MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #1

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Sean Hannity interviewed the FG family lawyer and asked him about the internet rumor that FG had surgery to his spine or back. The lawyer gives an unconvincing "not that we are aware of". FG lived with his family at the time of his death. They would know for sure whether he did or didn't have spinal surgery and yet their lawyer is unable to give an unequivocal response to this question? Seems fishy to me.

Here is the interview:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/42030065...nrest/?playlist_id=930909813001#sp=show-clips

Yeah. The lawyer, and everyone else in the family, and the authorities who have seen the medical records and autopsies, know with certainty if this is a rumor, or fact. That they are unwilling to say equivocally "no" he never had any spine surgery before the hospitalization, or "yes", is curious and suspicious, at the least.

Like I said, there is something very odd about the way medical information is coming out on this case. Something is there, IMO, that isn't consistent with the information that has been put out up until now. And everyone is deflecting and sidestepping the truth. IMO. It will all come out at some point. The question is, why the deflection and suppression? What is to gain by that?
 
Am I correct in that FG coulld have had a fractured spine, walked around talked and so forth until some type of movement or activity moved that fracture out of position and into contact with the spinal cord, or broke off a fragment which made contact with the cord and caused damage to the cord?

Yes. Also could have had a type of acute dislocation, called a subluxation.

More on cervical fractures:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/824380-overview
 
We have become such an "instant society" that the old way of holding off on releasing information doesn't work anymore. Back in the day, it was believed that if you just sit back for a few days - people will "move on" to new stories or "forget" or calm down. That doesn't work now.

There is information out there that would quell some of this unrest. Why hold out? Now it seems to the reverse effect - people don't calm down or forget - they get mad.



JMHO
 
The man was presumably injured in police custody. That makes LE defacto responsible for his death, to the public.

In the same way that many believe the surgeons and ICU staff are responsible for the death of Jahi McMath, simply because she had surgery and complications that became fatal.

The general public wants to quickly assign affirmative "blame" for complications. The officers may have affirmatively killed FG, or he may have died as a result of complications that could not be foreseen. We just don't know yet.

But it makes the rioters feel their grievances are "heard" to riot, assault, steal, loot, and burn, so that's what they do. Once the momentum begins, they can't control themselves, IMO. And the reasons they riot aren't fixable, IMO-- only controllable, with outside pressure and sound riot policing. We will never prevent the type of crowd psychology that leads to criminal riots-- IMO, it isn't possible. We just have to learn what works to calm them down and control them more effectively, IMO. Miserable job, IMO.
 
We have become such an "instant society" that the old way of holding off on releasing information doesn't work anymore. Back in the day, it was believed that if you just sit back for a few days - people will "move on" to new stories or "forget" or calm down. That doesn't work now.

There is information out there that would quell some of this unrest. Why hold out? Now it seems to the reverse effect - people don't calm down or forget - they get mad.



JMHO

This is the problem. Information that should quell unrest seems to have an opposite effect with this particular community. A good example of this is the MB case. You would think that when police released the video of the strong-arm robbery showing MB ruffing up the poor shop-keeper (who was half the "gentle-giants" size) that people would stop seeing MB as a sympathetic figure. Instead just the opposite happened and MB's family and protesters were outraged that police would dare release a video that put their "gentle giant" in such a bad light and the riots actually intensified.
 
There are rumblings starting that he "did it" in the bacck of van . I just cant imagine tho, how I could crush my own larynx myself it seems like it would hurt before you could complete that type damage to "self" ?????????????????????????
 
I posted earlier in the thread that I really want to know the specifics of the mechanism of injury. That information may implicate the officers, or may help to exonerate them. We just don't know, because, IMO, everyone is quite happy to let the vague and INDIRECT information hover out there inflaming passions.

People hear "fractured", "severed", and "crushed", and THINK they understand what happened. There is a rush to judgment to blame police for excessive force, when it may or may not have happened.

I want to know the ACTUAL information, not some sanitized, imprecise, or whitewashed version. I want to know what happened before the cell phone video. I want to know his medical history, and his law enforcement history. I want to know what happened in the van, when they discovered him unresponsive, and what happened during his course of hospitalization. I want to know which specific vertebrae were fractured, and what KIND of facture occurred. I want to know what his laryngeal injuries were. I want to know the EXACT level and pathology of the spinal cord injury. I want to know if he had a head injury. I want to know what his medical history is. I know that there are numerous ways to arrive at "fractured, severed, and crushed"-- and not all of those ways implicate the police for excessive force.

And if there is objective information that exonerates the officers, Baltimore and other cities will surely burn again, IMO. No question. There will definitely be fresh rioting and violence, and fresh targeting of police officers. These officers HAVE to be guilty of *something* for any kind of peace to hold, IMO. That's the dilemma facing authorities, IMO.

I just nominated this well stated post as candidate for Post Of The Day. I hope I did it right, LOL
 
Well, I'll go on record that I remain very suspicious as to what happened, and I'm not at all ready to blame the officers until I hear a whole lot more about the details of the injuries, and mechanism of injury.

It's almost painfully obvious, IMO, that the details of his medical care, and the details of his injuries are being very conscientiously and aggressively withheld from the public. Just vague references to "severed" spinal cord, and "fractured vertebrae", and "crushed" larynx-- which are certainly sobering, but do not at all tell what happened-- especially in light of his hospitalization and surgery several days before he died. There is a LOT that happened in that week in the hospital that we don't know about.

Two autopsies were done, and miraculously, not s SINGLE detail of either has come out-- not even from the family's own private autopsy. My hinky meter is pegged full on. Something in the medical records and/ or autopsy is highly inflammatory or controversial, IMO, or SOMETHING more detailed would be coming out. CNN would exhaustively have diagrams and experts educating the public about the nature of the injuries, etc. and how the injuries "must have" occurred.

Something very odd is going on, IMO. I get that the final tox won't be back for a little while (and what they're waiting on is ADVANCED tox-- like eye fluids, advanced pathology slices of brain, spinal cord, etc). But there is a tremendous amount of information that is known NOW that everyone is choosing to suppress.

And my instinct says that if that information in any way would show the LEOs in a more negative light, or a more responsible light, that info would be shouted from the rooftops, in light of the riots. The officers are already assumed completely responsible for excessive force, so why in the world withhold information from the public to reinforce that? Everyone is far too content, IMO, to allow the vague information to suffice as evidence that the officers abused this man to death.

Also, I note that the officers have not been fired, nor arrested, at this point in time.

It's my growing suspicion that there is something objective in his medical records, or autopsy results, that is not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors, and there is fear that releasing that objective information may lead to fresh riots. JMO.

I can't hold the officers responsible for anything, until I know a whole lot more specific information about his injuries, and the WHOLE situation leading up to the arrest.

Wow great post!
Thank you!!
 
I just nominated this well stated post as candidate for Post Of The Day. I hope I did it right, LOL

I second this nomination! The post from K_Z is the MOST informative from a medical/legal perspective!
 
The man was presumably injured in police custody. That makes LE defacto responsible for his death, to the public.

In the same way that many believe the surgeons and ICU staff are responsible for the death of Jahi McMath, simply because she had surgery and complications that became fatal.

The general public wants to quickly assign affirmative "blame" for complications. The officers may have affirmatively killed FG, or he may have died as a result of complications that could not be foreseen. We just don't know yet.

But it makes the rioters feel their grievances are "heard" to riot, assault, steal, loot, and burn, so that's what they do. Once the momentum begins, they can't control themselves, IMO. And the reasons they riot aren't fixable, IMO-- only controllable, with outside pressure and sound riot policing. We will never prevent the type of crowd psychology that leads to criminal riots-- IMO, it isn't possible. We just have to learn what works to calm them down and control them more effectively, IMO. Miserable job, IMO.

Thank you so much for all of your informative posts. I am now having quite heated debates with a friend b/c, as intended IMO, she can't get passed the "his spine was severed at the neck, " narrative. IDK what happened in this case, but what I do know is that all of this sort of info is coming directly from the family's lawyers rather than the ME. It's also quite surprising to me that the private autopsy results haven't been released.

Like I said, IDK what happened, but I want all the info before passing judgement. Instead we are being fed inflamitory sound bites that create a visceral image so strong that contrary info will be ignored and swept aside as "meaningless." Perfect example was Darryl Parks was on one of the shows last night, continuing to insist that Michael Brown was murdered with his hands in the air, and that Darren Wilson should be in jail.

It's no wonder that many are so quick in their rush to judgement when even those who should know better are doing the same thing.

All MOOOOOOOO
 
Ha ha - I said to my partner last night if I was a bar owner, I'd be upset about this curfew because it would impact my business.

I'd imagine all the stolen liquor would be keeping the bars slow too ;)
 
My brother has a bar in Baltimore and he is very displeased about the curfew.
 
I agree with others that we need the full autopsy report to better understand what may have happened.

The one thing I am taking a guess at is that his injury was caused before he got in the van. I base that guess on the way he was obviously in a lot of pain and holding his head sideways before he even got in. It sure looks like he had a bad injury before he got in there.

I dont understand why the autopsy report cannot be released sooner. In a lot of these cases it seems to take way too long to get information released. I know it takes some time for some things but still. It sounds like the autopsy was already done. So why not release it.
I agree with others that something in that report may make the rioters more angry and maybe there was an agreement to hold it until things quiet down some.

This whole thing is so upsetting and there has been way too many of these types of situations. Whether it be police shootings, beatings like the horse guy, or something like this. Just way too many lately.
 
I agree with others that we need the full autopsy report to better understand what may have happened.

The one thing I am taking a guess at is that his injury was caused before he got in the van. I base that guess on the way he was obviously in a lot of pain and holding his head sideways before he even got in. It sure looks like he had a bad injury before he got in there.

I dont understand why the autopsy report cannot be released sooner. In a lot of these cases it seems to take way too long to get information released. I know it takes some time for some things but still. It sounds like the autopsy was already done. So why not release it.
I agree with others that something in that report may make the rioters more angry and maybe there was an agreement to hold it until things quiet down some.

This whole thing is so upsetting and there has been way too many of these types of situations. Whether it be police shootings, beatings like the horse guy, or something like this. Just way too many lately.

I'd venture there are no more situations of these types than usual, they are just being pounced on and used for an agenda. Now, if anyone wants to go into "situations", black on black crime is off the charts. Why isn't this blown out of proportion? I wonder why our president never talks about that?

My opinion only
 
I'd venture there are no more situations of these types than usual, they are just being pounced on and used for an agenda. Now, if anyone wants to go into "situations", black on black crime is off the charts. Why isn't this blown out of proportion? I wonder why our president never talks about that?

My opinion only

In his own words... This is not new this has been going on for years..
I know he was talking about something else but it still fits.
 
I agree with others that we need the full autopsy report to better understand what may have happened.

The one thing I am taking a guess at is that his injury was caused before he got in the van. I base that guess on the way he was obviously in a lot of pain and holding his head sideways before he even got in. It sure looks like he had a bad injury before he got in there.

I dont understand why the autopsy report cannot be released sooner. In a lot of these cases it seems to take way too long to get information released. I know it takes some time for some things but still. It sounds like the autopsy was already done. So why not release it.
I agree with others that something in that report may make the rioters more angry and maybe there was an agreement to hold it until things quiet down some.

This whole thing is so upsetting and there has been way too many of these types of situations. Whether it be police shootings, beatings like the horse guy, or something like this. Just way too many lately.

bbm, Yes it is too many, it reminds me of the boy who cried woof, now hearing what has come out. jmo idk
 
I'd venture there are no more situations of these types than usual, they are just being pounced on and used for an agenda. Now, if anyone wants to go into "situations", black on black crime is off the charts. Why isn't this blown out of proportion? I wonder why our president never talks about that?

My opinion only

I suspect you could be right that they may have been happening all along and with the age of video recording on phones these days, we are seeing more of them come to light.

Having body cameras on policeman is a natural progression to help document the truth in any incidents. There was already a big push for cameras on police cars. It seems body cameras may be a natural progression. If I was a policeman, I would welcome that so as to not get accused of something I didnt do.
 
I am waiting to hear again what the mayor said in reference to the change in heart about releasing information tomorrow. For locals it's am 99.1 (wnew) it's continual cycle of news/weather/traffic updates around wash/balt. jmo idk
 
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