Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

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The only thing these people were guilty of was naivety. They hadn't done a proper survey to ascertain how secure or not the resort was.

You don't need to do a proper survey to know that it's not advisable to leave small toddlers alone in an unlocked apartment you can't monitor, every parent's common sense should say that. However much you survey there is no resort on earth in which the dangers of fire, intruders, illness or children waking up scared and missing their parents do not exist.
 
The only thing these people were guilty of was naivety. They hadn't done a proper survey to ascertain how secure or not the resort was.

Did i just read that :facepalm:.

I am sure that the Mccanns would have never walked out of their own house, leave the door unlocked and leave three small children inside while they went out for dinner.

So why should it be any different abroad.
 
Did i just read that :facepalm:.

I am sure that the Mccanns would have never walked out of their own house, leave the door unlocked and leave three small children inside while they went out for dinner.

So why should it be any different abroad.

A single mum in our town was arrested for leaving her children whilst she went to the pub which was less then 50 yards from her house....one of the children had woken up and walked outside and someone found her crying.

One rule for one, and one for the other isnt it.
 
Even through numerous people waking in and out disturbing them. Not to mention that gerry mccann stated that the twins cried alot at night when they were disrurbed. Stated by both parents that all of the three children were light sleepers.

So they slept through, crying, loud talking, shouting, light being turned on and off, people entering and exiting room. Dorrs banging with people leaving. Cupboards being opened and closed....really.

I am a mum of four also and I know my kids would not have slept through all of that and they are good sleepers.

Mine wouldnt have slept through it , there is a squeeky floor board in my sons doorway and if I step on that he rolls over and sometimes wakes up . But then neither of mine would have slept through being lifted out of bed and carried away .
 
Hi All,
This is my first post on this site.
I followed Madeleine's case from the day1 and also read the case files when they came out.
The new developments really sound promising.
I don't really look into who to blame etc but what I would like is Madeline being found.
What I noticed last night is that Madeleine's passport expired in 2008 and thought whoever has her would need some kind of documentation for her in case she is ill, she travels, goes to school etc..

I would like to raise in here few aspects that I find interesting in this case and they are not being discussed at all :

1. Why the window was open?
In the first days of the inquiry it was reported that the shutter actually was opened from inside and the window too. To open this shutter from inside, one needs to operate the pull rope which is on the side of the wall. Has this rope been checked for DNA, can the textile rope be checked for DNA.
Also both JT suspect which now has been disqualified and Martin Smiths suspects were carrying the child in the opposite way, her head being on their left side. To pick up Madeleine from her bed she would be leaning on their right shoulder. To me this means Madeleine was handed to the person who carried her.
This again raises the question why the window was opened? Were there 2 people involved, one entering the apartment and the other being handed the child through the window?
2. There was a person of portuguese origin who back in 2007 went to PDL and made his own research, he wrote a blog with pictures included where he pictured the place where someone was standing and watching the apartment and this was in the garden of the house opposite to the apartment, one could see the steps on the ground.. Was this ever investigated?
3. Portuguese dogs search. In Madeleine McCann files there is report of Portuguese search dogs being brought to the scene twice. One right after she was found missing and that was at midnight the same night. They followed a scent of the live child around the building and to a car park. The Portuguese police repeated the dog search the next day and they with different dogs and the other dogs went the same way, stopping at the car park next to the Ocean Club reception. This route was different to the route Jane Tanner's e-fit was going and the dog trail was rubbished with some explanation.
4. Madeleine is not the only child who went missing in this area. There were 10ish children missing from the area, including a German boy, Rene Hase, who looked similar to Madeleine. Has there ever been a research about people who might have been in these same areas at the time, including Madeleine?
5. At the time it was also reported that Mark Warner staff, who comes to Portugal on 'work for peanuts and same time have holiday' basis, comes from all over the world and although they work with children they never have a proper security checks.Their past is not being checked, at least wasn't at the time.
They usually work in different world resorts and very soon after Madeleine disappeared the people who worked with her were re employed into Kos, Greece. I hope SY has proper lists of all the seasonal staff.
5. PDL has only 500 Portuguese residents and 500 expats, mostly British. IMO if something happens within this small crowd they very well know who and why..who is foreigner, who is there often, who is suspicious etc..During April, it is low season, not so many tourists as it would be in July, August, easier to spot those who don't belong there.

6. On google images of PDL there was a white lorry parked next to the apartment. Which company this lorry belongs to and who is the driver?
etc..etc.. I know this case inside out.. so I have 100s examples like this.. hope they were all investigated..
 
4. Madeleine is not the only child who went missing in this area. There were 10ish children missing from the area, including a German boy, Rene Hase, who looked similar to Madeleine. Has there ever been a research about people who might have been in these same areas at the time, including Madeleine?

Renee Haase went missing in 1996, eleven years before Maddie. I don't think these two cases are connected.
 
Renee Haase went missing in 1996, eleven years before Maddie. I don't think these two cases are connected.

There were cases in between, I once saw this list but cannot remember now, it was including nearby Spanish towns too.. around 10 children I think, if one could research this it would be great.. non of these children were ever found, including Rene Hase
 
Renee Haase went missing in 1996, eleven years before Maddie. I don't think these two cases are connected.

its actually a point that no one has ever mentioned

maybe we have a serial killer in the area who preyed over the years ?

unlikely I know - but would be interested to see that stats of disappeared children over the years in the vicinity
 
There were cases in between, I once saw this list but cannot remember now, it was including nearby Spanish towns too.. around 10 children I think, if one could research this it would be great.. non of these children were ever found, including Rene Hase

Have any children gone missing in the area since Madeleine?
 
http://www.algarveresident.com/51410-0/algarve/missing-children


Missing children
Updated: 31-May-2013

Criminal police in Portugal dealt with an average of six cases of missing children and youths a day last year, in a total of 2,366 cases. This is 226 fewer cases than in 2011. In total, 4,097 people were reported missing in 2012 and of those cases 1,677 were youths aged 15-18, 514 were aged 10-12 and 85 were aged up to nine. Twenty of these cases are still under investigation.

(Not sure which figure the twenty cases refers to - 20 of all missing persons cases? 20 of the children and youths? or the last group, 20 of the missing children up to nine? )
 
Thanks for this post. I was beginning to think that ScarlettScarpetta and I, were the only ones to believe that the MccAnns were innocent.
I think they are innocent too. I also think that there is a lot of cultural prejudice involved in this case. People would really LIKE the Mccanns to be guilty.

I stand by my simple explanation as to what happened. Maddie was stolen to order and taken to the sea front and whisked away by boat.

Has everyone forgotten Amaral was prosecuted for something or other and messed up another missing child case?
 
Just read about little boy Rui Pedro, Portuguese, hasn't his mum been sent photos of little boy being abused or similar? It was long ago, I cannot remember now but now I see the man responsible for his kidnap was caught.. he got only THREE YEARS jail.. and the boy is sill missing??
 
http://www.algarveresident.com/51410-0/algarve/missing-children


Missing children
Updated: 31-May-2013

Criminal police in Portugal dealt with an average of six cases of missing children and youths a day last year, in a total of 2,366 cases. This is 226 fewer cases than in 2011. In total, 4,097 people were reported missing in 2012 and of those cases 1,677 were youths aged 15-18, 514 were aged 10-12 and 85 were aged up to nine. Twenty of these cases are still under investigation.

(Not sure which figure the twenty cases refers to - 20 of all missing persons cases? 20 of the children and youths? or the last group, 20 of the missing children up to nine? )

Pretty good reason not to leave your kids alone.....
 
but " not cleared " doesnt exist in English Law ?? It is not a desicion that juries are asked to judge on . They are asked pretty straightforward questions - is the accused guilty or not guilty ? Actualy in scottish law there is a seperate finding of not proven - which might be closer to what you are perhaps looking at .

Say I was arrested for fraud because my firm though I had stolen money - but in the trial it was found the evidence to find me guilty was shaky and not legal and I am found not guilty - what does that mean then ? in my logic I am innocent of all charges and a free man
in the case we are discussion teh Mccans they were never ever charged anyway - so they had no charges to be cleared of - they were arguidos which is a legal term to give all people being interviewed legal rights,

Is the term "arguidos" the same as our (US) term "person of interest"?
 
In europe, there is a presumption of innocence. People do not need to prove their innocence, not even in court. They are presumed innocent, and it is for others to prove their guilt. Therefore anyone, including the mccanns, who are not found guilty are deemed innocent. They do not need to be formally declared innocent, hence the phrase cleared has no legally standing. Like Gord says the mccanns were never charged, and were only aguidos which is not the same as suspects (it just gives people legal rights when being interviewed, and is a status that people can request themselves), so there is no way they could be cleared any more thna they ever have been. The Pj says there is no evidence they are guilty, what more can be said. If someone is not guilty then they are innocent.

And a coronor can only hold an inquest if someone is declared dead, since madeleine is still legally alive as she has not been declared dead there can be no coronor's inquest. I do have a feeling that post Helen Smith who died in the KSA in 1979, UK coronors can hold inquests onto UK nationals who died abroad, but will ahve to double check that, it may just be that they can do PMs.

i think the libel cases are good, because it means people have to prove the claims they have made about the mccanns. If they cannot prove their claims it shows they have not a shred of evidence and have been lying. In portugal I believe the onus is on the claiments to disprove the libelous claims, which in the mccann case is still quite easy i.e they can prove that the dna found in the car was not likely to madeleine's like some have claimed etc. I know the madeleine foundations fifty fact leaflet has been debunked online, so that should be even easier to dispell in court.

In the mccann case, it is interesting that the PJ not only stated there was no evidence the mccanns had committed any crime, including that of neglect, but they also specifically stated they did not see how it was feasible for the mccanns to have hidden a body which they would had to have done if they were responsible for the disappearence. The head of operation grange has also stated that they believe a stranger was repsonsible so they have obviously ruled out the parents (since they are not strangers).

i disagree with the notion that someone found not guilty beyond all doubt in court is deemed more innocent that someone who has not even been charged, or not taken to trial. If someone is not taken to trial it is because there is not enough evidence against them, if someone is taken to trial it means there is more eveidence against them even if that evidence ends up not proving their guilt. Also in the UK a person foudn not guilty can face trial again if new evidence is found. The most recent example of this are the killers of stephen lawrence, who were originally found not guilty, the a decade later retried and found guilty.

The mccanns could though prove their innocence, by simply demonstrating the impossibility of their being able to hide a body in such a short time frame. That to me is the main sticking point, it just is not prossible for them to have hidden a body in such a short time, and so well with not a single witness. Whereas it is possible ten people saw a man abducting madeleine.

The mccanns are not the only people facing trial by anonymous people on the internet, but thanks to Lord McAlpine's legal actions the trend for making false accusations against people via twitter and the like may come to an end in the UK at least.

Interesting...libel laws in the U.S. differ from British laws and those of other Euroean countries-here, the plaintiff, or "libeled " party must prove that what has been written about them is untrue, and must show that they have been damaged.
 
To those who kindly responded to my post. Points taken on board, and I don't dispute the fact that the McCanns could have been a lot more careful. However I'm not my brother's keeper. and I'm not responsible for their actions. That is their prerogative. I'm only responsible for mine, and in the end that is ALL that I will judged for.

Now, turning to the original issue. From the Daily Mail:
"British police have also said they are certain that Mr McCann has nothing to do with his daughter’s disappearance."

That's it! The McCanns are not suspects. I wish I could say that this will be the end of the story, but, sigh, sadly I know it will not be.
 
I think they are innocent too. I also think that there is a lot of cultural prejudice involved in this case. People would really LIKE the Mccanns to be guilty.

I stand by my simple explanation as to what happened. Maddie was stolen to order and taken to the sea front and whisked away by boat.

Has everyone forgotten Amaral was prosecuted for something or other and messed up another missing child case?
I think they're innocent as well. If they weren't they'd have let the matter drop years ago, IMO.

I've always thought that the Portuguese investigation appeared to be a complete shambles, especially at the beginning. Also, it sometimes reminded me of the Ben Needham investigation, the little boy who disappeared in Greece. The Greek police behaved in a similar slow manner at the start and then during criticisms of their work started to shift the spotlight and blame on to the Needham family. I get the impression that these police forces really aren't as professional and as efficient as what they should be.

Also, even though it is rare, stranger abductions do happen and unfortunately I believe someone did see a pattern forming with regards to the children being left and then took their chance. At least one good thing might have come out of all this and that's people might be more careful now when holidaying at those type of resorts.

I've also always thought that Murat and Malinka should be more closely looked into, because I think there was supposed to have been a very short phone call between them both later that night, which I found odd. I think Murat said he couldn't remember the call and Malinka said he hadn't contacted Murat in a year. They must have lied if records of phone calls were found. I think in the Police Files it was also mentioned that Murat didn't originally mention but later claimed that he'd met with Malinka on May 2nd at 10 am at a Supermarket Cafe, claiming that he'd forgotten that when earlier interviewed. The date of the meeting seemed to conflict too between the pair. All very strange.
 
http://www.algarveresident.com/51410-0/algarve/missing-children


Missing children
Updated: 31-May-2013

Criminal police in Portugal dealt with an average of six cases of missing children and youths a day last year, in a total of 2,366 cases. This is 226 fewer cases than in 2011. In total, 4,097 people were reported missing in 2012 and of those cases 1,677 were youths aged 15-18, 514 were aged 10-12 and 85 were aged up to nine. Twenty of these cases are still under investigation.

(Not sure which figure the twenty cases refers to - 20 of all missing persons cases? 20 of the children and youths? or the last group, 20 of the missing children up to nine? )

This seems like a lot of missing children for a small country, doesn't it?
 
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