Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #22

[C.greek]

Just been reading back over the last couple of pages and the issues raised. My thoughts (and we know what they're worth ) are as follows:

1. I agree with the concerns raised over the nature of the BKA's investigation and, in particular, as its primary mouthpiece, HCW. This mix of restrained 'We know this for sure but we can't say anything more at this point' evasiveness on his part is very at odds with his readiness to chat so regularly with the absolute lowest dregs of the most unrestrained UK tabloids.

2. I believe that HCW absolutely believes, based on something he's privvy to, that CB is responsible for 'something' to do with MM. But that's it. 'Something'.

3. I do, nevertheless, hope that HCW gets all his ducks in a row and gets to actually question CB, just so we might finally get to know what he apparently knows.

4. That CB might turn out not to be responsible for anything MM-related does not mean, necessarily, that there's another unknown, evading-capture, evil fiend still out there. There are other possible, objective alternatives that don't involve mystery evil fiends.

What "objective alternatives" are there?

 

[Anxala]

What "objective alternatives" are there?

Ones I believe continue to have merit from the original investigation. And I'm surprised at the willingness on here with which past ambiguities have been completely glossed over in the rush to grab and take hold of CB's allegedly guilty feet.

 

[Ardoch]

Ones I believe continue to have merit from the original investigation. And I'm surprised at the willingness on here with which past ambiguities have been completely glossed over in the rush to grab and take hold of CB's allegedly guilty feet.

Could you be a bit clearer? We're sleuthers - we need something to work on

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

You said many times that CB is your ONLY interrest, and now you don't care about him?

CB is NOT my only interest. I did wrirte on this thread because you guys were discussing CB and I did want to state what I do think.

4. That CB might turn out not to be responsible for anything MM-related does not mean, necessarily, that there's another unknown, evading-capture, evil fiend still out there. There are other possible, objective alternatives that don't involve mystery evil fiends.

Right on ! Not "only" for MM but for the other cases where CB could have a "link". This is why I do wish that CB is "cleared", not because I would want for MM to have been "abducted" by another perp or even one that it's worse than CB but because if CB is "guilty" then MM was "murdered" by someone horrible in a very bad way, if CB is cleared there might be still some hope that she died in another way.

And now you say - "ok, get real - it was a pedophile that got MM so if CB is not the one it was another pedophile" .... Yes it might be true ... BUT ... ON OTHER CASES chances are HIGHER for other type of cause of death / disapearence and that is my "wishful thinking" for the ones that I do care for.

Guess that I did talk too much now.

 

[snowpea666]

CB is NOT my only interest. I did wrirte on this thread because you guys were discussing CB and I did want to state what I do think.



Right on ! Not "only" for MM but for the other cases where CB could have a "link". This is why I do wish that CB is "cleared", not because I would want for MM to have been "abducted" by another perp or even one that it's worse than CB but because if CB is "guilty" then MM was "murdered" by someone horrible in a very bad way, if CB is cleared there might be still some hope that she died in another way.

And now you say - "ok, get real - it was a pedophile that got MM so if CB is not the one it was another pedophile" .... Yes it might be true ... BUT ... ON OTHER CASES chances are HIGHER for other type of cause of death / disapearence and that is my "wishful thinking" for the ones that I do care for.

Guess that I did talk too much now.

Ok, understandable, so you say hope that she could have died in another way, so how ? where is her body ? because she was last seen in the apartment so if she met her end in that apartment innocently then why was her body missing ? or did she run away ? ! if someone took her for a childless person two beautiful younger kids lay beside her ? and I think at 17 now she may have wondered if she is MM, her eye, no baby pics etc, prob flashbacks, all possible but IMO not. so please as Iam interested in your opinion.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Ones I believe continue to have merit from the original investigation. And I'm surprised at the willingness on here with which past ambiguities have been completely glossed over in the rush to grab and take hold of CB's allegedly guilty feet.

Bumping my Admin Note from the Opening Posts of this thread:

Read all Opening Posts and post accordingly.

This thread is for discussion of CB as the suspect. It is not to rehash all old info unless you can specifically tie it to CB as the suspect.

The next member to suggest the parents had involvement in or are somehow responsible for Madeleine's disappearance will be permanently banned from this discussion.

I’m not sure the ambiguities have been “glossed over,” rather the forum rules don’t permit GA’s main theory.

I wouldn’t rule out anything and certainly IMO the McCann’s actions immediately after the disappearance and the inaccuracies in some of key witness statements seem unusual, reading this forum however has swayed my belief that the McCanns are innocent of any involvement of MM’s disappearance. Please don’t ask me to explain the McCann’s strategy to control things or the inaccuracies in statements, I can’t.

I simply think that GA’s alternative, as discussed in the Netflix documentary, that the whole Tapas group is involved is, IMO, complete nonsense. Keeping all nine people quiet, the logistics of secretly disposing of the body and the mental strength required to maintain the pretence under such close scrutiny make this theory seem completely implausible IMO.

Someone on this forum shared the below article - sorry, I can’t remember who. It’s written by BO, partner of JW. She was obviously there at the time and I think she sets the scene very well. The below statement, to me expresses the real anguish experienced at the time by the McCanns:

“It was a shock: the physical transformation of these two human beings was sickening - I felt it as a physical blow. Kate's back and shoulders, her hands, her mouth had reshaped themselves in to the angular manifestation of a silent scream.”

I’m taking HCW’s word that he has strong evidence on CB and irrespective of how awful MM’s plight, I think that the truth and properly putting the story of the poor little girl to rest is the most important thing.

Bridget O'Donnell on her time with Madeleine McCann in Portugal

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Ok, understandable, so you say hope that she could have died in another way, so how ? where is her body ? because she was last seen in the apartment so if she met her end in that apartment innocently then why was her body missing ? or did she run away ? ! if someone took her for a childless person two beautiful younger kids lay beside her ? and I think at 17 now she may have wondered if she is MM, her eye, no baby pics etc, prob flashbacks, all possible but IMO not. so please as Iam interested in your opinion.

Re-read my post prior to yours. Maybe in case of MM if we exclude the GA theory we are left with very few alternatives; yes you are correct. The same doesn't apply on the case that does interest me. If I can rule out for SURE external prep entering the zone to "abduct" the little one there are many other possibilities that even if involve a crime (of hidding the body) might include accidents that lead to a fast-death without suffering. Even if there was AN INTERNAL predator/killer/pedophile on the case that i'm interested in the margin of time is way to low to abuse/kill/get rid of the body so even if that was the case the little one died very fast on the same day.

If you consider an "outsider" like a CB entering a remote place same as a CB entering the Ocean Club for that matter to "extract" the little one from there you can assume that if he does manage to place the child outside the zone of the abduction he can do whatever he wants for as long as he wants (to the victim) including as it was stated pass her on to other abusers/etc.

If an "adbduction" or disapearance is "contained" on a certain spot and there were no-one entering in and exiting out the time frame for the killing and body disposable (assuming it was a crime to start with) is way lower meaning less suffering for the child.

Don't think that I do need to "draw a picture" so that you guys can figure out what my concearns are as it should be quite obviouse. Just re-read all of what I did write so far. Thats it.

 

[Okapi]

Re-read my post prior to yours. Maybe in case of MM if we exclude the GA theory we are left with very few alternatives; yes you are correct. The same doesn't apply on the case that does interest me. If I can rule out for SURE external prep entering the zone to "abduct" the little one there are many other possibilities that even if involve a crime (of hidding the body) might include accidents that lead to a fast-death without suffering. Even if there was AN INTERNAL predator/killer/pedophile on the case that i'm interested in the margin of time is way to low to abuse/kill/get rid of the body so even if that was the case the little one died very fast on the same day.

If you consider an "outsider" like a CB entering a remote place same as a CB entering the Ocean Club for that matter to "extract" the little one from there you can assume that if he does manage to place the child outside the zone of the abduction he can do whatever he wants for as long as he wants (to the victim) including as it was stated pass her on to other abusers/etc.

If an "adbduction" or disapearance is "contained" on a certain spot and there were no-one entering in and exiting out the time frame for the killing and body disposable (assuming it was a crime to start with) is way lower meaning less suffering for the child.

Don't think that I do need to "draw a picture" so that you guys can figure out what my concearns are as it should be quite obviouse. Just re-read all of what I did write so far. Thats it.

Just a heads up that on this forum the McCanns are NOT implicated in any crime.

That said, could you please state categorically what you think likely happened if the crime was "contained" in the apartment? Trying to follow your argument.

 

[soap mama]

This case has always overwhelmed me over the years, but i just finished the Netflix doc and feel (a little) more in control of all that has happened, and am catching up with the CB angle.

i think PJ wanted a narrative to protect the tourism industry, and that left a lot of good sleuthing to not be done in the first few hours and days.

Sadly, MM was probably sold by traffickers, CB involvement? That distinctive right eye may have made her expendable, as it was too distinctive.

 

[Nikolai_ff]

Hey everybody. Noob sleuth here. Just got back from PDL (took a detour while visiting Algarve for family reasons). Some thoughts in no particular order.

1. More of a comment really. Streets in PDL are very boxed in, fences and walls everywhere. Once you are on the street, there is nowhere to hide for long, long stretches.

2. The open/jimmied up window in the apartment. I took as close look as to not look like a creep. Per moi, it was NOT done to get in or especially out with a child. More like it would let in natural light so that he could move around without lighting a light in the children’s bedroom. Also to listen in case somebody was in the parking lot while he was inside. So a question is... Did he have a key to the front door? (I believe I read it was a weird/unusual design)

3. No way somebody could have taken the child out to sea. The cliffs farming the beach are steep, there are major rocks and plenty of bars/restaurants on the beach. No way for Jerry to have moved the body in a short time span and not look flustered out of breath to the rest of the tapas 7 (if that was not already blindingly obvious already) without a car there is literally nowhere to go. Even empty lots are ringed with high fences.

4. Confirmed through archival footage - the parking lot used to be tree-lined/shaded unlike today when it is completely naked and open.

Most Important.

5. If I am not mistaken - the girl was taken on the penultimate day of the vacation. This is extremely significant. Why? The longest possible time to establish patterns. Why not last night? Families, especially with children, tend to have weird last nights. Mom can stay behind to start packing. Early flights mean early rises/bed times including for parents or inverse special dinner where kids are brought too. This brings to...

6. IF the perp was indeed watching the family. I know from where. There’s a structure just across the road, a kind of walled in space that houses the gas tank or some kind of tank. From outside you can’t see in BUT from inside no problem there are holes in the bricks that give good visibility onto the 5A and comings and goings of parents. HOWEVER in the past year or two the structure was torn down and a new one erected that is mostly fencing rather than brick walls and is see through from outside too. Curious? Suspicious? Google Street View still has the old structure. Anybody hiding inside the old one and somehow spotted would have been just assumed to be some kind of repairman.

 

[Nikolai_ff]

As for who did it and what do ze Germans have on CB that makes them very confident he is responsible but not enough to charge him. Occam’s razor states they have pictures of her body on some device belonging to CB but with no metadata. Basically 99% certain it was him. Why not a slam dunk? In a case like this you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. A good lawyer will claim he downloaded the pics from dark web for money from somebody else.

However! I have a far out yet completely plausible theory on how they came onto CB in the first place (based on German prosecutor’s interview with that Australian podcast lad Suki-fuky or whatever his name is) apparently they started looking 2 years ago and here’s the take.

The reward for finding Maddy dead or alive is 2.5 million GBP. What if CB, who knows where the body is right now, decided on a scheme to get the reward by reaching out to his DarkNet pals and offering to split the money with them if they helped him by reaching out to the police? With crypto currency this is eminently doable. Possibly some cops were infiltrated into the pedo network and reported on it.

Seriously though, I think they have pics but without the metadata to connect to CB. It is possible that they even found deleted pics that had Maddy on them, that is not too hard to do. Companies specialize in this for when you accidentally wipe your hard drive.


Oh, some very intelligent takes on this site. I had the misfortune of being on another Maddy forum and they are all mouth frothing morons there, Amanda Knox haters-tier. The dogs! The DOOOOOGS!!!! No body - no abduction!!!!!! (Hey moron, that’s why they call it abduction. If there’s a body - it’s murder.)

PS Pat Brown is a witch.

 

[Ardoch]

"Hans Christian Wolters had told the podcast They've Taken Her: 'At the moment our evidence is not so strong we are sure he will be sentenced by the court.

'Maybe we need one witness who can tell us the things we don't know.'

Madeleine McCann prime suspect Christian Brueckner, 43, WILL be questioned, prosecutors say | Daily Mail Online

Anyone heard "They've Taken Her" podcast? - link in that article.

 

[mrjitty]

Someone on this forum shared the below article - sorry, I can’t remember who. It’s written by BO, partner of JW. She was obviously there at the time and I think she sets the scene very well. The below statement, to me expresses the real anguish experienced at the time by the McCanns:

“It was a shock: the physical transformation of these two human beings was sickening - I felt it as a physical blow. Kate's back and shoulders, her hands, her mouth had reshaped themselves in to the angular manifestation of a silent scream.”

I’m taking HCW’s word that he has strong evidence on CB and irrespective of how awful MM’s plight, I think that the truth and properly putting the story of the poor little girl to rest is the most important thing.

Bridget O'Donnell on her time with Madeleine McCann in Portugal

Thanks for posting it - I found it interesting back at the time, in terms of an overall kind of confirmation as to how things worked that week for "the Drs". But it's interesting how little detail there is about the arrangements. It's also disappointing in it's general tone of "why weren't things done how I would have expected"

Starting with the last point first

"Maddie: the secret witness," said the headline, "TV boss holds vital clue to the mystery." Unfortunately, Jes does not hold any such vital clues. In November, he inched through the events of that May night with Leicestershire detectives, but he saw nothing suspicious, nothing that would further the investigation.

This is really the key detail. Jes didn't see anything to do with the abduction and doesn't know anything useful. That is why he was canvassed by police on day 1, but not made a priority for an interview. His importance only became apparent later - but that wouldn't have been obvious in the first hours and days when the priority is to find a live girl.

The British police came round shortly after our return. Jes was pleased to give them a statement. The Portuguese police had never asked.

This is typical of the snide UK coverage which doesn't hold up to a moment's analysis. OC worked on holiday weeks. So Jes left on Saturday like many other guests. That means he could have been interviewed on Friday but why would PJ prioritise that when he already said he wasn't a key witness? Instead he was picked up as the investigation broadened out - and of course was interviewed by the UK police, likely at request of PJ, because PJ are not allowed to question witnesses in the UK - that interview took place on 7 May.

There is nothing untoward here, as the main point of talking to Jez is to begin work on firming up the timeline, which of course PJ only had in detail by the 4th or 5th anyway, once they had interviewed all the key witnesses.

Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook. Then he pointed to the photocopied picture of Madeleine on the table. "Is this your daughter?" he asked. "Er, no," we said. "That's the girl you are meant to be searching for." My heart sank for the McCanns.

Again this is focussed on as some kind of proof of incompetence but the policeman is not there to "search for MM" - he is there on a basic canvassing

I've been canvassed by Hamburg murder police before. We live in innercity high density housing. They rang my door, had a flyer about someone who got stabbed locally some weeks before. I said I knew nothing about it. They left and took no notes whatsoever!

Locals and holidaymakers had started circulating photocopied pictures of Madeleine, while others continued searching the beaches and village apartments. People were talking about what had happened or sat silently, staring blankly. We didn't see any police.

Why would you see any police? Shall they search the village streets where there are lots of people "sitting around" and where MM clearly isn't?

In the end, JW's main significance is as GM's alibi. Otherwise he doesn't know anything. I just don't get quite what people expect.

 

[mrjitty]

Occam’s razor states they have pictures of her body on some device belonging to CB but with no metadata.

RSBM

Occam's Razor prefers the simplest theory or the one with least assumptions/elements

It can't support inventing a new fact for which we have zero confirmation - that's 2 or 3 assumptions you are adding.

"pictures of a body"
"on a device belonging to CB"
"no meta data"

We know HCW tells us he has some secret evidence, but I don't think Occam's Razor can tell us anything about what it is.

 

[mrjitty]

"Hans Christian Wolters had told the podcast They've Taken Her: 'At the moment our evidence is not so strong we are sure he will be sentenced by the court.

'Maybe we need one witness who can tell us the things we don't know.'

Madeleine McCann prime suspect Christian Brueckner, 43, WILL be questioned, prosecutors say | Daily Mail Online

Anyone heard "They've Taken Her" podcast? - link in that article.

Yes - we discussed this interview before.

It's quite revealing IMO.

 

[mrjitty]

What "objective alternatives" are there?

Abduction by someone else for unknown reasons? e.g a crazy person rather than a predator?

Something like this happened in the states recently IIRC

 

[Okapi]

Hey everybody. Noob sleuth here. Just got back from PDL (took a detour while visiting Algarve for family reasons). Some thoughts in no particular order.

1. More of a comment really. Streets in PDL are very boxed in, fences and walls everywhere. Once you are on the street, there is nowhere to hide for long, long stretches.

2. The open/jimmied up window in the apartment. I took as close look as to not look like a creep. Per moi, it was NOT done to get in or especially out with a child. More like it would let in natural light so that he could move around without lighting a light in the children’s bedroom. Also to listen in case somebody was in the parking lot while he was inside. So a question is... Did he have a key to the front door? (I believe I read it was a weird/unusual design)

3. No way somebody could have taken the child out to sea. The cliffs farming the beach are steep, there are major rocks and plenty of bars/restaurants on the beach. No way for Jerry to have moved the body in a short time span and not look flustered out of breath to the rest of the tapas 7 (if that was not already blindingly obvious already) without a car there is literally nowhere to go. Even empty lots are ringed with high fences.

4. Confirmed through archival footage - the parking lot used to be tree-lined/shaded unlike today when it is completely naked and open.

Most Important.

5. If I am not mistaken - the girl was taken on the penultimate day of the vacation. This is extremely significant. Why? The longest possible time to establish patterns. Why not last night? Families, especially with children, tend to have weird last nights. Mom can stay behind to start packing. Early flights mean early rises/bed times including for parents or inverse special dinner where kids are brought too. This brings to...

6. IF the perp was indeed watching the family. I know from where. There’s a structure just across the road, a kind of walled in space that houses the gas tank or some kind of tank. From outside you can’t see in BUT from inside no problem there are holes in the bricks that give good visibility onto the 5A and comings and goings of parents. HOWEVER in the past year or two the structure was torn down and a new one erected that is mostly fencing rather than brick walls and is see through from outside too. Curious? Suspicious? Google Street View still has the old structure. Anybody hiding inside the old one and somehow spotted would have been just assumed to be some kind of repairman.

Welcome @Nikolai_ff , you've raised some interesting points there. I've never heard reference to that tank structure before. Anyone else?

Spying on the family wouldn't necessarily alert the perp that it was their penultimate night; if he had that information it may have come from inside knowledge i.e. someone who worked at the Ocean Club. Just MOO. But I agree that it appears the perpetrator was across the family's holiday routines.

 

[mrjitty]

Welcome @Nikolai_ff , you've raised some interesting points there. I've never heard reference to that tank structure before. Anyone else?

Spying on the family wouldn't necessarily alert the perp that it was their penultimate night; if he had that information it may have come from inside knowledge i.e. someone who worked at the Ocean Club. Just MOO. But I agree that it appears the perpetrator was across the family's holiday routines.

It's common knowledge that these places tend to work on holiday weeks. e.g. arrive on Saturday afternoon/leave on Saturday morning = 7 nights

You don't need to have the place under observation to know that

 

[mrjitty]

Funny how people are questioning the reason for BKA investigating CB over MM. Isn't that their duty once someone passes them the evidence?

SY attained the HB confession in 2017, but despite MM being British, they have zero jurisdiction in this case. The crime took place in Portugal and the suspect is German. The evidence HB gave them, while being compelling, is clearly not enough to raise a charge on and therefore clearly not enough to extradite him to the UK to be questioned or charged. So it makes perfect sense they appeal to their German counterparts to see what they know (and can do). And to be clear, we don't actually know what conversations have taken place between the various agencies but I suspect those conversations are what led to BKA taking the lead here.

When this information was given to SY in 2017, CB was himself the subject of an European Arrest Warrant to be extradited back to Germany to face charges of sexually abusing his former partner's little daughter. He was finally detained following the playground incident (another paedophile act) in Portugal in 2017 and jailed for 15 months. So when this all kicked off, CB was being dealt with by the German authorities. They had him in jail for the abuse, and were in the process of building the drug case against him for the Sylt shenanigans before he did a flit in 2018 and got extradited again from Milan to face the charges in Germany.

As for why PJ have not just been passed this information, given the crime took place in Portugal, so that they can investigate themselves...? I think that's pretty obvious. They have absolutely no incentive to prove CB is guilty of anything. This case has caused immeasurable damage to their image and their tourism industry, they simply want it to be forgotten about. The same question could also be asked about the DM rape case. It happened in Portugal and the Portuguese were the ones who had the hair that convicted him, by the same token, BKA could have just passed on the HB and MS accounts about the rape videos and left them deal with it. They didn't. They applied for a EAW and charged him in Germany to be tried in court. IMO, the main reason is that neither BKA or SY have much faith in PJ, I don't want to come across as xenophobic but I just don't think their attitude to police work is on the same level as the British or the Germans. Nor is their motivation when it comes to the MM case. It's made especially worse due to HB's claim that he actually told the Portuguese authorities about the CB confession (which is what kickstarted this whole investigation) back in 2008, and they did absolutely nothing about it.

Amaral spoke about CB (although not mentioned by name, it was clear he knew who he was) well before this case became public knowledge. How does a retired and disgraced Investigator attain this knowledge? IMO, it's because the PJ is like an old boy's club and quite frankly, leakier than the sources close to the "McCann's". They simply can't be trusted to investigate this case impartially or fairly. And, that's probably one of the biggest contention points in this case and why there is such bad blood between the different agencies.

I agree it's all about competing incentives.

PJ archived the case 12 years ago. They don't want it.

The Met never wanted Operation Grange, and it has dragged on for nearly a decade. CB provides a good path for them to wind down to whatever support HCW needs, and close down, if they believe there are no persons of interest in jurisdiction. To be fair, the Met don't seem to have leaked to the media much down the years, but of course the UK tabloids are always full of nonsense and saucy leaks when it comes to this case.

One suspects BKA/HCW therefore have little trust/faith in either of their partners

 

[redplanet]

RSBM

Occam's Razor prefers the simplest theory or the one with least assumptions/elements

It can't support inventing a new fact for which we have zero confirmation - that's 2 or 3 assumptions you are adding.

"pictures of a body"
"on a device belonging to CB"
"no meta data"

We know HCW tells us he has some secret evidence, but I don't think Occam's Razor can tell us anything about what it is.

HCW reportedly said this:
"It is possible that our suspect filmed something in connection with Madeleine but we haven’t got direct evidence that he did."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11832635/madeleine-mccann-prosecutors-sun-suspect-christian-b/