Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #3

[Donamena]

I don't suppose sending NATO out to secure the crime scene would be appropriate or within the parameters of its mission?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Now what will happen to the rescue operation? The entire Ukrainian Government, including the Prime Minister, just resigned.

But it's the government that just agreed to let the search teams in so......?

https://mobile.twitter.com/maxseddon

Another tweet about it from CNN. No stories up yet.

https://mobile.twitter.com/CNNLADavid

I just saw this ..

[h=1]Ukraine’s Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk has resigned as two political parties leave majority coalition and punches fly in parliament[/h]
http://www.news.com.au/world/ukrain...ly-in-parliament/story-fndir2ev-1227000691658

Well if that's not playing right into Putin's hands I do not know what is .. he almost has a valid reason to move into Ukraine now and restore order since nobody is running the country anymore ..

 

[ZaZara]

I don't suppose sending NATO out to secure the crime scene would be appropriate or within the parameters of its mission?

It is not, as you so aptly put it, within the parameters of it's mission.
This was not an attack on The Netherlands or any other NATO member-state.
Ukraine is a member of Partnership for Peace, not of NATO.

NATO apart, the separatists are extremely well armed and have their provider nearby.
If you want to start WW III, it would be a tad odd to do this over the recovery of human remains and the wreckage of an airplane.

Access to the location will have to be negotiated. Ukraine has already agreed to signing over the leadership of the investigation to The Netherlands.
International pressure is on Putin to convince him that housepoints are to be won if he cooperates and puts the squeeze on the separatists.
And the separatists should be praised for handing over the black boxes which they claimed were unharmed, and indeed, so they appear to be.
So housepoints to Alexander B. too.

They are still making progress, one step at the time, and we don't know what is going on behind doors.


IHMO when all is said and done and it is not going to happen, then someone will have to tell the families that this is as good as it gets.
Fortunately, up till now, things did happen, even if it took time.

 

[ZaZara]

..

74 hearses on their way from eindhoven to hilversum today





Picture made by Michael van Poppel @mpoppel

 

[ZaZara]

ANDERSON COOPER CNN INTERVIEWS DUTCH PM RUTTE

35 seconds:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/tv/nieuws/binnenland/22894318/__CNN_interviewt_Rutte__.html

Interview happened right after PM Rutte's press conference
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/nieuws/2014/07/24/40-marechaussees-naar-oekraine.html

Translation of the main part of Dutch PM Ruttes press conference:

(.....)

The next few days, at least until Saturday, more victims will be transferred to The Netherlands. And that will always take place according to the same ceremonial, with dignity and respect.

After this return of the first victims, our commitment to achieve the three main objectives continues. Namely bringing home all the victims, clarity about the circumstances and a just punishment for the perpetrators. And I want to update you on what we are doing now and what we will do.

As you know, the international context in which we must operate, is diffuse. And the security situation in Eastern Ukraine fluctuating. And that requires that the Cabinet musy operate cautiously, at the same time, with a great sense of hurry and urgency. The Cabinet is working on a number of options to help create a more stable environment for bringing back the victims still over there. And in this context the Government currently sends a notification letter to the Parliament, with the aim to investigate modalities for support of the implementation of the UN Security Council resolution of last Monday.

Also, we ponder how we can create a stable environment and we are already operating with extra capacity to do all that needs to be done. While the operation with the air bridge is in full action, two Dutch Forensic experts of the National Team Detection are returning to the location of the disaster. They will continue their search work there tomorrow. Tomorrow another seven experts will depart from Kharkov the day after tomorrow again seven and a day later another seven. They will search for victims and investigate. As of tomorrow, they will be supported by 40 members of the Royal Military Police, without armament. All this will take place in cooperation with the deployment of OSCE and forensic and research capacity from different countries on the crash site.

I now want to brief you on the number of victims still left behind. The number of 203 body bags has been mentioned. In fact, this tells us very little about the exact number of victims that has been salvaged. To determine this, forensic research is needed, such as is now being done in Hilversum. There are 203 body bags, but then again, that actually says nothing about the number of recovered victims. The chances are still high that even now victims' remains are to be found on the location .
Meanwhile in Hilversum, a team of more than 200 international experts is working on the identification of the victims that are being brought in arriving there since yesterday.
Earlier today FM Timmermans has signed in Kiev the decision that formally gives The Netherlands the lead in the investigation into the disaster and [formalizes] the fact that the identification of the victims takes place here in The Netherlands.

(....)

 

[ZaZara]

Reporte Olav Koens @obk just retweeted this:

Geretweet door Olaf Koens
Kevin Rothrock ‏@KevinRothrock 17 min.

The most tweeted image on the RuNet today belongs to @kapinusnatalia. Here it is, with the caption translated.


View attachment 55543

 

[mck16]

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

I got this message when trying to view attachment.

 

[ann-other]

I don't contribute much and am finding this new format a little difficult, tried to add to quote and comment but failed! To ZaZara in particular, I have been humbled to watch how The Netherlands has treated both the bodies, body parts and the pain of the families, from every country affected, with such care, dignity and respect.

 

[ZaZara]

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

I got this message when trying to view attachment.

I don't know what is the matter with the pictures.
This particalr picture was normal, then a link and now it appears as a tile. Well, two tiles, because I added the same picture again.

:noooo:

Weird.

 

[ZaZara]

FOR BOTH OF THEM, THIS IS JUST A MINOR INCIDENT

Dutch reporter Olaf Koems @obk interviewed by CNN

Olaf Koens ‏@obk 15 min.

The sad truth is that both for the rebels and the Ukrainian army, the downing of flight 17 is just a 'minor incident'
http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2...v-olaf-koens-mh17-plane-crash-rebels.cnn.html …

The interview refers also to this essay that Olaf Koens wrote. He has been at the location of the crash almost since day 1.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118823/what-its-walk-through-wreckage-malaysia-airlines-fligh


" I Slept Next to the Wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. The crisis in Eastern Europe didn't really hit home. Until it did.

Last Saturday, I woke up on a green stretcher. I don't remember how I fell asleep, but I remember how I woke up. By the horrible thought it was day. There was light. Now I would see it all. The only thought that comforted me was that from now on, things couldn't possibly get any worse."



:rose:

 

[Donamena]

I'm not sure of the rules for posting poetry, so Lambchop please snip if necessary.

The Netherlands are an amazing people. Had they and the Malaysians & the Australians been allowed to come immediately, this travesty of the staggering amount of time loss & uneven handling of the crime scene could have, would have been avoided. I am heartened by the professionalism & respect shown around their country. The victims are in great & humane hands of their country, as well as the victims of Malaysia & Australia & England & our American-Dutch young man.

"No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent.
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were,
As well as if a manor of thy friend's,
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee." John Donne

 

[redheadedgal]

I can't help with the rest of your questions, but experts said victims would have been unaware and didn't suffer.

sadly, there are other opinions...

While it would have taken the plane minutes to fall from 33,000 feet, hypoxia would have rendered anyone who survived the initial blast unconscious within 30 seconds, Waldock said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/moment-of-impact-mh17s-final-seconds-20140719-zuuqh.html#ixzz38QnvVWTc

maybe the voice recorder will reveal if the pilots were conscious after the explosion... but, would they even release that info? would they want victim's loved ones to know the possibility existed passengers were awake, aware and horrified?

wasn't there a news reports that two victims were found in their seats hugging? wouldn't that indicate they knew?

 

[BJsleuth]

sadly, there are other opinions...



maybe the voice recorder will reveal if the pilots were conscious after the explosion... but, would they even release that info? would they want victim's loved ones to know the possibility existed passengers were awake, aware and horrified?

wasn't there a news reports that two victims were found in their seats hugging? wouldn't that indicate they knew?

The effect of decompression would daze them within 12-15 seconds. Hopefully they didn't feel anything.

Time of Useful Consciousness. The time of useful consciousness is the time your brain is awake enough to be useful and make decisions. This varies from almost indefinite at 10,000 to 9 to 12 seconds above 40,000 feet. An explosive or rapid decompression will cut this time in half due to the startle factor and the accelerated rate at which an adrenaline soaked body burns oxygen.

http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181893-1.html?redirected=1

 

[LambChop]

There are some things we just do not need to see or read. Please post responsibly regarding the victims.


Thank you, Lambchop

 

[SouthAussie]

I've seen the Red Cross guys there on the news, with only one mission, to protect bodies still there. I guess as it became clear not as many was recovered as first thought, and since they have only just themselves classed it as a war zone, it now hits our fundamental principles. This was a very spilt topic at work today, many think those teams are needed to protect and help the living that are suffering in the surrounding area, that the site doesn't need more people walking around before a proper full investigation team. Maybe they know that is never going to happen? It's a hard one for sure.

My hopes are only that all are safe and they know how proud their society is of their bravery and work.

Yes, I saw this pic today, which seems to show the Red Cross there.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...an-investigators/story-fnizu68q-1227001124772

 

[SouthAussie]

Article also says that more wreckage has been found in the forest (which someone has posted about up-thread) and that more remains have been found.

"The head of the Dutch police mission also had difficulties when attempting to recover more bodies from the site.

“But the process is not over, there are still remains in your country and it’s very hard to get there because there are some, and I would say it’s not politically correct, but there are still some lunatics there,” Jan Tuinder said. “It’s very hard for us to get to the remains.”

However, the OSCE denied that there had been any incidents.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...an-investigators/story-fnizu68q-1227001124772

 

[Donamena]

ZaZara, thank you so much for clearing my head about NATO. I'm so out of touch with what's going on outside my own sphere, I apologize for sounding so ridiculous. I must re-educate myself. Mil gracias.

 

[geevee]

U.S. Says Russian Artillery Firing Across Border Into Ukraine

WASHINGTON—U.S. defense and diplomatic officials said Thursday that Russia is firing artillery across its border at Ukrainian military positions, an assertion that Moscow now is directly engaging in hostilities against Ukrainian government forces.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-says-russia-firing-across-border-into-ukraine-1406231618

 

[Meryl12]

FOR BOTH OF THEM, THIS IS JUST A MINOR INCIDENT

Dutch reporter Olaf Koems @obk interviewed by CNN

Olaf Koens ‏@obk 15 min.

The sad truth is that both for the rebels and the Ukrainian army, the downing of flight 17 is just a 'minor incident'
http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2...v-olaf-koens-mh17-plane-crash-rebels.cnn.html …

:

What is so heartbreaking for us all is that we realise this is the truth of the situation..

This is just a minor incident (for them) .....[/B]

 

[SouthAussie]

Radio interview this morning with Scott Bevan (Australian journalist .. previous Moscow correspondent) ….


“Scott, you travelled to Hilversum today to find out what was happening with the forensic investigation. What can you tell us?

"Where they're being taken to is usually a military base, indeed today we saw military trucks going in, but at the moment it is in effect a laboratory …

And, indeed, outside the gates Chris, this base has taken on another role. It's a laboratory in effect inside, outside it's become a memorial, and there's this constant stream of people coming up, laying flowers, tying balloons to the fence, putting down words that they've written, their thoughts.”

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2014/s4053471.htm