Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

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Fragments of the missile should still be part of the wreckage and will trace back to the source with minimal difficulty IF a neutral investigation team has access to the site surely .. then the proverbial will hit the fan.

From what I have seen it appears that the Russian separatists are all over the scene of the crash and I have heard they are impeding access by Ukrainian or other investigators. There was an unconfirmed report earlier that the 'black box' was turned over to RUSSIAN authorities for transport back to Moscow. I hope to death that is just one of those crazy rumors you hear this soon after a tragedy like this. If not, well.. it'd be like having the New Orleans mob handle JFK's autopsy..
 
from the CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mal...pts-airlines-to-change-flight-paths-1.2710240

'"When asked for comment, Air Canada said it has been avoiding the area even before the crash. Angela Mah, a spokeswoman for Air Canada, said the airline had been "proactively" avoiding that airspace for some time.''

US has not been flying over that area for some time. From the link Emirate Airliner was behind the MAS flight and received instructions to return to Dubai. The news story is about all airlines avoiding the area.
 
"Stupid statement by Russian president saying Russia is not involved ... trying to distance himself from attack. Under Ukraine Govt ... of course it is, and Ukraine is part of Russia" ... Aussie commentary on Ch 7 news

Suggesting Putin will not be invited to next G-20 meeting.

Isn't that whole point of them fighting is that Ukraine is not a part of Russia?
 
From what I have seen it appears that the Russian separatists are all over the scene of the crash and I have heard they are impeding access by Ukrainian or other investigators. There was an unconfirmed report earlier that the 'black box' was turned over to RUSSIAN authorities for transport back to Moscow. I hope to death that is just one of those crazy rumors you hear this soon after a tragedy like this. If not, well.. it'd be like having the New Orleans mob handle JFK's autopsy..

Quite right .. mind you they will not be able to pick up all the missile fragments because they would not be able to identify all of them by sight or distinguish them from plane wreckage .. I'm sure that you are quite right and they will do their best to 'protect' the site from an international investigation which could likely unveil the truth.
 
The Russians have been arming the pro Russian separatists in Ukraine. Putin is up to his neck in this.
 
It would be interesting to know the coordinates of any Russian warships in the Indian Ocean on or around March 8, 2014.
 
From what I have seen it appears that the Russian separatists are all over the scene of the crash and I have heard they are impeding access by Ukrainian or other investigators. There was an unconfirmed report earlier that the 'black box' was turned over to RUSSIAN authorities for transport back to Moscow. I hope to death that is just one of those crazy rumors you hear this soon after a tragedy like this. If not, well.. it'd be like having the New Orleans mob handle JFK's autopsy..

Granted the criminal act occurred over Ukrainian airspace, however, does the "black box" not belong to Malaysia and Malaysia Airlines? Why is it being analyzed in Moscow? Or did Malaysia request this?

:waitasec:

MOO
 
Granted the criminal act occurred over Ukrainian airspace, however, does the "black box" not belong to Malaysia and Malaysia Airlines? Why is it being analyzed in Moscow?

:waitasec:

MOO

Because they can :banghead:
 
More on that discussion around the airline's decision not to avoid a flight path over the Ukraine:

Australian airline Qantas has told Reuters it shifted its London to Dubai route away from Ukrainian airspace several months ago. The spokesman declined to say why, but the crisis in Ukraine has been escalating since November.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-ukraine-live#block-53c854f9e4b0ff929b8c5c31
It just goes to show you MAS is not keeping up with the times. It seems all their procedures from security to getting the latest memo on avoiding a war stricken airspace has not gotten through.

They might have sell off privately. Too bad, as after these events, they were considered a star alliance airline.
 
Oh boy. Here we go with the our president is a wimp argument which is why incidents involving other countries and Asian airlines occur. How about Lockerbie? 187 Americans on board. Reagan in office. I guess Reagan was such a wimp that Libya wasn't scared of us, right?

Respectfully snipped by me: the problem is that superpowers (normally, hold on a moment) operate under different rules than the rest of the world. For the U.S. to retaliate against an act of terrorism pulls the whole world in on one side or another. That's why the U.S. has been historically slow to anger on acts that had the rest of the world and perhaps much of our own citizenry demanding action. Well, just look at the two Iraqi wars--we reacted (rightly or wrongly) to acts of terrorism on U.S. soil and/or against our sworn allies and the face of the world has been reshaped accordingly. You can agree or disagree with what the U.S. did but there is no question that the actions we took changed the face of history for good or ill. That's why Russia pursuing an agenda to reacquire portions of the Crimea is such a dangerous and reckless act. A small nation acting unilaterally is one thing. A world power acting unilaterally and being territorially aggressive, well...I already said my spiel on world war and won't repeat myself.
 
It would be interesting to know the coordinates of any Russian warships in the Indian Ocean on or around March 8, 2014.
Exactly my thoughts also...as well as who may have been aboard to divert THAT flight.

MOO
 
Yes, there is a large separatist movement being sponsored by the Russian government.

I think they can make sanctions that will hurt the leaders a lot more than the people. I also wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't spur a UN force to go to the Russian Ukraine border. JMO

I also felt that from the minute Russia started amassing troops on the Ukrainian border that WWIII is an inevitability.


I agree.


I think they'll try to make sanctions that hurt the leaders most of all.

I also think that Russian news sources are going to be reporting this very differently. AFAIK, they don't have internet restrictions so hopefully the truth will be found out in the country eventually. This may start to erode Putin's popularity. At least I hope so.

All is JMO

Im with you 100% and it scares me to death. My mother went through WWII. My grandparents were Dutch underground members. On the other side, my family were Republican resisters in the Spanish civil war, my great grandfather assassinated on the street in front if his house, my grandfather imprisoned, my father forced to flee to the US and not return for a decade, due to fascist oppression.

As a result of this history, war, it's causes and effects has always been a topic in my family. It caused my to study history for awhile. I eventually got bored and changed majors, but I never forget a professor explaining the delicate, geographical balance of territories and how minor shifts can cause global wars.

This was 20 years ago and back then he stated that the state of the world map was similarly precarious when compared to the state before our last two world wars. Any shift and bam.

We've had many shifts since then, Puti's Ukranian land grab one of the most significant. Putin has worried me greatly. I so agree with you Steely, that hes using the same justifications as Hitler. He also has the same blind adoration of his citizenry Then situation with Ukraine has caused me a lot of anxiety. It's a global disaster in the making.

This just makes it all so much worse.
 
Bolded by me, from your link:

How much do you think the Russians/Ukranian separatists will pay to the families of the victims of MA777?

Although I guess if we could determine that the Ukraine had fired on Russian flights in the area that would be more parallel to the case you cited:



In other words, the U.S. answered for its actions in the International Court of Justice even though its mistaken strike against the Iranian airliner had occurred after previous attacks against U.S. targets. I know that I, for one, will be holding my breath to see how much compensation Russia pays the families of the victims of MA777.
I couldn't care less about the money/compensation. This is human life we are talking about.

I provided those links to put in context what you were saying about the 'despotic' Russians and their 'legitimacy'.
USA has widespread deprivation and poverty too by the way and thats with no sanctions!
People in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones and all that.

Yours,
resident pacifist.
 
minette said:
How much do you think the Russians/Ukranian separatists will pay to the families of the victims of MA777?

Somewhat related.. last year (I think) a Russian plane crashed in Russia that killed everyone aboard. I remember there being a child of a really important person in Russia on it. Anyway, very soon afterward (like within a few weeks) it was said that the families of the victims would receive the equivalent of $95k... which frankly, in Russian currency, while it doesn't replace each life, is a decent chunk of change considering that the yearly income of Russians is something like 15k a year.

http://rt.com/news/passenger-plane-crash-kazan-866/
 
THAT is a criminal act in itself, again, IF Malaysia did not request this.

MOO

I'm thinking that the looters may actually do the investigators a favour here, they may actually accidentally pick up something important before the Rebels have a chance to secret it away.
 
Im with you 100% and it scares me to death. My mother went through WWII. My grandparents were Dutch underground members. On the other side, my family were Republican resisters in the Spanish civil war, my great grandfather assassinated on the street in front if his house, my grandfather imprisoned, my father forced to flee to the US and not return for a decade, due to fascist oppression.

As a result of this history, war, it's causes and effects has always been a topic in my family. It caused my to study history for awhile. I eventually got bored and changed majors, but I never forget a professor explaining the delicate, geographical balance of territories and how minor shifts can cause global wars.

This was 20 years ago and back then he stated that the state of the works map was similarly precarious when compared to the state before our last two world wars. Any shift and bam.

We've had many shifts since then, Puti's Ukranian land grab one of the most significant. Putin has worried me greatly. I so agree with you Steely, that hes using the same justifications as Hitler. He also has the same blind adoration of his citizenry Then situation with Ukraine has caused me a lot of anxiety. It's a global disaster in the making.

This just makes it all so much worse.

Gitana, as a young boy my FIL was in the French resistance. He was *adamantly* opposed to the U.S. invading Iraq post 9/11. But these current events have given him pause because the parallels are just too strong. :(
 
From what I have seen it appears that the Russian separatists are all over the scene of the crash and I have heard they are impeding access by Ukrainian or other investigators. There was an unconfirmed report earlier that the 'black box' was turned over to RUSSIAN authorities for transport back to Moscow. I hope to death that is just one of those crazy rumors you hear this soon after a tragedy like this. If not, well.. it'd be like having the New Orleans mob handle JFK's autopsy..

From what I have heard the separatist are armed also.
 
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