Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[Dlk79]

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Looking at that scenario, do you think it's likely that CB would have known what GM looked like? Or, what the set up was for the Tapas group in keeping an eye on the apartments?
CB would have been taking a big chance in walking down the same route visible to the road where they were walking. Did he assume GM would have been further down the road when he left?

In that hypoethical scenario, I'd say yes, the abductor would have assumed GM to be back at the table by that point. The conversation with JW was pure chance, had he not bumped into him he would have been back with the rest of the group when Tannerman crossed the road.

Hard to say whether he knew GM's face or the Tapas routines. If the abductor was forced to hide when GM entered, it might suggest perhaps not. But then again, his plan may have been to lie in wait in the apartment and as soon as the first check was done, make his move. Giving him the maximum amount of time possible to get away from scene before the discovery is made at the next check.

It would make sense that if the abduction was planned and that the apartment/Tapas group were being watched, the most logical time to strike would be immediately following a check.

 

[mrjitty]

Could be a case of mis-reporting, but the Mail did report early on that other calls were made on CBs phone during the abduction window.

He knew his way around Praia da Luz and apparently specialised in break-ins. He has also abused children in the past. The authorities also believe they know which mobile phone he used on May 3, 2007, 'with a probability bordering on certainty.'

The girl disappeared between 9:10 p.m. and 10 p.m. Calls were made during that period of time on the mobile phone in Praia da Luz. He cancelled his car registration the day after Madeleine's disappearance
Madeleine McCann suspect gave 'young girls drugs in exchange for sex'

If there are other calls in the data log, FF would probably have been able to access that evidence via Portuguese authorities. It may be that the other calls place him further away from the Ocean club and German LE have made no appeal on them since their focus is on placing CB at the scene, perhaps they even know who those calls were to.

If there are further pings, sounds like FF is working backwards to try to prove this 90 second window. I can't see how he can work out that window based on the call that finished at 8 o clock, even if CB was 6km away at the time of that call there's plenty of time to get to 5A before MM was last seen by GM.

As far as we know there is no "ping" or true locational data

Only connection info when the tower and phone connect for a call or message. I think what FF is saying is that the Azimuth data does not actually place CB in PdL - he could be up to 6km away from the tower.

Last year i sat through days of expert testimony on this in relation to the McStay case where there was also only connection/azimuth

All you really know is that the accused is somewhere within an arc - but the distance from the tower is essentially unknown.

 

[Chiatos]

Has Mathew ever been considered arguido?
P.J. POLICE FILES: GERRY MCCANN'S STATEMENT 10 MAY 2007

At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light was not from an artificial source inside the apartment, but perhaps something coming from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master' bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.
P.J. POLICE FILES: MATTHEW OLDFIELD'S STATEMENT 04 MAY 2007

Why couldn't he see MM's bed? Because he didn't reach up to the bedroom door?

 

[Chiatos]

Just considering this possibility, what IF Tannerman was actually CB? The 90 second window becomes quite understandable then. CB hiding in the apartment while GM is doing his check, then as he is talking to JW outside, CB exits 5A within 90 seconds carrying MM. Then travels a certain distance before his phone pings again. Not saying this is what I believe necessarily, but don't think it's impossible either.

I have no idea whether this has been mentioned before:
Tannerman resembles the Polish guy in P.J. POLICE FILES: NUNO LOURENCO

And his wife resembles:

 

[MENDEL]

I have no idea whether this has been mentioned before:
Tannerman resembles the Polish guy in P.J. POLICE FILES: NUNO LOURENCO

And his wife resembles:

DCI Andy Redwood accepted it was the father who claimed to have been there with his daughter from a creche nearby.

The Polish couple were investigated by Leicestershire, German and Polish LE and cleared.

 

[Chiatos]

DCI Andy Redwood accepted it was the father who claimed to have been there with his daughter from a creche nearby.

The Polish couple were investigated by Leicestershire, German and Polish LE and cleared.

They were cleared because they didn't fly back with MM.
And nothing else.

Why would any abductor take a flight back home together with the abducted child for everbody to see?

That's no proper clearance IMO.

 

[Anxala]

How can anyone prove that GM had not seen MM round 21.10?

The only thing (in the absence of GM himself saying he didn't actually see her on his check, if the case) that would prove it concretely is if evidence emerges that MM was gone from the apartment prior to that 9:05-10pm check.

 

[redplanet]

DCI Andy Redwood accepted it was the father who claimed to have been there with his daughter from a creche nearby.

The Polish couple were investigated by Leicestershire, German and Polish LE and cleared.

AR's understanding of the geography appears to be somewhat less than robust . I even wonder did he ever visit the apartment? And did he ever walk from the apartment to the evening kidsclub and back? Why does he fail to mention the 180 degrees directional difference?

 

[haden]

We do not even know the timeline FF is talking about.

Why would anyone question GM's timeline of events?

May I remind you CB became a suspect because he "admitted" to being involved? He admitted it not once but twice, possibly even to people who don't know each other.

He has a criminal record of doing similar stuff. His phone pings in the area and also "connects" to OC at the time of the crime.
Plus HCW has even "more proof" that he hasn't revealed.

And someone is still doubting it and trying to switch the blame on GM.

Gosh!

 

[Newthoughts]

We do not even know the timeline FF is talking about.

Why would anyone question GM's timeline of events?

May I remind you CB became a suspect because he "admitted" to being involved? He admitted it not once but twice, possibly even to people who don't know each other.

He has a criminal record of doing similar stuff. His phone pings in the area and also "connects" to OC at the time of the crime.
Plus HCW has even "more proof" that he hasn't revealed.

And someone is still doubting it and trying to switch the blame on GM.

Gosh!

Nobody is trying to shift the blame to GM. They're speculating on how FF has come up with CB only having 90 second window to abduct MM. So going back to the timings seems logical. Anything that pushes the time back gives him a greater window. In the absence of anything else the only clear things are when MM was last seen and when KM found her missing. That is the only period in which a 90 second window makes sense

If GM is out on time or mistaken in how well he checked - JWs statement for example gives a window of 8.45 to 9.15 for his conversation with GM - that could possibly give CB a larger window.

They were, after all checking that their kids were asleep and therefore ok. If abduction had even remotely crossed their mind they wouldn't have left their appt at all.

They had had an uneventful holiday and their checking system had worked. They were relaxed, they were enjoying themselves, they'd probably had a few drinks. and then they were in every parents worse nightmare. I'd imagine their first thought would be trying to search rather than what would seem to be wasting precious minutes going thru the timings of the night

 

[haden]

It was always thought MM was taken in between MO and KM checks. Because when MO was there the window wasn't opened and there was no draft.
MO was there at 9.30 pm and KM came in at 10 pm.
If the intruder was in all the time and hiding throughout all checks then 90 seconds would be enough for him to leave through the front doors.

How does FF know his clients phone pings? Was this possibly discussed at CB's first interview with German police? IMO FF can only see this file and know what was discussed during this interview and what his client said.

 

[MENDEL]

AR's understanding of the geography appears to be somewhat less than robust . I even wonder did he ever visit the apartment? And did he ever walk from the apartment to the evening kidsclub and back? Why does he fail to mention the 180 degrees directional difference?

AR traveled to PDL (pic).

I think that 180º was considered but I'm not sure and must search for that.

 

[peanutJelly]

Has Mathew ever been considered arguido?
P.J. POLICE FILES: GERRY MCCANN'S STATEMENT 10 MAY 2007

At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light was not from an artificial source inside the apartment, but perhaps something coming from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master' bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.
P.J. POLICE FILES: MATTHEW OLDFIELD'S STATEMENT 04 MAY 2007

Why couldn't he see MM's bed? Because he didn't reach up to the bedroom door?

But the same as most of the other tapas checks, they were checking if any of the children had awoken. I can understand them not going too much into the children’s bedroom as would defeat the objective of checking they’re not awake if you wake them up by checking!

 

[MENDEL]

We do not even know the timeline FF is talking about.

Why would anyone question GM's timeline of events?

May I remind you CB became a suspect because he "admitted" to being involved? He admitted it not once but twice, possibly even to people who don't know each other.

He has a criminal record of doing similar stuff. His phone pings in the area and also "connects" to OC at the time of the crime.
Plus HCW has even "more proof" that he hasn't revealed.

And someone is still doubting it and trying to switch the blame on GM.

Gosh!

Just one thing.

What's in discussion is evidence about CB. If you think a ping, two confessions and a promise is enough, perhaps others don't.

Is there anyone blaming GM or are they questioning what he saw? We're not talking about a saint (as far as I know) so as a human he can be questioned like everybody else.

 

[peanutJelly]

Nobody is trying to shift the blame to GM. They're speculating on how FF has come up with CB only having 90 second window to abduct MM. So going back to the timings seems logical. Anything that pushes the time back gives him a greater window. In the absence of anything else the only clear things are when MM was last seen and when KM found her missing. That is the only period in which a 90 second window makes sense

If GM is out on time or mistaken in how well he checked - JWs statement for example gives a window of 8.45 to 9.15 for his conversation with GM - that could possibly give CB a larger window.

They were, after all checking that their kids were asleep and therefore ok. If abduction had even remotely crossed their mind they wouldn't have left their appt at all.

They had had an uneventful holiday and their checking system had worked. They were relaxed, they were enjoying themselves, they'd probably had a few drinks. and then they were in every parents worse nightmare. I'd imagine their first thought would be trying to search rather than what would seem to be wasting precious minutes going thru the timings of the night

Agree with your post so much. We just need to bear in mind that in all the stress they did actually sit down to write out all the timings. If they’d be as diligent as they’d stated this wouldn’t have been necessary. They were at the end of a lovely holiday, and yes feeling relaxed. Thoughts of abduction were not there at all, hence them leaving any of the children without adult protection

 

[peanutJelly]

Just one thing.

What's in discussion is evidence about CB. If you think a ping, two confessions and a promise is enough, perhaps others don't.

Is there anyone blaming GM or are they questioning what he saw? We're not talking about a saint (as far as I know) so as a human he can be questioned like everybody else.

Yes agree Mendel, I don’t think anyone is blaming the parents. There’s lots of research available on false memories to support what is being said. GM has experienced an awful thing, it’s certainly possible that his memory recall is not 100% a reflection of what he did/ saw/ experienced

 

[snowpea666]

We do not even know the timeline FF is talking about.

Why would anyone question GM's timeline of events?

May I remind you CB became a suspect because he "admitted" to being involved? He admitted it not once but twice, possibly even to people who don't know each other.

He has a criminal record of doing similar stuff. His phone pings in the area and also "connects" to OC at the time of the crime.
Plus HCW has even "more proof" that he hasn't revealed.

And someone is still doubting it and trying to switch the blame on GM.

Gosh!

No one was accusing GM or putting blame on him, all that was being said was his timings, and how they could be a bit wrong, or maybe he was a bit mixed up due to events etc.

 

[snowpea666]

Yes agree Mendel, I don’t think anyone is blaming the parents. There’s lots of research available on false memories to support what is being said. GM has experienced an awful thing, it’s certainly possible that his memory recall is not 100% a reflection of what he did/ saw/ experienced

Absolutely, In my work I have seen this often, the mind is a funny thing, especially in trauma, yes the poor parents had to give statements but they were in no way able at that time to remember every tiny detail, sometimes it can take years to remember something, and sometimes never. Not being bad about the parents, it is what it is, but the guilt they must have felt would be overwhelming in itself along with the fact she was gone, so so sad.

 

[redplanet]

AR traveled to PDL (pic).

I think that 180º was considered but I'm not sure and must search for that.

Many photos of AR in the mound search area, and possibly in another of the SY search areas, and maybe in Portimao, but I have never seen a single photo of him anywhere near the apartment.

 

[redplanet]

".... he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didnt put his head round the door to see if M was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into G and Ks room, just ...."
P.J. POLICE FILES: RACHAEL OLDFIELD'S ROGATORY
IMO it's clear to me that MO saw enough of M's bed to form an opinion that there was probably no child in it. That is the only way IMO to logically explain what follows: "did wonder where she slept" and "looked into G and Ks room".