So, if the PJ knew how difficult it would be to go to trial with just circumstantial evidence...why haven't they just "given up", admitted defeat, archived the process and moved on? They would not look that bad, IMO.

So, since they haven't and are still "working" the case it would make sense that they have strong circumstantial (nothing more without a body) evidence and are making sure to have everything in order, checked and double-checked and are probably still collecting said evidence (and still trying to find a body). Then they will be prepared to go to trial and not end up looking like a bunch of idiots.

I am sure they would rather give it up than look like idiots.

See what I mean?
 
Yep. I see what ya mean. I hope you are right...
 
I think it's more possible than not, that the PJ feels they have strong circumstantial evidence, but the kind of evidence that could be argued away by a strong, top-dollar defense attorney. The one "smoking gun" piece of evidence is missing, or destroyed in the initial search, etc. The P.J. has exhausted the leads in the abduction theory, and realized early on that it was not plausible.

That the abduction theory is not plausible is backed up by the lack of serious leads that have panned out to anything--no credible sightings, no credible evidence that she was ever alive after the early evening hours, etc. Even the McCanns' private agency has not been able to come up with anything that even resembled a truly hopeful solid lead.
 
Hi Friends, I know one thing this case has done for me is learning about the way they do things in England and Portugal that are so different than here in the States. One are that is so different is in how their judiciary is carried out.

In Portugal what I have gleaned that is so different, is that by the time the case goes before the judges, it is a solid provable case, for the most part. Here in the States a case might be swayed one way or the other depending on the attorneys involved and what evidence they get excluded or what emphasis or tack they use, etc.

In Portugal, it is possible to have a trial by jury, but that is the exception to the rule from what I have read. Most generally it is a panel of 3 judges that hear the case. That is why the Prosecutor is so very careful that everything fits together in the case showing guilt or they do not proceed. They take their time and wait until new evidence surfaces.

It could be if the Mc's are arrested their swarm of lawyers par excellente will try to get a jury trial. The only thing I have really read as a possibility though is the trial by 3 judges, the European approach.
 
Found both these articles on Mirro Forum, both interesting reading.

From Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag.....ge_id=1770

Hogans website
www.ehogans.com


The McCanns bring in cold-case detectives to investigate Madeleine's disappearance
By DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN

Kate and Gerry McCann have hired a former Met Police officer to carry out a "cold case" review into Madeleine's disappearance.


Noel Hogan, a former CID detective, has spent hundreds of hours interviewing British witnesses in the case.

He has also gone through each witness's existing statements line by line. Among those he has interviewed include the socalled "Tapas seven" who were on holiday with the McCanns in Praia da Luz last May.

He is also thought to have taken Kate and Gerry McCann through their own statements in minute detail.

Mr Hogan spent eight years in the Met where he reached the rank of detective superintendent.

Since 1986 he has run his own detective agency in Surrey, Hogan International, which claims to have extensive experience dealing with missing-person cases.

Mr Hogan had been investigating one of the 7/7 suicide bombers before the terror attacks in 2005 after the man's bank became suspicious of his spending patterns.

When contacted by the Daily Mail, Mr Hogan confirmed that he had spoken to many of the holidaymakers now back in Britain.

He said: "I have been reinterviewing a number of the witnesses that were out in Portugal at the time."

He added that his investigation would tie in with the enquiry being conducted by the Spanish detective agency Metodo 3 in Barcelona.

Since four-year- old Madeleine's disappearance, well-wishers have contributed over £1million to the fund to help find her.

The McCanns have spent much of this money on Metodo 3, which is being paid £50,000 a month to lead the search for their daughter.

However, the couple are understood to have become increasingly disillusioned with the firm, after its head detective Francisco Marco made a series of wild public statements.

Mr Marco claimed to know for a fact that the missing toddler was being kept in North Africa and would be home by Christmas.

But yesterday a source close to the family said that Kate and Gerry were keeping faith with Metodo 3 in spite of their concerns.

But the source confirmed that they have also authorised the employment of Mr Hogan to coordinate the UK end of the investigation.

The McCanns' official spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, declined to comment.

Metodo 3 are currently trying to re-interview an Irish family who said they saw a man carrying away a child on the night Madeleine disappeared.

Martin Smith and his family-from Drogheda in Co. Louth, told police about the sighting - which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner.

They described a barefoot child and a man wearing beige trousers walking towards the beach in Praia da Luz, about 400yards from the McCanns' holiday apartment.

However, they said that the man was definitely not official suspect Robert Murat, whom they had met before and would have recognised.

Mr Smith even flew back to Portugal to give evidence but said he had not been contacted by police since making a statement in May.

http://www.correiomanha.pt/not.....&p=200

Investigation: The Public Prosecutor did not request the continuation of the secrecy
The PJ maintains it was a murder

The Judiciary Police tomorrow will deliver an interim report in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and continues to consider the crime as a murder. The researchers maintained that the minor was killed accidentally by their parents, who later hid the corpse. Gerry and Kate can still be accused of simulation of a crime, for asking for the help of the police to look for the girl.

In parallel, and because that was the thesis when Murat was declared arguido, the process maintains the thesis of abduction. Hypothesis that was 'consumed" in the development of the investigation, when the elements of the PJ gathered evidence that pointed to the murder. Since the British resident in Praia da Luz is still an arguido, the characterization of abduction persists in the investigation.

Tomorrow, the researchers will also deliver the rogatory letters to the Court of Portimão, which will be sent to England next week. They will have the questions that must be made to the friends who spent holidays in the Algarve with the McCanns and only after that the PJ will consider if they will question again the child's parents.

Before that,the CM knows, the investigation will not be concluded. "We cannot do it before the rogatory letters are fulfilled," said a source to the CM.

This step does not require, automatically,the maintenance of the secrecy of justice. Indeed, yesterday, the public prosecutor had not requested an extension of the secrecy, and he may still do so tomorrow, the first day after the judicial holidays and when the non-urgent procedures (such as the case of the disappearance of Maddie) run again in the Court.

In the first dispatch to maintain the secrecy of the proceedings, the judge justtified it with the media of the case, and at the time he did not decree the special complexity of the process. What can still be done tomorrow.

GERRY AT FULL-TIME WORK

Eight months after the disappearance of his daughter, Gerry McCann, of 39 years, returned yesterday to work full time. According to the electronic edition of the English newspaper 'Daily Mail', the specialist in cardiology will devote himself to the profession. However, Gerry agreed with the administration of the hospital in Glenfield that he will leave aside surgeries. Since November 1st he was working part-time,but Gerry has already shown that he is balanced and therefore was allowed to return full time. The idea is to make his life as normal as possible, spite of not knowing what happened to Maddie. The couple will however, according to the 'Leicester Mercury', discuss strategies with the lawyers to revive the campaign for Maddie.

MURAT AWAITS TO BE CLEARED

Robert Murat looks forward to the coming events.
Tomorrow he can stop being an arguido if the public prosecutor makes an interim report of no accusation to the British. The prosecutor could also interpret that the deadlines of the investigation extends to date when he was made arguido which will happen next January 14, after the completion of eight months.

The partial filing orders, are unusual, with only one recent case. It was the process that involved Nobre Guedes, former minister of Santana Lopes, who saw the charges against him archived more than a year before the co-defendants had been accused.

DETAILS

NOT URGENT

Cases where there are no arrested arguidos are not urgent. They stop in judicial holidays (the judicial holidays only end today), when the courts are partially closed. This is the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

EXCEPTIONS TO THE LAW

The Council of the Judiciary Magistrates has the power to consider that a process is urgent, even if there is no one arrested. They did it in the process of Casa Pia, arguing with complexity of the investigation and the media of the case. They have not done so in the situation that involves the English girl.
Eduardo Dâmaso / Paul Marcelino / Tânia Laranjo
 
Hi Friends, I know one thing this case has done for me is learning about the way they do things in England and Portugal that are so different than here in the States. One are that is so different is in how their judiciary is carried out.

In Portugal what I have gleaned that is so different, is that by the time the case goes before the judges, it is a solid provable case, for the most part. Here in the States a case might be swayed one way or the other depending on the attorneys involved and what evidence they get excluded or what emphasis or tack they use, etc.

In Portugal, it is possible to have a trial by jury, but that is the exception to the rule from what I have read. Most generally it is a panel of 3 judges that hear the case. That is why the Prosecutor is so very careful that everything fits together in the case showing guilt or they do not proceed. They take their time and wait until new evidence surfaces.

It could be if the Mc's are arrested their swarm of lawyers par excellente will try to get a jury trial. The only thing I have really read as a possibility though is the trial by 3 judges, the European approach.

Wow, I am slipping....I knew this. Exactly right Scandi. Thanks.
 
Wow, I am slipping....I knew this. Exactly right Scandi. Thanks.

Hi Colomom, Great to see you, and I must say you do great works in this case. Thanks for the new photos of Madeleine we had not seen before.

Just reading at MF, I realized I left out one main difference {if this statemnent is true}. A poster wrote that once someone is charged with a crime in Portugal, the PJ can't add any evidence that has comes to light.

No Perry Mason moments happen in Portugal! ;)


Scandi/Keraste
 
Tomorrow, the researchers will also deliver the rogatory letters to the Court of Portimão, which will be sent to England next week. They will have the questions that must be made to the friends who spent holidays in the Algarve with the McCanns and only after that the PJ will consider if they will question again the child's parents.

Before that,the CM knows, the investigation will not be concluded. "We cannot do it before the rogatory letters are fulfilled," said a source to the CM.

This step does not require, automatically,the maintenance of the secrecy of justice. Indeed, yesterday, the public prosecutor had not requested an extension of the secrecy, and he may still do so tomorrow, the first day after the judicial holidays and when the non-urgent procedures (such as the case of the disappearance of Maddie) run again in the Court.

In the first dispatch to maintain the secrecy of the proceedings, the judge justtified it with the media of the case, and at the time he did not decree the special complexity of the process. What can still be done tomorrow.
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that this is about the fifth time they've said they were "about to file rogatory papers," so . . . yawn.

I'm never going to complain about U.S. government bureaucracy again! In the U.S., these wretched papers would have been filed months ago and sent off to England.
 
Even if the 'rogatory' letters are sent, exactly how much "real" information do PLE think they are going to get, now that the whole world knows, and everyone and anyone has had time to compare notes and get their stories straight? They have all been questioned by their own attorneys, and the cold case guy, apparently. This new questioning is going to be a walk in the park for the Tapas9.

Someone asked earlier, maybe IW, where the trial would be held if anyone was arrested. I would assume it would be in Portugal, of course, but how hard would that be, if you don't speak the language? Oh well - that's their problem, right? :)
 
Apparently, nothing is going on of major importance in this case. Sadly, I think Madeleine's disappearance will go the way of JonBenet's murder and never be solved unless a miracle happens and her body turns up.
 
Sadly Calikid, I think you are right. But I doubt even a body would help. It sure didn't with JonBenet...or even Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman. What do they all have in common? you got it....$$


Off Topic: While WS was down, I decided to read for a while at the Mirror Forum. WOW, I have never really checked it out much, only to read a few links posted by Colomom and Pickle...I thought our Mods where a little tough, but geezer, how glad I am to have them now. I have never witnessed such a cat and mouse, dog and pony show in all my life. Thanks Mods, for keeping us sane.
 
Hi, I don't know if you have someone here to translates the Portuguese articles, but they usually get to the nub of the issue. This was posted by Li at Mirror and I am bringing it over here as I consider it BREAKING NEWS. Bitter Sweet it is to learn when you put it together with Eddie's alerts:

Exclusive CORREIO Da MANHA
2008-01-7

Maddie's case

Blood in the flat and in the car confirmed

The final result of the tests that arrived recently from England do not leave any doubts to the researcher of the Criminal Police. The blood found in the McCanns car is from Madeline as well as the vestiges detected in the house rented by the British and from where the three years old child disappeared without a trace.

The recent developments of Maddie's case will be available on line Monday morning.
http://www.correiomanha.pt/not.....81&p=0


Tonight I will try to figure out how to PM Li to get permission to bring over her translations if we don't have that here. xoxox

"The front cover of the newspaper says:
Confirmed blood in the flat and in the car
Final results of the British laboratory
The risk of confusion between the genetic profiles of the twins and Maddie was eliminated.
"
 
Scandi: If that is true about the blood in the car, then they need to arrest these people and quit tap dancing around the truth.
 
Can you believe this? Here is another BOMB. Michaela was made an Arguida in November of last year. She was heard as a witness and became a suspect in Maddie's case"

Murat's girlfriend is also an arguida

24 HORAS
Jan 7, 2008

Michaela Walczuch is suspected of being allegedly involved in the child's disappearance. Her alibi is being investigated by the authorities

Michaela Walczuch, ex girlfriend of Robert Murat, the first arguido in the case of Madeleine McCann's disappearance was also constituted arguida in the case. In November 2007 the German, 39 years old, was called to make depositions as witness in the process. Nonetheless few minutes after she began her deposition her status changed. She is a suspect, according to the Public Prosecutor of being involved in the disappearance of the child,in the 3rd of May.
A denounce made by a witness, whose name is not mentioned by the authorities was in the basis for this decision, they just followed the law.
"There is nothing special in being constituted an arguido. But there was an action that was not considered deontological made by some PJ investigators that questioned Robert Murat and Michaela. Both were initially notified as witnesses and when they came, by free will, to the the questioning they were constituted arguidos because that would give them more guarantees of defence"said Francisco Pagarete, lawyer of the suspects.
The lawyer goes further in his criticism: " To the eyes of the public opinion they are both suspects of a crime they never committed. But nobody will free them of the suspicion with all the material and psicological damages that a dramatic situation like this implies. Someone will have to pay for this. I am happy that the new Codes Criminal Procedure and Penal changed this situation that was an aberration". Francisco Pagarete guarantees that Murat will sue as soon as everything is clarified, he will sue the Portuguese and British State as well as the Criminal Police.

Anonymous denounce

The involvement of Michaela Walczuch in the case has in its basis a denounce made to the PJ by a witness in the process that says that saw Maddie with a couple in Algarve two days after her disappearance. The situation happened in Spain more than 140 km from Praia da Luz. The witness guaranteed to the authorities seeing Michaela handling the girl to a man but she/he was not able to identify the man. It was based in that deposition that the ex girlfriend of Murat was made an arguida.
Meanwhile Robert Murat's mother claimed already several times and such declarations are in the process, that her son was always with her in that date. "In 3rd of May, as it is usual for several years, I went to walk the dogs. I returned around 20.00 hours and Robert was already there. He stayed all the time at home", said to the team of researchers Jenny Murat, 72 years old, employee for more than two decades in the District Hospital of Lagos, where 24 Horas confirmed she is a very considered lady.
"She is a person with a respectable professional histoy. Everybody loves her, patients and colleagues", said an employee of that hospital.


http://www.24horasnewspaper.co.....mp;link=14


This is also from Li, and I did PM her.
 
Scandi: If that is true about the blood in the car, then they need to arrest these people and quit tap dancing around the truth.

Hi ThoughtFox, Great to see you as always, and BTW, I must say I love the background behind your Fox. For some reason I don't remember that before. Well anyway, it's lookin' good!



In America I think any prosecutor would have them in the keeper at this point. There was another article that said today they now have enough evidence to PROSECUTE the Mc's and Murat. Add that to the blood in the car and apt being hers, to the bodily fluids in the car definately from the corpse of Madeleine and it did not get there by transfer - plus everything else they have regarding the phone texting and calls, witness accounts, the PJ supposedly having the blue bag as they snatched it right after Gerry put it in another car ~ etc, etc, etc!

But the Portuguese work differently. They have all this. They are up against many forces that will try to kill any prosecution, what with the British government's involvement in the case, the finest lawyers who will try to keep the McCanns from being extradited to Portugal, a biased British press, etc. Plus the PJ have to satisfy the Judiciary Dept who actually give the approval to arrest I believe, moving them one notch up from Arguido to Charged.

And it might depend on what they are going to charge them with. Murder. I read in some link a few days ago that is what one of the charges will be - not accidental homicide. In Portugal it doesn't matter how one dies, as it is all the charge of murder. Then they will be charged with misleading the investigation and something else. I'll have to see if I can find that link. So everything has to be done just right, be circumspect and get all the OK's from their upper judicial management.

It is no wonder that in Portugal if you end up going before the judges you are pretty well cooked. It is a pat case or it doesn't go!

Krams

PS: And I certainly hope they are charged with scamming the world with their fund and Campaign, and taking all that money from children and those who maybe really only gave because they couldn't bear the thought of Madeleine not being found when the parents knew she was dead all along ! :banghead:
 
Here is the article saying they have enough to prosecute:

SUNDAY MAIL
Madeleine Cops "Have Enough To Charge Parents
Jan 6 2008 By Tom Warden

http://tinyurl.com/36ugwc

Snippet
" . . DETECTIVES probing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann say they have enough proof to charge her parents.

Portuguese police plan to travel to the UK to grill the couple and seven holiday pals they dined with when Maddie, four, went missing last May.

But it is claimed they already have the evidence for a case against Gerry and Kate McCann and expat suspect Robert Murat.

A police source said: "Most of the elements of proof have already been collected. We just want to reconfirm the statements made by the McCanns and their friends."
 
snip
The blood found in the McCanns car is from Madeline as well as the vestiges detected in the house rented by the British and from where the three years old child disappeared without a trace.


If this is true, then why haven't arrest been made?
In any other missing persons case, I doubt that important, confirmed blood evidence would be overlooked or tossed aside.
Again, if this article is true, what is LE waiting for?#?#?#?
 
Scandi - I am so hoping you are right. I have this feeling that they also know where Maddie is. However, I would caution that the Sunday Mail is not the most reliable of media outlets. While several other newspapers are carrying the story - they all seem to be quoting the British media. I generally don't find the information to be very reliable when that happens. OTOH - there have been several articles in the last two days that are favorable to the McCanns and that always seems to happen whenever a story is written implicating the McCanns.

Do you know if SOL has published anything recently?

Time will tell and I am eager to see what this coming week will bring.

Salem
 
Hi Calikid - nice to see you back, I've missed you in these cyberhalls. :)

Salem
 
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