Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #24

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We did discuss at length here, the possibility of whether CB may have killed MM in the apartment itself as part of a botched abuse attempt. Either inadvertently or through panic, with the most likely scenario in either event being suffocation, which leaves no forensic trace (or evidence of death) without the actual body.

I'm not necessarily saying that's what I think happened, but I've yet to see or hear anything that contradicts the possibility conclusively. There were a lot of posts where this option was debated in depth but I've linked one here which summarises some of the thinking behind it (which was nothing to do with the dog alerts I should add, which I concede could be completely coincidental/false). It was mostly instigated by my observation that HCW doesn't appear to have once mentioned a "kidnap" or "abduction" in any interview or statement he's made (he only ever talks about a murder and of "possible" abuse) which I find quite odd and deliberate when you compare to all the other LE investigators over the years who mention MM's "abduction" repeatedly. But since an adbuction requires the person to be alive when they were taken, the possibility that she was already dead might make sense of why he doesn't ever mention those words if that's what they believe happened.

Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

On the point of how much time CB would have had in the apartment, it's very difficult to say but if he was able to hide during one of the checks, he might well have been in there for up to an hour (we know he was quite a risk taker when it comes to his perversions). I still remain sceptical about MO's check in particular too. MO seemed put out that GM went to check around 9 even though he'd just told him that he had checked at MM's window and all was fine. He obviously thought that level of check was sufficient and therefore I think it's possible that it was the window check he did again at 9.30 rather than going into 5A via the patio door as he claimed. As for potentially jeopardising the investigation by not coming clean about it, it's clear that the Tapas group all thought the intruder had broken in through the window so he might have thought that this must happened after he checked at that same window at 9.30 anyway (assuming that's what he did). Plus it wouldn't be good for him to admit he lied. Possibly irrelevant though as by his own admission MO states he only barely entered the apartment and didn't really look into MM's room so it's very possible an intruder was already in there without him noticing.

As for leaving DNA/forensic traces, the length of time he was there makes little difference. Particularly since we know he was very careful and practiced in avoiding leaving DNA evidence at the scene. The same goes for traces/evidence of death if MM was suffocated/strangled. Almost all of the forensic DNA tests done on 5A were done on hairs found and incidentally they found no trace hairs of several people who were known to have been in that apartment for lengthy periods of time, so there's no reason to think that CB "must" have left anything behind either.

Admittedly, it's all speculation, but I'm not ruling the possibility out just yet. Let's just hope this year brings some real answers though and the breakthrough in the investigation we've been looking for.

Good to see a lot of the gang sticking with the thread!

Sometimes I've wondered if MM ( and possibly twins also ) could have been temporarily incapacitated in 5A by a cloth soaked in a potent substance of some sort , held for a short while over mouth .
However I believe most such agents would leave a srong noticeable odour .
Curious if anyone knows if there are "knock -out " agents / substances that would not leave an odour..?
Could CO gas be administered somehow..? That's odourless..reckon fairly easily available .
Would of course have involved careful premeditation and planning .
…afaik…there were no reports of smells by those who went into 5A after event .
 
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I wasn't sure if we had discussed before, and as you say that was about phones of the tapas crew, but it did say that they trawled through them for there numbers as thinking they was going to be the only relevant people, at that time.
however, the investigators went through them again years later when discovering about CB, and found that his cell number was there, not sure of the year this was found, without looking, so if they still have that data, they can look for the days after etc
My understanding is that early on in the investigation, PJ pulled complete phone logs of several key persons of interest in the case including the Tapas group. This included ping data (periodic pings which take place while your phone is on to show where you are located in relation to cell masts at various intervals) as well as logs of all incoming texts and calls, regardless of where they took place.

A little later in the investigation in 2007/2008, PJ then obtained a "cell dump" which was simply a basic log of all calls and texts that went through the cell masts of PDL over a 3 day period (2nd to the 4th May). This covered 74,104 texts and calls where at least one of the phones was in the vicinity of a PDL mast but it did not include ping data. You can think of the data as what you might see on a basic phone bill: numbers, times and length of call. We don't know whether it included azimuth data or not.

The issue the investigators had was that many of the numbers (including CB's) were unregistered pay as you go phones and so difficult to trace back to an owner, particularly when there were so many numbers to check.

The breakthrough came in 2017 when BKA began investigating CB. It was reported on the ITV documentary last July that in the process of interviewing key witnesses following the alleged "bar confession", they became aware of a phone number CB was known to have used at the time. BKA passed this number to Scotland Yard who had the cell dump data and a cross check then found that half hour call made on the night of the 3rd. What hasn't been confirmed or denied is whether there were any further instances of CB's phone cropping up in that 3 day period.

I've not seen any official source claim the latest evidence is phone records so it could be yet another rumour. And I struggle to think where they could have obtained those logs as it couldn't have come from the cell dump (they already had that) and you'd think records at the cell company would (or at least, should) have been destroyed after this amount of time. They might have found paper/email copies I suppose but I still think it might just be tabloid rumour.
 
Sometimes I've wondered if MM ( and possibly twins also ) could have been temporarily incapacitated in 5A by a cloth soaked in a potent substance of some sort , held for a short while over mouth .
However I believe most such agents would leave a srong noticeable odour .
Curious if anyone knows if there are "knock -out " agents / substances that would not leave an odour..?
Could CO gas be administered somehow..? That's odourless..reckon fairly easily available .
Would of course have involved careful premeditation and planning .
…afaik…there were no reports of smells by those who went into 5A after event .

What about using a shringe, with something in it, would cause no smell or residue?
Also thinking that it was patio doors, everyone used for the checks, as had it been the front door would they not of noticed the shutters or window open?
 
POLICE probing Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are to take a key witness back to Portugal.

The man, who we are not identifying, provided German officers with the identity of prime suspect Christian B.

Madeleine McCann cops to take key witness back to Portugal in bid to crack case
Found this quite interesting. Why would they need to take the man to various locations to help them find evidence? What is it the man can tell them by being there that they could not just search for themselves?

Could it be that this person has perhaps seen something (on a video or pictures) and does not know where this location is, but might recognise it if taken there for a look around?
 
Sometimes I've wondered if MM ( and possibly twins also ) could have been temporarily incapacitated in 5A by a cloth soaked in a potent substance of some sort , held for a short while over mouth .
However I believe most such agents would leave a srong noticeable odour .
Curious if anyone knows if there are "knock -out " agents / substances that would not leave an odour..?
Could CO gas be administered somehow..? That's odourless..reckon fairly easily available .
Would of course have involved careful premeditation and planning .
…afaik…there were no reports of smells by those who went into 5A after event .

Nitrous oxide?
 
Nitrous oxide?

Just been reading N2O can be used as an anaesthetic .
Although I mentioned it myself I think that use of a gas in MM case is probably unlikely…but who knows I guess..!?
 
Hmm...according to a possible small time window, i wouldn't put too much energy in possible "tranquilizers".

Maybe it has been just something like duct tape has been more useful, if something has to be done quick.
 
Hmm...according to a possible small time window, i wouldn't put too much energy in possible "tranquilizers".

Maybe it has been just something like duct tape has been more useful, if something has to be done quick.

Possible indeed yes..for MM .
Earlier I was trying to source a scenario to account somehow for twins sleeping through all commotion also ..maybe like many kids they were just good sleepers ?
 
Possible indeed yes..for MM .
Earlier I was trying to source a scenario to account somehow for twins sleeping through all commotion also ..maybe like many kids they were just good sleepers ?

Maybe yes, maybe no. IMO it doesn't matter. The child is gone, unfortuneatly and the prosecutors aren't investigating an abduction. The child went missing from 5A. There are so many possibilities how and why. Even a possible breach in the assumed tapas 7/9 story.

The fact is, the child is gone. HCW doesn't seem to me, as if the question how it has happened, could be crucial. JMO

Does it matter, if the child went lost in 30 minutes, one hour or two hours? That shouldn't be the focus of the prosecuters. The child went missing, thats the fact!

Obviously the possible time window could (!) be crucial!
 
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It’s getting even more interesting. I was reading RM pJ file and there in his contacts. AP. CB ex-(girl)friend. Mentioned in file that they talk frequently and she’s from germany. CB attacked her daughter and will be trialed. another link. American lady is there just to remind those who forget.
 
It’s getting even more interesting. I was reading RM pJ file and there in his contacts. AP. CB ex-(girl)friend. Mentioned in file that they talk frequently and she’s from germany. CB attacked her daughter and will be trialed. another link. American lady is there just to remind those who forget.

I have never fully exonerated him in my mind. What a find, we'll done.
 
It’s getting even more interesting. I was reading RM pJ file and there in his contacts. AP. CB ex-(girl)friend. Mentioned in file that they talk frequently and she’s from germany. CB attacked her daughter and will be trialed. another link. American lady is there just to remind those who forget.
CB has already been convicted and has served his sentence for the abuse of AP's daughter and possession of child *advertiser censored*. After his release he went to Milan where he was arrested on an international warrant for drug trafficking offences.
 
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Hi @Dlk79

Good to see you again!

I still remain sceptical about MO's check in particular too. MO seemed put out that GM went to check around 9 even though he'd just told him that he had checked at MM's window and all was fine. He obviously thought that level of check was sufficient and therefore I think it's possible that it was the window check he did again at 9.30 rather than going into 5A via the patio door as he claimed.

This is something I have been playing around with. What if the CB confession contradicts Tapas' canon? This could cause problems for HCW's case.

As for potentially jeopardising the investigation by not coming clean about it, it's clear that the Tapas group all thought the intruder had broken in through the window so he might have thought that this must happened after he checked at that same window at 9.30 anyway (assuming that's what he did). Plus it wouldn't be good for him to admit he lied. Possibly irrelevant though as by his own admission MO states he only barely entered the apartment and didn't really look into MM's room so it's very possible an intruder was already in there without him noticing.

I think this is exactly what happened. They all contaminated each others evidence.
 
When I watched again the video of Italian police. The agent who arrested his said (i’m translating) :”CB was surprised when arrested. when we told him. he was relieved. “ that sentence stayed in my mind. CB must have been aware they closing in on his ring. I found it strange that he “relieved “. Then later in November. the tantrums.
 
There has been speculation about where the VW images that BKA released came from and also if BKA were in possession of images/footage of MM after the 03/05/07 and if so where they could have originated from.
These screenshots of items collected in the 18/07/18 search of AB's property in Augsburg 'could' be a source of of the aforementioned items. Especially the CD rom with 'own photos' from pre 14/08/2008 and the many USB sticks.

AB's own personal computer was also confiscated in this raid.

The screens also confirm that CB was being investigated for murder as far back as July 2018.
Augburg1.jpg Augsburg2.jpg Augsburg3.jpg Augsburg4.jpg
From Discovery+ Prime Suspect, episode 3 about 10 minutes in.

Thanks again to @BIZCOCHO :)
 
I have never fully exonerated him in my mind. What a find, we'll done.
Thank you , Mrs Marple. My favorite Agatha C. sleuth. There are more things. I have to be on PC to write it. RM had even had swimming pool parts. and was selling German cars by traveling there and bringing them to sell in Portugal. CB did the exact same thing. RM stopped 2006. I think because the fiscal crisis was looming. Also there were more interest in cheaper French cars. etc. I think CB or his connection torched SM car. threatening him. I remember a member here saying that CB type is psychopath who plays/sabotage (i can’t remember the exact words) the investigation. as opposed to the crime scene. CB was taking notes before if the girl witness who saw him having a pen attached to a cord or something in his pocket. CB is precise and leaves no trace. precise like a German.
 
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