Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #16

[JerseyGirl]

finally, China, a more civilized approach:

China wants to be part of MH370 probe, to send envoy Malaysia

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world...h370-probe-to-send-envoy-malaysia_920234.html

Beijing: China on Tuesday asked Malaysia to make its officials part of a probe into the mysterious crash of a Malaysian airliner in the Indian Ocean even as Beijing decided to send a special envoy there to seek more information.

While President Xi Jinping, currently in Europe, ordered that Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Yesui will head for Kuala Lumpur soon to seek more details, Premier Li Keqiang asked Malaysia to include Chinese officials into the probe of the crash of MH370.

Malaysia should strictly comply with the international convention, continue to coordinate the international search, and absorb Chinese experts to join the in-depth investigation, Li said. Chinese officials say a "flip-flop" probe by Malaysian authorities is adding more confusion to the mysterious crash.

This is the first time since the disappearance of MH370 on March 8 that China has come up with such a demand as the relatives of passengers aboard the jet refused to believe the plane crashed in the Indian Ocean.

 

[Supernovae]

"More prosaically, Inmarsat's systems enable passengers to make calls from their seats and also to use Wi-Fi and connect to the internet while flying."

That's interesting, because it suggests that had the passengers been alive, capacious and not under duress when the plane was going so far off course, they should have been able to make calls for help.

 

[ToutCa]

It is not fair to compare the Air France disaster to this Malaysia Airlines disaster.

The Air France plane fell off the radar. They eventually pinpointed the area, searched and found it within 4 days (if I recall). If the Malaysia Airline would have been where it dropped off radar they would have found it within 24 hours!!

We have been all over the map trying to find the plane ... Gulf of Thailand, South China Seas, Bay of Bengal, Indian Ocean, Kazakhstan, Maldives, etc. etc. etc.

It is more than fair, it is very illuminating to compare AF-447 to MH-370, as the actions of ATC and the government and airline are uncannily similar in each case.

Of course, every air disaster is, sadly, unique.

I absolutely agree that MH-370 met its ultimate fate for different reasons than AF-447. And as you mentioned, that difference is underscored by MH-370 flying 7.5 hours off in unknown directions -- whereas AF-447 only flew off-course for 4 minutes.

The fact that the AF-447 crash site was so difficult to locate and investigate, for a flight that went off course only 4 minutes (not 7.5 hours) makes it a little more understandable how exponentially tougher the hunt for MH-370 is.

 

[aa9511]

I left click hold and drag the screen just like google maps.

Ok thanks.

It does look A LOT like the plane toe-ed the line between border ATC's. I don't know exactly what all the blue lines are - which are what countries' and what kind of radars they indicate. However, when I compare the zig-zag line the flight took with the blue line from that same area (zig-zag area), the path of the lines matches up. The blue line goes north-west (west and slightly north), and then northwest again (north and slightly west). This is the same general path the plane took.

Once it gets to the point of last millitary contact (west of Phuket, Thailand), I see that it gets to expanse of ocean with no blue lines. In other words, the plane was then free of any radar. I believe this is where is must have taken its big turn (if we are to believe the South-conclusion).

From there, it either went around the west tip of Indonesian radar. Or it went over the western-most part of Indonesia (in the north and west).

On the skyvector map of that part of Indonesia, there are a few blue grids covering that part of Indonesia, but there doesn't seem to be much activity there in the form of boundaries and lines (as there was in the heavily populated area of Malaysia near Kuala Lumpur). That suggests to me that perhaps the plane would not even have been detected by Indonesia's military radar there, b/c perhaps that radar was "sleeping" at the time (turned off). It does not seem to be a very populated area.

Either way, it seems, from the last point of military radar contact by 370, from there it would not be difficult at all to be away from any country's any-kind-of-radar. Just go a little bit around Indonesia, or go over a small part of Indonesian tip, and you are out in a LARGE expanse of ocean. Where there is no detection.

IMO, whoever was flying the plane DEFINATELY deliberately went around and tried to use the radar lines to their own advantage for its disappearance.

JMO.

I used skyvector.com and also the maps on Keith Ledgerwood's blogs.

 

[Hatfield]

finally, China, a more civilized approach:

China wants to be part of MH370 probe, to send envoy Malaysia

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world...h370-probe-to-send-envoy-malaysia_920234.html

Beijing: China on Tuesday asked Malaysia to make its officials part of a probe into the mysterious crash of a Malaysian airliner in the Indian Ocean even as Beijing decided to send a special envoy there to seek more information.

While President Xi Jinping, currently in Europe, ordered that Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Yesui will head for Kuala Lumpur soon to seek more details, Premier Li Keqiang asked Malaysia to include Chinese officials into the probe of the crash of MH370.

Malaysia should strictly comply with the international convention, continue to coordinate the international search, and absorb Chinese experts to join the in-depth investigation, Li said. Chinese officials say a "flip-flop" probe by Malaysian authorities is adding more confusion to the mysterious crash.

This is the first time since the disappearance of MH370 on March 8 that China has come up with such a demand as the relatives of passengers aboard the jet refused to believe the plane crashed in the Indian Ocean.

This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Interesting the official used the words "flip-flop". It definitely is not just us here at WS that have lots of questions.

I am surprised China did not do this sooner. They probably did not like that little protest last night and are beginning to feel the international heat now.

 

[JerseyGirl]

The Australian Associated Press (AAP) said Perth is already preparing for the arrival of family members ... Australian government would grant them visas once it was confirmed debris from MH370 had been found. The airline will then help family members travel to Australia.

Sammy Yap, president of Perth's Chung-Wah Association, said the city's large Chinese network was ready to assist the families physically, emotionally and spiritually. "We stand ready to help in any way we can," Yap told AAP. "Perth is a city which will try to ease their pain, and help them come to terms with their loss." It is believed the Federal and West Australian governments were also discussing establishing a reception centre for bereaved families from China and elsewhere.

Buddhist temples around the city would be on hand to offer spiritual comfort, Yap said. Perth councillor Lily Chen, the president of the Australian Chinese Women's Federation, said emotional support would also be available. "We will be able to offer them comfort in any form, it is very important to ease the mental stress, sadness and shock," AAP quoted Chen as saying.

Visa fees are expected to be waived for the families of passengers on the doomed flight, which included 152 Chinese nationals, while Defence Minister David Johnston said the logistical issues surrounding the arrival of grieving families were still being considered.

"The PM is very fixed on assisting Malaysia with the families of the crew and passengers," Johnston said.


New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-c...eive-grieving-families-1.532224#ixzz2wzqgTN9l

 

[Carmelita]

http:///news/politics-elections/201...puts-malaysian-minister-on-defensive-n1813564


Asked about accusations the plane search had been disorderly, Hishammuddin once retorted: "It's only confusion if you want it to be seen to be confusion." Another day, he called on a reporter to apologize for asking a similar question, saying: "I have got a lot of feedback saying we have been very responsible in our action. It's very irresponsible of you to say that."

Home Minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi acknowledged some initial missteps but blamed those on the government's "eagerness to deliver information." Hishammuddin, he said, should be commended. "He has given his best effort."

Hishammuddin has insisted the current search is "above politics."

Personal opinion; We will one day see in political science books these very men as an example of a government’s propaganda machine at work.

As to the “new ingenious” Doppler/radar/satellite, fuel on board, aerodynamics of the airplane, pinpointing to the exact, (sorta kinda but really generally an area of possibility) of the Indian Ocean where flight 370 went down. Show that new math to someone who can confirm its validity.

That may be China's question. Never in a million years would I think that China was on the right page, for once, but in the incident they are prudent to ask for the formula that has led Malaysia to unequivocally declare that their loved ones are at the bottom of the Indian Ocean.

 

[JerseyGirl]

This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Interesting the official used the words "flip-flop". It definitely is not just us here at WS that have lots of questions.

I am surprised China did not do this sooner. They probably did not like that little protest last night and are beginning to feel the international heat now.

I think that China has always gotten what they've asked for and it probably took some time for them to come to the realization in this situation that they can't bully the world any longer.

 

[TartLemon]

3/22... Landslide in Oso, Washington (pop 108).... At least 14 known dead. 176 still unaccounted for. There's hardly any news about this. WHY?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I was talking about the Air Traffic Control. What I'm trying to do is see where one country's ATC drops off and the other's begins. I guess it would be out over the ocean where the plane made the left turn. But I am also trying to see how the path it followed after that compares to ATC between different countries.

Thanks.

I quoted something several threads back about this. I was lurking on PPRuNe (professional pilots rumour network) and one of them said that it looked like the plane had followed the line of ATC border, which would add confusion to both ATC's. Let me see if I can find the quote as it explained it better than me... hang on....

 

[time]

"More prosaically, Inmarsat's systems enable passengers to make calls from their seats and also to use Wi-Fi and connect to the internet while flying."

That's interesting, because it suggests that had the passengers been alive, capacious and not under duress when the plane was going so far off course, they should have been able to make calls for help.

Mary Schiavo: “The first question is why not the calls from the plane or calls to and from the plane and that’s because this plane was not equipped with the most modern equipment to have on board wifi and cell phone service, so that means that these cell phones would have to rely upon going near a tower. Now, the plane did pass back over Malaysia, and that was a possibility but it would have had to hit a tower just like anyone else driving around on the ground or being lucky to get a tower. And then, actually, some phone company officials have said that the cell phone ringing was not indicative that the phone was still working, but merely that it was simply ringing through to the area or the switching station to go ahead and meet the cell phone. It didn’t mean the cell phone itself was working.”

http://kdvr.com/2014/03/19/experts-answer-questions-on-twitter-about-missing-malaysian-flight/

 

[Nymeria]

"More prosaically, Inmarsat's systems enable passengers to make calls from their seats and also to use Wi-Fi and connect to the internet while flying."

That's interesting, because it suggests that had the passengers been alive, capacious and not under duress when the plane was going so far off course, they should have been able to make calls for help.

I think what you quote above is just about Immarsat's products.
I don't think they actually had that specific tech. on MH370.
Even if they did , from all we know it was disabled.
They had no Wi-Fi or cell capabilities, IIRC.

ETA- Yeah, what Time said up there ^

 

[Elley Mae]

3/22... Landslide in Oso, Washington (pop 108).... At least 14 known dead. 176 still unaccounted for. There's hardly any news about this. WHY?

I understand what you mean. It happens alot<not a word. This will be about a pig soon. j/k

 

[Boodles]

JMO
The flaw in saying all the passengers are definitely dead just based on that satellite analysis is two-fold for me.

(1)- It is not tangible proof that the plane is even in that spot. It maybe a totally accurate analysis, but still is not tangible proof. People want to know for certain. IMO, the finding of debri and making the connection is only way to do that.

(2)- Deducing that all are dead just because there are no landing strips or land nearby is flawed because of the very unlikely scenerio of clinging to debris OR a life raft being deployed with fishing gear to keep people alive. Likely? Absolutely not but possible so we cannot say people are definitely dead. OR maybe a passenger in the water or 2 being picked up by a freighter that we have not heard about yet. Again not likely at all but people need absolute 100 percent proof at this point that there were no survivors and that can only be determined by finding the wreckage.

I understand.

Taken further, one could argue that without finding the specific body of passenger X, one would not have absolute proof that passenger X has died (based on the examples you gave, above).

That's why, I am sure, Malaysia Air used the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt."

But I completely understand wanting tangible proof of wreckage. I would want it as well if my family had been on that plane.

But not being a family member, and having pondered, to the best of my ability, the Inmarsat methodology, I understand and agree with their conclusion and with Malaysia's announcement. Let's face it, no one wanted this to be the outcome. But it had to be said sooner or later. To me, waiting until they find definitive debris (if ever), is more cruel that publishing the math-based conclusion. The grief process (including denial), eventually has to begin.

And after 16 days of no fresh water, no food, injuries, exposure to the elements including massive ocean swells, extreme winds and whatever other conditions a survivor could face, I can't think of any other conclusion. Except for the remote possibility of a Gilligan's Island type of outcome, which is possible. But is it fair, ethical, kind or reasonable to lead loved ones down a path toward hope when the data, good hard data, suggests there is none? It was a judgment call.

 

[JerseyGirl]

I think what you quote above is just about Immarsat's products.
I don't think they actually had those specific tech. on MH37.
Even if they did , from all we know it was disabled.
They had no Wi-Fi or cell capabilities, IIRC.

ETA- yeah, what Time said up there ^

Malaysia Airlines didn’t buy computer upgrade that could have given data on missing flight

The upgrade, which wholesales for about $10 per flight, would have provided investigators with the direction, speed and altitude of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 even after other communications from the plane went dark, said a satellite industry official familiar with the equipment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e2484c-af7c-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html

 

[aa9511]

It is not fair to compare the Air France disaster to this Malaysia Airlines disaster.

The Air France plane fell off the radar. They eventually pinpointed the area, searched and found it within 4 days (if I recall). If the Malaysia Airline would have been where it dropped off radar they would have found it within 24 hours!!

We have been all over the map trying to find the plane ... Gulf of Thailand, South China Seas, Bay of Bengal, Indian Ocean, Kazakhstan, Maldives, etc. etc. etc.

bbm

Yes, so true. The search area would have been SO MUCH SMALLER.

If we think about that....that they really had NO IDEA where the plane went, b/c it did NOT go down where it dropped off radar, but instead went who-knows-where - well it really is kind of amazing what Inmarsat was able to do, IMO. That they even have an are pin-pointed down. Imagine if Inmarsat was not able to get those satellite pings - that plane would IMO have never been found. It would have been an even bigger mystery, possibly never to be solved.

Which is I think exactly what the hijackers wanted.

IMO.

 

[Boodles]

Ok thanks.

It does look A LOT like the plane toe-ed the line between border ATC's. I don't know exactly what all the blue lines are - which are what countries' and what kind of radars they indicate. However, when I compare the zig-zag line the flight took with the blue line from that same area (zig-zag area), the path of the lines matches up. The blue line goes north-west (west and slightly north), and then northwest again (north and slightly west). This is the same general path the plane took.

Once it gets to the point of last millitary contact (west of Phuket, Thailand), I see that it gets to expanse of ocean with no blue lines. In other words, the plane was then free of any radar. I believe this is where is must have taken its big turn (if we are to believe the South-conclusion).

From there, it either went around the west tip of Indonesian radar. Or it went over the western-most part of Indonesia (in the north and west).

On the skyvector map of that part of Indonesia, there are a few blue grids covering that part of Indonesia, but there doesn't seem to be much activity there in the form of boundaries and lines (as there was in the heavily populated area of Malaysia near Kuala Lumpur). That suggests to me that perhaps the plane would not even have been detected by Indonesia's military radar there, b/c perhaps that radar was "sleeping" at the time (turned off). It does not seem to be a very populated area.

Either way, it seems, from the last point of military radar contact by 370, from there it would not be difficult at all to be away from any country's any-kind-of-radar. Just go a little bit around Indonesia, or go over a small part of Indonesian tip, and you are out in a LARGE expanse of ocean. Where there is no detection.

IMO, whoever was flying the plane DEFINATELY deliberately went around and tried to use the radar lines to their own advantage for its disappearance.

JMO.

I used skyvector.com and also the maps on Keith Ledgerwood's blogs.

Interesting!

 

[Holly G. Lightly]

The Australian Associated Press (AAP) said Perth is already preparing for the arrival of family members ... Australian government would grant them visas once it was confirmed debris from MH370 had been found. The airline will then help family members travel to Australia.

Sammy Yap, president of Perth's Chung-Wah Association, said the city's large Chinese network was ready to assist the families physically, emotionally and spiritually. "We stand ready to help in any way we can," Yap told AAP. "Perth is a city which will try to ease their pain, and help them come to terms with their loss." It is believed the Federal and West Australian governments were also discussing establishing a reception centre for bereaved families from China and elsewhere.

Buddhist temples around the city would be on hand to offer spiritual comfort, Yap said. Perth councillor Lily Chen, the president of the Australian Chinese Women's Federation, said emotional support would also be available. "We will be able to offer them comfort in any form, it is very important to ease the mental stress, sadness and shock," AAP quoted Chen as saying.

Visa fees are expected to be waived for the families of passengers on the doomed flight, which included 152 Chinese nationals, while Defence Minister David Johnston said the logistical issues surrounding the arrival of grieving families were still being considered.

"The PM is very fixed on assisting Malaysia with the families of the crew and passengers," Johnston said.


New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-c...eive-grieving-families-1.532224#ixzz2wzqgTN9l

Love the Aussies! :loveyou:

 

[aa9511]

... airspace borders map:

Thank you SO MUCH!!

Look at the blue line and we can find the path of 370 just following the blue lines, b/c they took borders of ATC.

Look at the path of the lines to the left part of the upper part of Malaysia (around Malaysia/Thailand border).

We see the same path for 370 - west, north, north, west - zig-zag shape.

From there it is out free from any radar.

Took a huge turn.

Either went around western tip of Indonesian radar or went over that tip.

Then expanse of ocean.

JMO.

 

[dotr]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-malaysia-plane-search-20140325,0,594458.story

"Citing satellite-data analysis by British firm Inmarsat, he said there was now no doubt that the Boeing jet came down in the ocean in one of the most remote places on Earth - an implicit admission that all 239 people on board had died.

After Najib's announcement, Chinese Deputy Foreign Minister Xie Hangsheng demanded Malaysia hand over all relevant satellite analysis showing how Malaysia had reached its conclusion about the fate of the jet.

China's Foreign Ministry said on Tuesday it hopes Britain will provide satellite data by British firm Inmarsat on the missing Malaysian Airlines plane".