MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #1

[SStarr33]

BBM

"Handcuffs prevent a person from being able to brace themselves in a fall, placing pressure on the head and neck when they land."

Very interesting.

Of course they do. Kind of goes without saying.

 

[MissSunshine]

I agree.

I think there were several opportunities for at least one of the police officers to notice that FG was in dire need of medical assistance.

If even one of them had done the right thing & had gotten FG the immediate medical care that he needed, we'd be looking at a different outcome in this case, IMO. IDK if it would have been enough to save FG's life, but it may have been enough to prevent everything that's occurred in these past few days.

I agree that medical care should have been given right away. IMO, the problem is determining if the officers knew that he was severly injured and ignored his pleas for help or if they didn't think he was that hurt and was just over exaggerating a very minor injury. Not that either scenerio is right but it could play a role in what, if any, charges are brought against certain officers. On top of that, determining how he was injured and which officer may be at fault seems to be difficult because arresting officer are saying it wasn't us and van driver is saying wasn't anything he did either.

 

[SStarr33]

Jayne Miller
@jemillerwbal
BPD Commissioner Anthony Batts on 4/23 told us second prisoner in police van said Freddie Gray was "mostly quiet".

Jayne Miller
@jemillerwbal
We have reported that when van stopped to pick up 2nd prisoner, sources say, Gray was unresponsive. No evidence banging head against van

https://twitter.com/jemillerwbal

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/...ers-that-i-saw-there-were-not-out-of-control/

Bubala: “What happened in that van? Do you have any better idea about exactly what happened?

Batts: “The second prisoner who was picked up is that he didn’t see any harm done to Freddie at all. What he has said is that he heard Freddie thrashing about. The driver didn’t drive erratically, wasn’t slamming on breaks wasn’t turning corners fast or in an irrational way.

 

[sorrell skye]

I agree that medical care should have been given right away. IMO, the problem is determining if the officers knew that he was severly injured and ignored his pleas for help or if they didn't think he was that hurt and was just over exaggerating a very minor injury. Not that either scenerio is right but it could play a role in what, if any, charges are brought against certain officers. On top of that, determining how he was injured and which officer may be at fault seems to be difficult because arresting officer are saying it wasn't us and van driver is saying wasn't anything he did either.

It comes as no surprise that no one is claiming responsibility. Why would they? If any of the arresting or transporting officers are indeed responsible, why would any of them want to come forward and say "It was me"? - especially if any of them are criminally or negligently responsible?

 

[MissSunshine]

Batts: ‘The Officers That I Saw There Were Not Out Of Control’

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/...ers-that-i-saw-there-were-not-out-of-control/

Bubala: “What happened in that van? Do you have any better idea about exactly what happened?

Batts: “The second prisoner who was picked up is that he didn’t see any harm done to Freddie at all. What he has said is that he heard Freddie thrashing about. The driver didn’t drive erratically, wasn’t slamming on breaks wasn’t turning corners fast or in an irrational way.

I am bumping this up. This is what Batts said in the 23rd. It says the other prisoner heard him thrashing around.

 

[sorrell skye]

They probably figured he was lying because they hear that all the time (I just saw it on a video of someone being arrested last week) or because they figured how could someone who couldn't breath be so active.

They are not paramedics.

FG didn't look so active when he was being loaded into the police van.

And yes - LE are not paramedics - so they shouldn't be making decisions about who needs medical care & who doesn't.

 

[MissSunshine]

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/...ers-that-i-saw-there-were-not-out-of-control/

Bubala: “What happened in that van? Do you have any better idea about exactly what happened?

Batts: “The second prisoner who was picked up is that he didn’t see any harm done to Freddie at all. What he has said is that he heard Freddie thrashing about. The driver didn’t drive erratically, wasn’t slamming on breaks wasn’t turning corners fast or in an irrational way.

You were faster than me. I think I need faster internet lol.

 

[KEVINinTO]

I agree that medical care should have been given right away. IMO, the problem is determining if the officers knew that he was severly injured and ignored his pleas for help or if they didn't think he was that hurt and was just over exaggerating a very minor injury. Not that either scenerio is right but it could play a role in what, if any, charges are brought against certain officers. On top of that, determining how he was injured and which officer may be at fault seems to be difficult because arresting officer are saying it wasn't us and van driver is saying wasn't anything he did either.

BBM I think that this will be the biggest obstacle for bringing criminal charges against any of the officers since it will be impossible to pinpoint which of the many officers involved in the original take-down and the transfer are to blame for the fatal injuries. And we now have reason to believe based on the earwitness testimony of the other prisoner that FG may have deliberately caused his own injuries.

 

[mysteriew]

Jayne Miller
@jemillerwbal
BPD Commissioner Anthony Batts on 4/23 told us second prisoner in police van said Freddie Gray was "mostly quiet".

Jayne Miller
@jemillerwbal
We have reported that when van stopped to pick up 2nd prisoner, sources say, Gray was unresponsive. No evidence banging head against van

https://twitter.com/jemillerwbal

Uh oh

 

[SStarr33]

Uh oh

LOL, keep reading. She has a bad source.

 

[K_Z]

I'm just glad all posters here are open-minded and have no preconceived notions.

Well, I'll go on record that I remain very suspicious as to what happened, and I'm not at all ready to blame the officers until I hear a whole lot more about the details of the injuries, and mechanism of injury.

It's almost painfully obvious, IMO, that the details of his medical care, and the details of his injuries are being very conscientiously and aggressively withheld from the public. Just vague references to "severed" spinal cord, and "fractured vertebrae", and "crushed" larynx-- which are certainly sobering, but do not at all tell what happened-- especially in light of his hospitalization and surgery several days before he died. There is a LOT that happened in that week in the hospital that we don't know about.

Two autopsies were done, and miraculously, not s SINGLE detail of either has come out-- not even from the family's own private autopsy. My hinky meter is pegged full on. Something in the medical records and/ or autopsy is highly inflammatory or controversial, IMO, or SOMETHING more detailed would be coming out. CNN would exhaustively have diagrams and experts educating the public about the nature of the injuries, etc. and how the injuries "must have" occurred.

Something very odd is going on, IMO. I get that the final tox won't be back for a little while (and what they're waiting on is ADVANCED tox-- like eye fluids, advanced pathology slices of brain, spinal cord, etc). But there is a tremendous amount of information that is known NOW that everyone is choosing to suppress.

And my instinct says that if that information in any way would show the LEOs in a more negative light, or a more responsible light, that info would be shouted from the rooftops, in light of the riots. The officers are already assumed completely responsible for excessive force, so why in the world withhold information from the public to reinforce that? Everyone is far too content, IMO, to allow the vague information to suffice as evidence that the officers abused this man to death.

Also, I note that the officers have not been fired, nor arrested, at this point in time.

It's my growing suspicion that there is something objective in his medical records, or autopsy results, that is not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors, and there is fear that releasing that objective information may lead to fresh riots. JMO.

I can't hold the officers responsible for anything, until I know a whole lot more specific information about his injuries, and the WHOLE situation leading up to the arrest.

 

[SStarr33]

FG didn't look so active when he was being loaded into the police van.

And yes - LE are not paramedics - so they shouldn't be making decisions about who needs medical care & who doesn't.

Freddie's legs could have been asleep when he was being moved to the van not to mention that they had one of his legs all jacked up next to the the wheel of the bike.

 

[MissSunshine]

LOL, keep reading. She has a bad source.

She most certainly is. Batts is on video saying it on the link you provided a week ago. I wonder if Jayne Miller has a video of Batts saying that about the 2nd prisoner.

 

[KEVINinTO]

Quote Originally Posted by SStarr33 View Post
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/0...ut-of-control/

Bubala: “What happened in that van? Do you have any better idea about exactly what happened?

Batts: “The second prisoner who was picked up is that he didn’t see any harm done to Freddie at all. What he has said is that he heard Freddie thrashing about. The driver didn’t drive erratically, wasn’t slamming on breaks wasn’t turning corners fast or in an irrational way.

From the interview this stood out for me

Batts: “What I don’t know is what happened before that filming. I don’t know if someone put hands on him. I don’t know if he jumped over a fence and may have hurt himself and injured himself.

Did FG jump a fence or is this pure conjecture on Batt's part? If FG did in fact jump a fence he could have sustained injuries in a subsequent fall. Perhaps leg injuries which would explain his difficulty standing up. Of course this will be answered by the autopsy.

 

[mysteriew]

K_Z your reasoning is very convincing and you could very well be right. I also believe they are having the results rechecked and double checked again. Because they know if they go before the public with vague statements that the officers were cleared, Baltimore will errupt again.

One thing I have noted is that by this time we would usually hear from the police comm. vague statements vowing that if the officers were the cause, he would make sure they came to justice. We haven't heard that so far.

IMO this may still go before the GJ though, just to make it clear that they aren't hiding anything.

I do believe there will be repercussions on at least some of the officers. For failing to get medical care and for not buckling him in.

 

[K_Z]

I've watched the video of his arrest several times, and I can't see a single thing that makes me think the officers were doing anything wrong at that particular moment in time.

I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of videos of arrests much worse than that. Many, many suspects holler, scream, yell "you're hurting me", go limp, drag their legs and feet, etc. It's part of the theatrics of arrest, IMO. The officers seem very calm and nonplussed-- they don't appear angry or vindictive, or lashing out. So I'm giving them benefit of doubt until I see a whole lot more evidence that they did something horribly wrong, or excessive.

And the police van seat belt rule, as I understand it, was very new, and just implemented. That doesn't mean they were right for not belting him down if the rule was there-- but it could explain why they didn't do it.

There are cases of excessive police force, for sure. But I'm not convinced yet that this case is an index "example" case. I'm getting the feeling that socially it's being made into something it isn't, and never was. Like some other recent cases. IMO.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

And the thick plottens.........................

IDK what to think about all this "new info" about FG's injuries and how they were sustained.
I do admit that the poster above that talked about the family having done their own autopsy and THAT autopsy has not be released - or even talked about gives one reason for pause. The family would be screaming to high heaven if their independent autopsy revealed LE at fault or even in question.

And now no autopsy is going to be released on Friday - why is that?

Either way this is not going to fare well for Baltimore. Its a shame and very scary.




JMHO

 

[sorrell skye]

Well, I'll go on record that I remain very suspicious as to what happened, and I'm not at all ready to blame the officers until I hear a whole lot more about the details of the injuries, and mechanism of injury.

It's almost painfully obvious, IMO, that the details of his medical care, and the details of his injuries are being very conscientiously and aggressively withheld from the public. Just vague references to "severed" spinal cord, and "fractured vertebrae", and "crushed" larynx-- which are certainly sobering, but do not at all tell what happened-- especially in light of his hospitalization and surgery several days before he died. There is a LOT that happened in that week in the hospital that we don't know about.

Two autopsies were done, and miraculously, not s SINGLE detail of either has come out-- not even from the family's own private autopsy. My hinky meter is pegged full on. Something in the medical records and/ or autopsy is highly inflammatory or controversial, IMO, or SOMETHING more detailed would be coming out. CNN would exhaustively have diagrams and experts educating the public about the nature of the injuries, etc. and how the injuries "must have" occurred.

Something very odd is going on, IMO. I get that the final tox won't be back for a little while (and what they're waiting on is ADVANCED tox-- like eye fluids, advanced pathology slices of brain, spinal cord, etc). But there is a tremendous amount of information that is known NOW that everyone is choosing to suppress.

And my instinct says that if that information in any way would show the LEOs in a more negative light, or a more responsible light, that info would be shouted from the rooftops, in light of the riots. The officers are already assumed completely responsible for excessive force, so why in the world withhold information from the public to reinforce that? Everyone is far too content, IMO, to allow the vague information to suffice as evidence that the officers abused this man to death.

Also, I note that the officers have not been fired, nor arrested, at this point in time.

It's my growing suspicion that there is something objective in his medical records, or autopsy results, that is not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors, and there is fear that releasing that objective information may lead to fresh riots. JMO.

I can't hold the officers responsible for anything, until I know a whole lot more specific information about his injuries, and the WHOLE situation leading up to the arrest.

BBM

What info do you believe is being withheld that is "not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors"?

If there is objective medical information that would exonerate the arresting officers, how could withholding that info lead to further riots?

 

[mysteriew]

As far as the seat belt rule, a family member of one of the officers has said tonight that they haven't been buckling because when they do they have to reach across the the arrestee. Which puts them in danger of being bitten or spit on.

 

[mysteriew]

BBM

What info do you believe is being withheld that is "not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors"?

If there is objective medical information that would exonerate the arresting officers, how could withholding that info lead to further riots?

Because some will believe that info is being covered up. And there are some others that IMO do not want to hear that cops were not the cause. Because he has become their cause.