Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #24

[Sagwa]

CB has already been convicted and has served his sentence for the abuse of AP's daughter and possession of child *advertiser censored*. After his release he went to Milan where he was arrested on an international warrant for drug trafficking offences.

yes. thanks for correction. I did not know he’s already charged for that changed. So, the crime happened in portugal or Germany?

 

[Sharkbite]

yes. thanks for correction. I did not know he’s already charged for that changed. So, the crime happened in portugal or Germany?

If I remember correctly it was in Braunschweig, not long after he moved to the kiosk.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Thank you , Mrs Marple. My favorite Agatha C. sleuth. There are more things. I have to be on PC to write it. RM had even had swimming pool parts. and was selling German cars by traveling there and bringing them to sell in Portugal. CB did the exact same thing. RM stopped 2006. I think because the fiscal crisis was looming. Also there were more interest in cheaper French cars. etc. I think CB or his connection torched SM car. threatening him. I remember a member here saying that CB type is psychopath who plays/sabotage (i can’t remember the exact words) the investigation. as opposed to the crime scene. CB was taking notes before if the girl witness who saw him having a pen attached to a cord or something in his pocket. CB is precise and leaves no trace. precise like a German.

I could be wrong but isn’t it likely that Metodo 3 torched SM’s car?

yes. thanks for correction. I did not know he’s already charged for that changed. So, the crime happened in portugal or Germany?

In Germany.

 

[Polly Graf]

CB really fits the profile perfectly for this IMO, but whether there’s evidence to prove it we can only hope!

I never doubted the McCanns, there’s been sooo many theories about them but none of them ever seemed viable to me. The dog hits were meaningless, as far as I’m aware it takes 24 hours for a body to give off a scent cadaver dogs can pick up and it’s almost impossible MM had been dead in that room for that long.

IMO, someone who’s both a burglar and peadophile (exactly like CB), got into their apartment randomly with the intent of theft, saw the kids there, immediately wanted MM much more than some loose cash and jewellery so he slipped the window up, checked there was nobody to see him leave, then gently picked MM up, rested her head on his shoulder and was gone. I doubt the whole thing would have taken more than 2-3 minutes, burglars get in and out as quick as they can and after a long day in the sun, playing tennis and whatever else she’d been doing I’m sure MM would have been deeply asleep, no commotion or need to sedate her at all. Pretty easy to leave no trace too, I’m sure an experienced burglar would have gloves on.

If it WAS CB then I don’t think for a moment he killed her in that room, he would have definitely wanted to take her away alive and well!

 

[Zuleika]

Polly Graf , you really do need to look thoroughly into how long it takes for cadaverine to leak. Reams of information by experts if you Google it .
Can I just clarify here that you’re not suggesting this person entered by an unlocked door then left through a window

 

[Dlk79]

Hi @Dlk79

Good to see you again!

This is something I have been playing around with. What if the CB confession contradicts Tapas' canon? This could cause problems for HCW's case.

I think this is exactly what happened. They all contaminated each others evidence.

It's a double-edged sword isn't it. They changed their timelines from what they initially said after collaborating with one another to work out when certain things 'must have' happened. It's hard to know whether this made them more accurate or not. I'm pretty certain though, that in amongst all the various timings and events that are widely regarded as 'true', some of them are actually incorrect.

There's a number of things about MO's 9.25 check that bother me, some of which I've already touched on. His account is very uncommital about the status of the apartment. He effectively says the shutters may or may not have been open at that time, MM may or may or may not have been in there at that time and an intruder may or may not have been in there at the time. It tells us nothing but he clearly wants to keep the option open for Tannerman (who was seen before this check) to be the culprit.

In his interviews, he says he spent 1 or 2 minutes in the apartment, yet he didn't actually look into bedroom to check if MM was ok. Even 1 minute is actually quite a long time to do a simple listening check. He later justified this time by adding to his story and claiming he was perusing the books in a bookcase:

"you've got sofas here and you've got a bookcase here..."

"...One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two'."

While it's true that several rooms at the Ocean club did indeed have bookcases with shelves, the McCanns apartment did not actually have one! There was a small cabinet/cupboard with what looks to be about 4 books on top (see picture 1 on the right hand side) if that's what he is perhaps referring to, but it seems a stretch to call it a bookcase or bookshelf. And to say "looking along" makes it sound like a lot of books lined up, not 4 books in 2 stacks. Also, why look for a book to start reading at the end of your holiday?

He also says he managed to see into the parents room as he left:

"I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'."

The door to the parents room directly faces MM's bedroom door and is about 2 metres away. In picture 2, it is around that corner on the left. Picture 3 shows the view of MM's door from the parents room from directly in front of where the shutters are. So, for MO to be able to see those shuttters in the parents room as he turned to leave, he had to have been standing no more than a couple of feet from MM's door. I cannot understand therefore, if he was already that close, why he didn't look in through the doorway to see where MM was. He even states he thought that MM's door being open was odd. Yet after making the effort to walk all the way up to the doorway, he still didn't think to look in there to check if MM had maybe woken up and opened it herself? That would have been my first thought.

There's also a number of other inconsistencies with his account. He said the check he did with ROB was at 9.25 but ROB said it was 10 mintues later than that in his initial interview. He said the table with the lamp was round when it is actually square. He thought MM's room had 2 windows when there was only one. He initially said they all went into MMs bedroom when KM raised the alarm, then in his second interview he said he only went into the apartment but not into MM's room, then in his 3rd interview he says he was "almost 100% sure" he did not go into the apartment at all when KM raised the alarm.

I also find his use of language peculiar, like this excerpt when he is questioned about what he saw of the twins during the 9.25 check:

"You could see the shapes and you could see they were breathing, you'd stop and look and you could see they were sort of breathing, but in terms of sort of features and standing over and seeing where their heads were, and I couldn't say whether it was Sean or Amelie that was closest, it was just sort of, erm, sort of children in cots"

What does he mean by "you'd stop and look"? That sentence doesn't make sense. And why does he keep saying "you" when he should say "I". It feels like disassociative language.

I don't know, maybe he is telling the truth about the check, but something just doesn't quite feel right about his account.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

I think I might use ‘ you’ and ‘you’d’, if I were describing a regular checking process and ‘I’ for something I specifically remembered doing on that particular check.

 

[Polly Graf]

Polly Graf , you really do need to look thoroughly into how long it takes for cadaverine to leak. Reams of information by experts if you Google it .
Can I just clarify here that you’re not suggesting this person entered by an unlocked door then left through a window

Sorry if that’s inaccurate, after going back to check it, it says 24-72 hours many times, then slips in at the bottom that very good sniffer dogs can sometimes get a scent after a few hours!
Doesn’t change my thoughts though about what most likely happened. As for the entry and exit points, it could have been either way around or the same entrance twice, I’m just saying that it was very easy for somebody to get in that room and take her within a couple of minutes and it doesn’t surprise me at all that she didn’t wake up and scream.


I agree that the changing statements and details of what happened when they noticed her gone seem a little suspicious. But if they are covering up anything between them it could just be about how often they were really checking in on the kids!? The public were against them straight away for leaving the children unattended, which I understand but there were calls for them to at least be charged with child neglect (which the whole tapas group were guilty of) and I think that may account for them going on the defensive so soon!

I know when something happens to a child it’s very often the parent/s, but there’s no simple way they could have had any involvement in this case, there would have had to have been such an unlikely chain of events and decisions, then a huge conspiracy on top, just way too far fetched IMOO

 

[Dlk79]

I think I might use ‘ you’ and ‘you’d’, if I were describing a regular checking process and ‘I’ for something I specifically remembered doing on that particular check.

That's what I mean. He's talking in generic terms of what "you'd" do and what "you" could see in a darkened room on a typical check. But he only did this check once, so the language he uses doesn't really make sense. He makes the point that the room was a lot lighter than in his daughters room too, so it's not like it's a comparable event with a "typical" check either.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but going through his rogotary interview I find some of his responses and language a bit odd.

 

[Zuleika]

Dlk ,I have never read anything like what you’ve said ROB said about going into a room and seeing a bookcase so he browsed the books !
Which interview was that ?

 

[Dlk79]

Dlk ,I have never read anything like what you’ve said ROB said about going into a room and seeing a bookcase so he browsed the books !
Which interview was that ?

It wasn't ROB, it was MO in his 2008 Rogatory interview linked below. He didn't mention it in either of his previous 2 interviews though.

"00.32.25 4078 'How long were you actually in the apartment for then''

Reply 'One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two'."

P.J. POLICE FILES: MATTHEW OLDFIELD ROGATORY 09 APRIL 2008

I've seen pictures of other rooms in the hotel which do have these type of bookcases housing dozens of books, but there wasn't one in 5A, perhaps because that apartment was privately owned. It just had that cupboard with 4 books on it which might have even been the McCann's own books since it doesn't really look like an organised "supply".

 

[Lilly b]

It wasn't ROB, it was MO in his 2008 Rogatory interview linked below. He didn't mention it in either of his previous 2 interviews though.

"00.32.25 4078 'How long were you actually in the apartment for then''

Reply 'One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two'."

P.J. POLICE FILES: MATTHEW OLDFIELD ROGATORY 09 APRIL 2008

I've seen pictures of other rooms in the hotel which do have these type of bookcases housing dozens of books, but there wasn't one in 5A, perhaps because that apartment was privately owned. It just had that cupboard with 4 books on it which might have even been the McCann's own books since it doesn't really look like an organised "supply".

I think with all the interviews with them, it's quite difficult to remember exact sequence of events to the exact minute, or exact detail, as in your mind, you wouldn't think to remember, as your not aware that a crime is about to be committed, and someone posted not long ago, it's not going to change what happened, and these statements haven't led to the crime being solved yet, but she was taken, and that's the fact of all this

So off subject, they have named this cmk guy, by full name, how come they haven't given surnames of the others? Is it because the other 3 live in Germany? With there laws not giving surnames?
And with this info on above mentioned, would it not then make it more likely it was planned abduction, and specifically mm, as don't forget all the other children where alone in their apartments too?

 

[Okapi]

It's a double-edged sword isn't it. They changed their timelines from what they initially said after collaborating with one another to work out when certain things 'must have' happened. It's hard to know whether this made them more accurate or not. I'm pretty certain though, that in amongst all the various timings and events that are widely regarded as 'true', some of them are actually incorrect.

There's a number of things about MO's 9.25 check that bother me, some of which I've already touched on. His account is very uncommital about the status of the apartment. He effectively says the shutters may or may not have been open at that time, MM may or may or may not have been in there at that time and an intruder may or may not have been in there at the time. It tells us nothing but he clearly wants to keep the option open for Tannerman (who was seen before this check) to be the culprit.

In his interviews, he says he spent 1 or 2 minutes in the apartment, yet he didn't actually look into bedroom to check if MM was ok. Even 1 minute is actually quite a long time to do a simple listening check. He later justified this time by adding to his story and claiming he was perusing the books in a bookcase:

"you've got sofas here and you've got a bookcase here..."

"...One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two'."

While it's true that several rooms at the Ocean club did indeed have bookcases with shelves, the McCanns apartment did not actually have one! There was a small cabinet/cupboard with what looks to be about 4 books on top (see picture 1 on the right hand side) if that's what he is perhaps referring to, but it seems a stretch to call it a bookcase or bookshelf. And to say "looking along" makes it sound like a lot of books lined up, not 4 books in 2 stacks. Also, why look for a book to start reading at the end of your holiday?

He also says he managed to see into the parents room as he left:

"I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'."

The door to the parents room directly faces MM's bedroom door and is about 2 metres away. In picture 2, it is around that corner on the left. Picture 3 shows the view of MM's door from the parents room from directly in front of where the shutters are. So, for MO to be able to see those shuttters in the parents room as he turned to leave, he had to have been standing no more than a couple of feet from MM's door. I cannot understand therefore, if he was already that close, why he didn't look in through the doorway to see where MM was. He even states he thought that MM's door being open was odd. Yet after making the effort to walk all the way up to the doorway, he still didn't think to look in there to check if MM had maybe woken up and opened it herself? That would have been my first thought.

There's also a number of other inconsistencies with his account. He said the check he did with ROB was at 9.25 but ROB said it was 10 mintues later than that in his initial interview. He said the table with the lamp was round when it is actually square. He thought MM's room had 2 windows when there was only one. He initially said they all went into MMs bedroom when KM raised the alarm, then in his second interview he said he only went into the apartment but not into MM's room, then in his 3rd interview he says he was "almost 100% sure" he did not go into the apartment at all when KM raised the alarm.

I also find his use of language peculiar, like this excerpt when he is questioned about what he saw of the twins during the 9.25 check:

"You could see the shapes and you could see they were breathing, you'd stop and look and you could see they were sort of breathing, but in terms of sort of features and standing over and seeing where their heads were, and I couldn't say whether it was Sean or Amelie that was closest, it was just sort of, erm, sort of children in cots"

What does he mean by "you'd stop and look"? That sentence doesn't make sense. And why does he keep saying "you" when he should say "I". It feels like disassociative language.

I don't know, maybe he is telling the truth about the check, but something just doesn't quite feel right about his account.

That reads like he's trying to get the sequence of events clear in his own mind, but also like he's trying to get them in alignment.

 

[Anxala]

"- horrible job to do tomorrow" statement (ex GF)""
I don't believe CB ever really said that... No name of this ex-girlfriend... I believe he was busy checking 5A the night before to have dinner with her... Psychopaths don't think "horrible" the way we think about it...I don't think it's even in CB's jargon....

I've never given that any credence either.

A. It makes no sense in the context of a seasoned burgler (which CB was). If that was his intention, it would just be another (normal) day for him, and

B. It makes even less sense in the context of an intended abduction job since CB, on the evidence known of his past crimes, had no conscience and would not be prone to reflection where a pay-off is concerned.

I think it was just made-up tabloid sensationalism.

 

[Anxala]

Hmmmm

I echo your hmmmm.

That article is filled with maybes and could bes and might bes with not a shred of actual fact-linking to CB.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

That reads like he's trying to get the sequence of events clear in his own mind, but also like he's trying to get them in alignment.

I am wondering if he was looking at a floorplan at the time. That may affect how he communicates.

 

[Zuleika]

It wasn't ROB, it was MO in his 2008 Rogatory interview linked below. He didn't mention it in either of his previous 2 interviews though.

"00.32.25 4078 'How long were you actually in the apartment for then''

Reply 'One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two'."

P.J. POLICE FILES: MATTHEW OLDFIELD ROGATORY 09 APRIL 2008

I've seen pictures of other rooms in the hotel which do have these type of bookcases housing dozens of books, but there wasn't one in 5A, perhaps because that apartment was privately owned. It just had that cupboard with 4 books on it which might have even been the McCann's own books since it doesn't really look like an organised "supply".

Thanks for correcting me , my brain knew it was MO ,my fingers typed ROB .
He certainly had a lot to say in that rogatory interview , the recollection of details is amazing !

 

[mrjitty]

It wasn't ROB, it was MO in his 2008 Rogatory interview linked below. He didn't mention it in either of his previous 2 interviews though.

"00.32.25 4078 'How long were you actually in the apartment for then''

Reply 'One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know, doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have been, you know, a minute or two'."

P.J. POLICE FILES: MATTHEW OLDFIELD ROGATORY 09 APRIL 2008

I've seen pictures of other rooms in the hotel which do have these type of bookcases housing dozens of books, but there wasn't one in 5A, perhaps because that apartment was privately owned. It just had that cupboard with 4 books on it which might have even been the McCann's own books since it doesn't really look like an organised "supply".

I've always been highly dubious of the Rogatory interviews. It is almost a year after the event, and there is so much retrofitting going on.

 

[mrjitty]

It's a double-edged sword isn't it. They changed their timelines from what they initially said after collaborating with one another to work out when certain things 'must have' happened. It's hard to know whether this made them more accurate or not. I'm pretty certain though, that in amongst all the various timings and events that are widely regarded as 'true', some of them are actually incorrect.

RSBM

This is the real implication of the Redwood performance on Crimewatch IMO.

If there was no "Tannerman" striking in those crucial moments, what can be the reason for all their statements to be so carefully arranged around him?

If one suspects MO was never in the apartment, and we know from JW that GM was out in the street for some time talking. So actually the window to strike was quite large.

I would love to know what CB said about timing in his 'confession'

 

[Anxala]

Remember this is a thought experiment - it operates within defined parameters ----> that's the point

In my scenario, CB reveals the nature of the crime scene in a confession to an associate. Let's assume he reveals that he entered through/exited through the doors (no window) and was in the apartment for over 30 mins. In other words there are no checks.

The reason I find it an interesting inquiry is it potentially explains the apparent conflicts between the parties. In this scenario, HCW would be appealing to one of the inner circle to reveal critical evidence of the condition of the crime scene, which might corroborate his case.

Hi MrJ, just for clarity, the 'inner circle' being the Tapas 9 (ie. those elements of it that claimed to have made checks that evening)?

(I've snipped your post just for space-saving brevity)