Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #3

[Little Jedi]

In this video, Polish - American journalist Anne Applebaum explains Russia's involvement in Ukraine.

"According to the renowned journalist/columnist Anne Applebaum *the crash is the result of the Russian invasion in Eastern Ukraine* that caused only chaos. Russian president Putin aimed to create that chaos and therefore he's guilty, argues Applebaum"

When was this Russian Invasion ??

( I'm gonna take a wild guess that this has been translated by Google !)

 

[Intermezzo]

Tweet from @globeandmail - 12m

Ottawa blames Putin for downed Malaysian airliner
http://t.co/Igw4M6fS7k #MH17 #cndpoli From @stevenchase
http://t.co/EjWW4hSkMp

http://twitter.com/globeandmail/status/491584220817788928
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this is what else Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird (the tweet above is from him) and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper have said

http://o.canada.com/news/john-baird...h-site-promises-more-sanctions-against-russia
But Baird said no one believes what Russia has to say about the incident, and that Putin bears ultimate responsibility.

“The Kremlin may not have pulled the trigger, but it certainly loaded the gun and . . . put it in the murderer’s hand,” said Baird. “Russia is not fooling anyone.”

Prime Minister Stephen Harper also issued a statement on Monday, saying the crash is a direct product of Russia’s aggressive actions.

“The outrageous and criminal act of shooting down a civilian airliner last week is a direct product of Russia’s military aggression and illegal occupation of Ukraine, and demonstrates the need for the international community to continue applying pressure on the Putin regime,” Harper’s statement said.

 

[Bravo]

I don't think they have a "green light" necessarily, but I think they are doing it with the best of intentions. Their retrieval of personal property might be the only hope of having it returned to a family member. Otherwise I fear it would end up lost in that mess forever. I would appreciate any journalist who went through my loved one's belongings and managed to find anything at all that I could hold on to. IMO there is a big difference between rifling through property for personal gain and going through property in the hopes of finding personal items for the families.

I agree. Anyone with honorable intentions with personal belongings I fully support. Given the circumstance. IMO.

 

[mck16]

I agree. Anyone with honorable intentions with personal belongings I fully support. Given the circumstance. IMO.

But how would anyone know who these personal items belonged to without going through other belongings to find out. ty

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, that is a MUST WATCH!! Thank you for nudging me to watch it properly Frightening how predictable this was .. I'm so saddened that planes were still allowed to fly over such a dangerous area ..

Yes, a definite MUST WATCH .. thanks to you all for nudging me to watch it.

For those who don't have the few extra minutes to watch (though I'd seriously recommend it) ....


“What you are basically saying is that Putin unleashed a pack of wild dogs, and it has got out of hand terribly.”

“He unleashed not exactly a pack of wild dogs, the people are trained operatives, they have been employed by Russia in other places .. they have worked in Chechnya, Afghanistan, one of them was a former leader of the Latvian KGB, these are people who are known to the Russian Govt.

I don’t know if Putin controls these people, it may be that he does not, but he is certainly responsible for sending them equipment, and the missiles that took down this plane. They are the only people in the area that are using those kind of weapons. The Ukraines are not using them because the separatists do not have airplanes.

There is no question in my mind who is responsible .. it is Putin and a Russian policy that sought to create chaos.

Waiting for an investigation that by definition is going to be unsatisfactory is not going to help solve anything.”

 

[kimi_SFC]

When was this Russian Invasion ??

( I'm gonna take a wild guess that this has been translated by Google !)

No, she speaks for herself in English with Dutch subtitles (correct me if I'm wrong ZaZara)


Please, watch the video and decide for yourself.... :seeya:

ETA: ZaZara's OP was very clear - the video switches to English after the first 15 seconds. If you click the link, you'd never guess that, because the entire page is NOT in English. HTH.

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[kimi_SFC]

"Australian forensic experts, including the team from the Victorian Institute of Forensive Medicine, led by Professor David Ranson will arrive in Amsterdam on Wednesday and will go straight to Hilversum.

The team will also include mortuary technicians, odontologists and fingerprint experts.

Relatives of the Australian victims have already provided police with DNA and other personal information about their loved ones which will also be used to help the identification process.

The bodies of the Australian victims will ultimately be handed to a funeral contractor who will prepare them for the long journey home in specially iced caskets inside the cargo hold of the RAAF’s biggest aircraft."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mh...-flies-them-home/story-fniztvne-1226998041829


(Don't mean to appear biased in the Aussie reporting, but I just want Aussie posters to know what is happening with our people. We do care very much about all the victims :rose

:rose:
:grouphug:


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[Mrs G Norris]

In a nutshell she describes how Putin engineered chaos in the area by sending in his own men to organise and facilitate what appears to be an East Ukraine rebellion against the Ukrainian government, also describes the supply of weapons. So he didn't 'invade' the area as such, but rather engineered the destabilisation .. knowing this, and considering the planes already shot down ALL carriers should have been avoiding the area. She also is realistic enough to say:

Waiting for an investigation that by definition is going to be unsatisfactory is not going to help solve anything.”

http://nieuwsuur.nl/video/677013-anne-applebaum-legt-schuld-bij-poetin.html

 

[SouthAussie]

The owner of the equipment should be held responsible.

Yes ... it could be viewed as similar to this.

Someone Borrowed My Car and got in an Accident ... Have you ever let someone borrow your car only to find out they got into an accident? ... By allowing another driver to operate your vehicle, you are taking responsibility for the driver.

http://carinsurance.about.com/od/Ca...ne-Borrowed-My-Car-And-Got-In-An-Accident.htm

And I guess that is why it is so important to prove where that missile came from. Are we going to find enough identifying parts of the missile, with the way the rebels are removing site debris?

 

[mck16]

Witnesses are fixing to speak on CNN. It is 6:26. Do you think they will be truthful or too frightened to tell what they really saw?

 

[hayaletcatcher]

*As a Red Cross worker there may be some bias ahead*

I understand the questions of where is the Red Cross, but really what can they really do here now? They aren't crash site investigators and there are no survivors that need emergency help, I'm sure they'd be helping locals on site if they was allowed... They work in the back ground in cases like this. Dealing with the humanitarian side, they have always been there.

Number of people affected: almost the entire population of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine
http://www.ifrc.org/docs/Appeals/14/IB_Russia_Population_Movement.pdf


It can not be seen in any way political (and this is what it has become, sadly) and RC is fighting very hard to help the suffering people in Kiev and other parts of the Ukraine and Russia that are living in this war and planning for its escalation. I think they can not risk getting kicked out, these people NEED them. I haven't seen any nation calling upon the Red Cross, there is no lack of countries having independent investigators being sent there, if only they could get access to it.

https://www.ifrc.org/en/news-and-me...es-and-prepares-for-any-potential-escalation/

Plus with Gaza at the moment the IFRC has a lot of work cut out for it.

Totally IMO.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

In a nutshell she describes how Putin engineered chaos in the area by sending in his own men to organise and facilitate what appears to be an East Ukraine rebellion against the Ukrainian government, also describes the supply of weapons. So he didn't 'invade' the area as such, but rather engineered the destabilisation .. knowing this, and considering the planes already shot down ALL carriers should have been avoiding the area. She also is realistic enough to say:

Waiting for an investigation that by definition is going to be unsatisfactory is not going to help solve anything.”



http://nieuwsuur.nl/video/677013-anne-applebaum-legt-schuld-bij-poetin.html

RBBM The video states Russia invaded Eastern Ukraine in an unorthodox manner. Basically Russia sent in a group of mercenaries to organize local thugs and criminals to take over government buildings, airports and any signs of authority. They wanted to create a zone of lawlessness and chaos. Once they did that they sent in weapons and heavy equipment. IMO The Russians invaded Ukraine. Putin is responsible for sending in the types of weapons that were used to take down the plane. The Ukranians didn't have a need for this type of weapon.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Yes, he just did so in a backwards kind of way .. most likely to avoid the international consequences, like sanctions for instance.

 

[Bravo]

Gosh on CNN right now. Bodies falling where children played. The trauma is far reaching.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I just had a suspicion ..

The number of bodies that arrived in the train’s refrigerated rail cars was significantly lower than the 282 bodies, plus 87 body parts believed to belong to the remaining 16 victims, that Ukrainian officials have said were recovered. The train, which left the rebel-held mining town of Torez on Monday night, took more than 17 hours to travel a route that normally takes five hours or less.

Asked about the discrepancy, Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, said on Tuesday in Donetsk that 290 was “the last number [of bodies] we were told” had been recovered. “We had no possible way to verify that count,” he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-bo...ch-official-20140723-zvv7l.html#ixzz38FH8tCtE

What if the discrepancy is because the 'rebels' held back bodies that showed damage that could have been caused by shrapnel .. is that possible or am I way off? I imagine there are some which are simply not recovered yet.

 

[mck16]

I just had a suspicion ..

The number of bodies that arrived in the train’s refrigerated rail cars was significantly lower than the 282 bodies, plus 87 body parts believed to belong to the remaining 16 victims, that Ukrainian officials have said were recovered. The train, which left the rebel-held mining town of Torez on Monday night, took more than 17 hours to travel a route that normally takes five hours or less.

Asked about the discrepancy, Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, said on Tuesday in Donetsk that 290 was “the last number [of bodies] we were told” had been recovered. “We had no possible way to verify that count,” he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-bo...ch-official-20140723-zvv7l.html#ixzz38FH8tCtE

What if the discrepancy is because the 'rebels' held back bodies that showed damage that could have been caused by shrapnel .. is that possible or am I way off? I imagine there are some which are simply not recovered yet.

They just reported on CNN that the inspectors had only been through 2 cars of the 5. So, who knows. It seems they are just grabbing anyone that will talk to them and reporting what they said. They need to have some coordination and only one spokes person. jmo

 

[mck16]

Gosh on CNN right now. Bodies falling where children played. The trauma is far reaching.

I felt sorry for those teachers. One of the bodies that fell was a child. They are just innocent victims themselves. This is something they will never forget. jmo

 

[SouthAussie]

I just had a suspicion ..

The number of bodies that arrived in the train’s refrigerated rail cars was significantly lower than the 282 bodies, plus 87 body parts believed to belong to the remaining 16 victims, that Ukrainian officials have said were recovered. The train, which left the rebel-held mining town of Torez on Monday night, took more than 17 hours to travel a route that normally takes five hours or less.

Asked about the discrepancy, Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, said on Tuesday in Donetsk that 290 was “the last number [of bodies] we were told” had been recovered. “We had no possible way to verify that count,” he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-bo...ch-official-20140723-zvv7l.html#ixzz38FH8tCtE

What if the discrepancy is because the 'rebels' held back bodies that showed damage that could have been caused by shrapnel .. is that possible or am I way off? I imagine there are some which are simply not recovered yet.

I have wondered about those first 38 victims that were taken to a morgue. Were they returned with the rest of the victims that were returned? Why were those 38 singled out to be taken to the morgue? I suspect that these victims may have had obvious shrapnel wounds that still contained shrapnel. Remember the reports about the rebels doing 'autopsies'.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I have wondered about those first 38 victims that were taken to a morgue. Were they returned with the rest of the victims that were returned? Why were those 38 singled out to be taken to the morgue? I suspect that these victims may have had obvious shrapnel wounds that still contained shrapnel. Remember the reports about the rebels doing 'autopsies'.

Yes, that is what I was wondering .. why were they singled out .. perhaps it was simply because they were more visible than the others, but yes I wonder ..

 

[LietKynes]

Apologies if this is too graphic :


Someone had a link upthread that quoted a person familiar with missiles and the damage they can do ... that it took probably no more than 30 seconds for everyone to be deceased --- from the time the missile's shrapnel blew a hole in the plane.
I was hoping death was instant ; but 30 seconds is a long time when you're dying from being unable to take a breath (depressurized cabin), falling, or burning up.

It would be good if there were to be true justice meted out towards those who carried out this appalling crime ; but I fear that the powers that be over there ( like perhaps Putin himself ?) will simply grab some men who happened to be in the area and execute them with trumped-up charges ; all just for show ?
Maybe I've become too jaded. There are times when I distrust msm in my own United States. I don't know if what gets printed/televised on some of the major news sources hasn't been doctored or edited to sway people. And if so, that is not journalism--- that's propaganda. Imo.