Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[Amee]

A Singapore Airlines passenger plane was flying just 15 miles away from flight MH17 when it was shot out of the sky over Ukraine.

Data from Flightradar24.com reveals the Copenhagen to Singapore flight was in airspace above the dangerous Donetsk region just two minutes before a surface-to-air missile hit the Malaysia Airlines plane on Thursday.

Figures also reveal 55 planes - including six flights from London's Heathrow Airport - flew over the war zone on the same day the tragedy happened.

Airlines which used the same airspace over Donetsk as the MH17 plane on the same day include: Jet Airways; Thai Airways; Pakistan International Airlines; Qatar Airways; Etihad; Emirates; and Austrian Airlines.

There was also another Malaysian Airlines flight travelling from Heathrow to Kuala Lumpur.

The ICAO advised carriers to consider alternative routes after outlining ‘the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights’.

In response to warnings, American flights had been banned from flying over Ukraine, but European and Asian carriers were still operating in the area.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...y-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz37s1OBL9j

 

[SouthAussie]

MH17: Australian flags to be flown at half-mast as nation mourns victims

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-australian-flags-flown-half-mast

 

[CARIIS]

They were doing what the rules were at the time:

"The aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 [approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 ft] when it disappeared from the radar," said. "This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 [32,000ft] but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying."
It also emerged that as recently as a month ago British airlines were given the all-clear to overfly the area where flight MH17 was downed, after being told that operations were "normal" in the region.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace

There flight plan in AMsterdam was approved prior to departure. Other routes over certain areas were banned - in APril but not this one

Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over southern parts of Ukraine

We USA do not have the power to tell other carriers not ours what to do. We can make info avail but have no jurdiction.

Here is the actual Notice to Airmen:
) ALL PERSONS EXERCISING THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRMAN CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE FAA, EXCEPT SUCH PERSONS OPERATING U.S. REGISTERED AIRCRAFT FOR A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER; AND

(3) ALL OPERATORS OF U.S. REGISTERED CIVIL AIRCRAFT, EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER.

In addition in the media it gets more muddled cause some carriers, on their own, decided they would do more about avoiding areas the the Notice outlined.

So its like the media is getting all the above wrong and confused on this angle of the story.

In terms of route flown yesterday they were complying with their companies mandates .......

which is my opioion is sleazy cause it all is about money and fuel - well I guess they discovered that they really did not save a lot of money here losing a jumbo jet.......now did they

I think they will go bankrupt after the last 4 months!

 

[Amee]

AIRLINES RESPONSES FOLLOWING MH17 TRAGEDY

British Airways confirmed it is considering the future of its daily flight from Heathrow to Kiev, stating: 'We are keeping those services under review, but Kiev is several hundred kilometres from the incident site.'

Virgin Atlantic released a statement saying: '[We] can confirm that we are not currently flying over this air space. Safety and security is our top priority and we will always follow government advice in such matters.'

Air France released a statement saying: 'The Company has not flown over the Crimean region since 3rd April 2014 Air France keeps a close eye on the situation and has taken the decision not to fly over the Ukraine since it has been made aware of this incident.'

Dutch carrier KLM stated: 'It is with great regret that KLM has learnt about the accident with flight MH17, codeshare KL4103, of Malaysia Airlines from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

'Our hearts go out to all families and friends of the passengers and crew on board of flight MH17.We are in contact with Malaysia Airlines to obtain further information. As a precautionary measure KLM avoids flying over the concerned territory.

Emirates said that one of its jets bound for Ukraine's capital of Kiev turned around and returned to Dubai. The airline suspended all flights to Kiev indefinitely. It emphasized that flights to and from the U.S. and other European destinations don't fly over the area where the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crashed.

Germany's Lufthansa immediately rerouted all overflights to avoid eastern Ukraine, although flights to Kiev and Odessa were not affected.

Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines said that none of its flights operated over the portion of Ukraine covered by the FAA security advisory, but added that it would stop routing flights over any part of the country.

Australia's Qantas confirmed the airline stopped flying over Ukraine several months ago and shifted its London-Dubai route 400 miles to the south.

South Korean airlines Korean Airlines and Asiana also confirmed they had re-routed flights prior to the accident, as had Taiwan's China Airlines.

Russian Aeroflot, UTair and Transaero, Turkish airlines, Italy's Alitalia and America's Delta diverted all their planes away from the strife-hit region.

'After the incident we have decided to avoid Ukrainian airspace,' a Turkish Airlines spokesman said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...y-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz37s2BSfpO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Is it too soon to predict the outcome here?

Rebels are blamed, tried and hung. Putin denies all knowledge of the Buk, and we officially take his word without actually believing him (citing the article from June 14 about a Buk getting into hands of rebels), and things carry on much the same way until the next disaster.

JMO

 

[time]

Just posting someone's opinion so no one jump on me

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-malaysia-airlines-was-flying-over-a-war-zone-2014-7

However, aviation safety authorities in the United States and Europe warned pilots in April about potential risks flying in or near Ukraine airspace.

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration issued a "special notice" regarding Ukrainian airspace advising airlines to "exercise extreme caution due to the continuing potential for instability."

International aviation agencies in April also had warned pilots and airlines to avoid the Ukrainian airspace.
Aviation experts last night said operators continued to fly across the zone because it was the quickest and therefore cheapest route for some flights.

A former head of group security at airports group BAA claimed last night suggested that cost was a factor in the decision to use Ukrainian airspace.

Norman Shanks, who is also a professor of aviation security at Coventry University, said: "Malaysia Airlines, like a number of other carriers, have been continuing to use it because it is a shorter route, which means less fuel and therefore less money.

 

[mck16]

These trained monkeys pointed a very dangerous missile launcher toward the sky and pushed the button. They had no idea what they were shooting at and for that matter didn't care. They have no respect for human life and after this they don't deserve to live.

At this point it is not who did it, this is a humanitarian issue. There are human beings laying dead in a field and have been for over two days. Come together and do the right thing and get those bodies out of there and to a respectable place. If we have to go in there with guns blazing then that is what we do. Are we or any other country going to forsake our morals as human beings and let a few dumb *advertiser censored* rebels keep us for doing the moral act of removing them? If this is what the world has come to we are doomed.

For a day or two declare a break and take care of this incident. Then you can go back to killing each other for no reason, but don't disrespect 298 people who had nothing to do with this insane conflict. jmo

 

[LambChop]

A claims lawyer once told me 10% of the blame always lies with the victim (Malaysia Air in this case), for being there.

Okay, everyone needs to calm down:

I believe the posts that said Malaysian Air was the victim was in response to this post about a claim attorney saying that 10% of the blame lies with the victim. The passengers in no way would be presented in any courtroom as other than victims with 0 responsibility.

 

[panthera]

I think this is incorrect. BBC News 24 showed a radar map earlier this evening (UK time) - they said that it could just as easily have been another plane shot down and they specifically said that a Singapore Airlines plane had passed very close to the spot where MH17 was shot down shortly before (or after) - can't remember which. They definitely said SA and they mentioned another airline which I am afraid I cannot recall right now.

This is a link to a Reuters article dated Friday 18th July:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-route-idUSKBN0FN0VB20140718

I heard or read something similar last night. MH17 wasn't the only commercial aircraft in that airspace. The issue is that the ones who fired the missile did not care what the missile hit.

MOO

 

[mck16]

Why this happened does not matter. It happened now go and fix the results. That is the immediate issue as I see it. Please get those babies and their parents out of those fields. This is so inhuman and I can't believe it is happening. They have laid in those fields for 3 freaking days. It just makes me sick. We all know who did it so now someone needs to fix it. jmo

 

[CARIIS]

They have said over and over the captain selects the flight path. jmo

Its not ( its hard to explain) that the captain selects the path - on every route there are typical highways in the sky. They dont like pick out individual flight plans, (imagine how many crashes!) its kind of like an expressway, they get on the expressway and go over the same "routes". That is why earlier post noted how many planes were on that highway. The only diversion would be like an emergency or thunderstorms etc. Even then, if the request a deviation, (it is kind of like a lane change!) they have to move over to another lane in a specfic "lane". Each captain cant like pick - they have to cue up along the highway.

Or typically if there were like two flights one behind the other that requested a diversion cause of turbalnce ahead - they both would be routed over to the same lane around the storm - am I saying this in clear way?

They also have even flight levels for one direction and odd highways for the opposite direction.Dont remember the order (like north south is odd or even) but if aircraft is going north it can only be on a even number alitude - if they are going south they must only be on a odd number flight level (altitudes).

 

[panthera]

These trained monkeys pointed a very dangerous missile launcher toward the sky and pushed the button. They had no idea what they were shooting at and for that matter didn't care. They have no respect for human life and after this they don't deserve to live.

At this point it is not who did it, this is a humanitarian issue. There are human beings laying dead in a field and have been for over two days. Come together and do the right thing and get those bodies out of there and to a respectable place. If we have to go in there with guns blazing then that is what we do. Are we or any other country going to forsake our morals as human beings and let a few dumb *advertiser censored* rebels keep us for doing the moral act of removing them? If this is what the world has come to we are doomed.

For a day or two declare a break and take care of this incident. Then you can go back to killing each other for no reason, but don't disrespect 298 people who had nothing to do with this insane conflict. jmo

This deserves much more than the "thanks" button. Completely agree and thank you!

Let no one forget the 298 innocent human beings, including many children, who perished due to no fault of their own. They all deserve to return to their home country for a proper burial or memorial service. I honestly don't care what happens within that country after that.

:cry:

MOO

 

[mck16]

Is it too soon to predict the outcome here?

Rebels are blamed, tried and hung. Putin denies all knowledge of the Buk, and we officially take his word without actually believing him (citing the article from June 14 about a Buk getting into hands of rebels), and things carry on much the same way until the next disaster.


How soon will they be hung? ty

 

[Amee]

Interpol agents will join some 30 observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe who arrived at the disaster site on Friday to help supervise the handling of the remains of victims from at least nine different countries

Teams from the international police agency helped to identify victims after the tsunami in Asia a decade ago and the crash of the Air France AF 447 in 2009.

Europe’s air safety agency has “strongly recommended” that flights avoid both eastern Ukraine and Crimean airspace following the apparent downing of a Malaysian civilian aircraft in rebel-held territory.

“Due to the unsafe situation created by a conflict on the eastern border of Ukraine and the situation over Crimea, where more than one Air Traffic Service provider may be controlling flight within the same airspace, careful attention should be given” and flyovers avoided, the European Aviation Security Agency said in a statement.

After the crash Thursday of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 Ukraine declared the east of its territory a no-fly zone, according to Eurocontrol, the body that manages airspace control over Europe

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...er-at-russia-too/story-fniztvng-1226994305758

 

[gitana1]

BBM

'Igor Girkin, a local pro-Russian military commander who had appeared to acknowledge his forces shot down the Boeing 777 in a Facebook posting later deleted, was tonight quoted in the Russian media suggesting that the jet had been deliberately loaded with corpses and crashed to damage the rebel cause.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...the-gruesome-scene-for-survivors-9615895.html

For heaven's sake. First a soldier told a BBC producer the Queen of England was responsible, now the commander is suggesting all the nations of the victims are involved in some vast conspiracy, pretending their citizens are dead when really the plane was only carrying corpses.

These men are an embarrasment to their cause, and their nation, whatever it is. In my opinion.

This is the kind of nonsense that Saddam Hussein used to say and that Muslim terrorist apologists say. It makes me feel these rebels are of the same, irrational and insane mindset.

I wanted to say that I think the non-military locals - the small-time farmers and miners there - are doing everything they can (or are allowed) to do to help. I want to thank those Ukranian locals as this must be so hard for them too.

They've been leaving flowers on the bodies. They care. That's important.

Your post made me tear up. It is important and very touching. There is humanity amidst the evil.

This is only one person's experience of the scene, remember that the wreckage spans over a span of miles. I've seen pictures which depict bodies in vastly different conditions, some incredibly damaged others suprisingly not so.

There have been quite a few reports of looting, I think this is perhaps referring to the looting of the luggage which fell from the plane rather than from the passengers though.

Several articles have shown a pile of passenger passports, so someone (probably investigators on site) have looked through luggage to get a hold of these. You can see an image of these here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ead-Malaysian-Airlines-MH17-shot-Ukraine.html

It's strange to see a mention of human skeletons, I'm not sure why a body would be in such a state at this point. I've seen absolutely terrible images of the passengers, but none I'd describe as 'skeletons'. Of course I'm not there and this reporter was, i'm not doubting it. I'm just trying to say that I think there are very different scenes, depending on where you are observing the sites.

I think some may be skeletons depending on whether they were burnt, how close they were to the explosion, etc. Clearly, many people were not burnt up.

Read More: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

It is truly horrifying and disgusting that these soldiers/militia/whatever they are will not let the people who are trained to deal with disasters of this magnitude into the crash scene. The victims of this tragedy at the very least deserve the respect of having their mortal remains cared for by people who know what they are doing. These are people, men women and children that have been lying in those fields since yesterday. It is inexcusable the disrespect for the human lives lost.

It scares the crapola out of me also that the very people that could tell the world what happened to that plane are not allowed in. How is this ok?

I agree. It really bothers me. I feel that a bunch of ruthless thugs who were likely the ones who caused this horror, are just milling about, and casually hampering recovery and reconstruction efforts. They should be ashamed. This should be handled by professionals in an orderly, and respectful manner, not by militants. Lets have a professional delegation from he effected countries, those who have expertise and those who have an interest. That probably means both Russian and Ukrainian officials, as well as Australian, British, Dutch, Malaysian, etc. But to have these militants just milling about like that with their masks on, handling objects, reportedly spiriting things away, makes me sick. It's like the fox guarding the hen house. Or something.

That actually sounds a lot like some of the stuff I have actually seen being posted by apparent Russians or at least Ukrainian Russians on Yahoo discussion boards. I usually do not engage on those things but the past day I have gotten into flame wars with these people. Most seem young and very angry at the West. They think Putin is marvelous and seem to think nothing at all about the victims. it is all a 'plot' by 'fascists' to frame Russia. They also think those of us posting with horror at what happened are being paid by officials in the Ukraine. I have yet to see any Russian expressing sorrow at this tragedy. Not once.

In the defense of Russian citizens:

It now looks like even the Russian people do not believe Putin. Outside the Dutch embassy in Moscow, Russian citizens have been leaving flowers and even signs that say, “forgive us.” Check out the pictures below:
http://heavy.com/news/2014/07/forgive-apology-russians-flowers-dutch-embassy-ukraine-plane-malaysia/

The US values their friends above all and will help whenever they are called to do so. It is who they are and what they do. When MH370 reportedly went down in the Southern Indian Ocean it was Australia and the US that responded. China did also. But Russia was absent and to this day I have not seen it reported that they attempted to help.

I'm old enough to remember the cold war. I remember bombing drills where we had to put our heads between our knees in school. This happened pretty regularly. Russia was our only threat at the time. Now it is terrorists that are the threat.

Many nationalities were on this flight. Maybe we need to do more pulling together to help get those bodies back to their loved ones and help get the investigative personnel in there to do their jobs. There are always two choices in our world today. We can just sit there, or we can do something. jmo

But how, if the separatists are not letting rescue and recovery people in?

Frankly, I can't begin to wrap my mind around how this all works, especially when dealing with apparently ignorant people with machine guns, in a war zone.

I don't think anyone is trying to directly blame MAS, they did not say hey ho, here we are, try to shoot us down. As you say, other airlines also continued to fly over that airspace despite the warnings. But it certainly would have benefited 289 people if more airlines erred on the side of caution and avoided the area - as a number of airlines have done for months.

That's true. Many airlines decided the risk was there and not worth it.

If people actually knew how common it is for planes to fly over conflict areas, they won't be saying all this bs about MAL. It is about probability.

I don't know that it's total b.s. One would think that after the horrible disappearance of their plane last march, they would take extreme safety measures. The probablities that such events would happen TWICE to the same airline within less than a year, are so remote I don't know how they can be figured. Decisions make those probabilities increase. I'm not saying MAL was negligent but there is a possibility they were to some degree.

MH17: Australian flags to be flown at half-mast as nation mourns victims

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-australian-flags-flown-half-mast

Oh. That made me tear up as well.

 

[CARIIS]

These trained monkeys pointed a very dangerous missile launcher toward the sky and pushed the button. They had no idea what they were shooting at and for that matter didn't care. They have no respect for human life and after this they don't deserve to live.

At this point it is not who did it, this is a humanitarian issue. There are human beings laying dead in a field and have been for over two days. Come together and do the right thing and get those bodies out of there and to a respectable place. If we have to go in there with guns blazing then that is what we do. Are we or any other country going to forsake our morals as human beings and let a few dumb *advertiser censored* rebels keep us for doing the moral act of removing them? If this is what the world has come to we are doomed.

For a day or two declare a break and take care of this incident. Then you can go back to killing each other for no reason, but don't disrespect 298 people who had nothing to do with this insane conflict. jmo

These trained monkeys pointed a very dangerous missile launcher toward the sky and pushed the button


totally agree

-I think they messed up casue they are not really trained (earlier post) with link. There are three components to the system. The most important ones the idiots did not have so they just went for it and here we are with 300 people destroyed.

Like IMO, they did not say lets shoot a commerical aircraft they just did not know how to operate it correctly. And it is a heat seeking missle, so if we pretend there was a milittary aircraft in the area (lower altitufe?) the morons thoght lets get that, but the missle tracked on the heat being generated by the 777.

WHich in another context makes sense, I am not sure, but I think it might be safe to say that there probably isnt a military aircraft in a third world setting is flying these huge military aircraft that would exceed the heat of the 777 huge engines, so it makes sense that the heat seeking missle locked on the 777 engine output heatwise. Just imo

 

[SouthAussie]

NYT Graphics @nytgraphics
Updated map shows launch area of missile that shot down Flight 17, according to U.S. official: http://nyti.ms/1yCUaos

 

[SouthAussie]

MH17 passenger list by PatrickHatch

A full list of passengers aboard Malaysian Airlines flight 17 has emerged.

The list, posted on Dutch website Geenstijl, gives the names and seat numbers of those on the doomed flight and shows there were three infants aboard.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysi...sian-border-20140718-3c4nl.html#ixzz37s8O1qyK

:rose: raying:

ETA: There are 2 more pages of this list. They can be viewed at the 9:05 post at the link.

 

[CARIIS]

Why this happened does not matter. It happened now go and fix the results. That is the immediate issue as I see it. Please get those babies and their parents out of those fields. This is so inhuman and I can't believe it is happening. They have laid in those fields for 3 freaking days. It just makes me sick. We all know who did it so now someone needs to fix it. jmo

I agree but fear its too late. They are out in the middle of nowhere - listen to how long reporters in a car are saying it takes to get out there. They are gonna need refriderated trucks, they probably do not have em for this amount of death, then even if the could attempt to began to "organize" this we are into much more decomp.

Just getting the real amount of resources needed to do this is just not gonna happen..........its past the point of no return

using Pan AM 103 casue it was bomb ------Over a thousand police officers and soldiers carried out fingertip searches of the crash site that lasted for months,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_bombing_investigation

Plus this was in a easily accesible area, they were not enemies, they wanted (the people of Lockerbie) wanted answers. They had technology resources etc

Lets not forget that what MAl 370 had 26 countries and lets see how far that got us.............................

anyone off top of head know like how many people this terrorist group is like number of em .

 

[Skittles]

That's like the young fellow reporting yesterday for CBS. For the life of me I cannot remember his name, but I want to say Wadley? God bless him, he was so shaken up by what he was seeing that he could barely speak, coupled with the fact that he was being escorted by rebel forces, apparently.

I know these reporters are used to seeing far more than the average citizen sees, but for their sakes I hope every one of them seeks counseling after witnessing and reporting on this carnage.

Edit: It was ABC, not CBS. Sorry.

The ABC freelance reporter was John Wendle. See this report:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airline-plane-downed-ukraine-witness-bodies/story?id=24607366