MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[jjenny]

The FL guv or AG made that political decision when the local DA failed to indict Zimmerman, citing lack of evidence likely to result in a conviction iirc.

Prosecutor isn't supposed to bring a case to trial unless he/she believes there is a reasonable chance of conviction. Local DA knew what he was doing.

 

[BirdycatNY]

I understand overpolicing but also I did see something and I cannot link. Believe it was on WBAL that Freddie may have been an actor in his arrests for the community and once inside the precinct he was a bit of an informant.
I once again will say the first time he asked for medical assistance they should have called for it. I know often it is faked but protocol is call every time.

I read somewhere that Mr. Gray had acted out during previous arrests before (will try to find link). But if that is true and if Mr. Gray was well known to LE, then it may be Mr. Gray didn't exhibit out of ordinary behavior upon arrest for him. It will be interesting to see the facts in this case; do LE use body cameras in Baltimore, and if so, any videos of Mr. Gray's prior arrests? Jmo/

 

[leah]

I have no idea why at least one of the cops didn't insist on getting medical care for FG. Would it have interfered with their day to make sure he wasn't faking something, or he was really hurt? Are these callous cops, do they just not care about their job anymore, are the people in the neighborhood just not that important, so why waste time? For me, excuses for this not happening don't mean anything to me, I'm not wired to just let someone who needs care just suffer, and me walk away and not get help.

 

[Curious Guy]

The whole interview is unsubstantiated opinion of an anonymous person. It doesn't belong in MSM.

Kind of like all the talking heads on CNN , MSNBC, ETC. So now we should silence dissent . How ironic.

 

[BirdycatNY]

Prosecutor isn't supposed to bring a case to trial unless he/she believes there is a reasonable chance of conviction. Local DA knew what he was doing.

ABA rules of professional conduct- prosecutors should refrain from prosecuting charge that is not supported by probable cause. I don't know about MD. http://www.americanbar.org/groups/p...special_responsibilities_of_a_prosecutor.html

 

[CoolJ]

IIRC, it was the 41 yo white Lt. Rice bike cop who initiated the pursuit of FG, calling for backup along the way, and the two young, white bike cops responded. If so, there was only a "he" after FG and no "they" until later on. I definitely think Nero and Miller, who on video seem to be handling FG with care, were over-charged.

Oh quite possibly they are "over charging" everyone involved because they want some of the 6 officers to talk. They want the truth. Who ordered the "rough ride"? Who ordered the detainment of FG and why? Was he an informant? Was he gang affiliated or was he dealing for corrupt cops?

 

[popsicle]

Malik Shabazz defends activism; criticized as an 'interloper'

Not everyone is pleased that Shabazz still has a platform in the city.

Since his arrival, political, religious and community leaders have denounced Shabazz as a self-interested agitator.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-malik-shabazz-20150501-story.html

 

[popsicle]

The whole interview is unsubstantiated opinion of an anonymous person. It doesn't belong in MSM.

The person is only anonymous to the viewers, not the show producers.

 

[DebinGA]

I have no idea why at least one of the cops didn't insist on getting medical care for FG. Would it have interfered with their day to make sure he wasn't faking something, or he was really hurt? Are these callous cops, do they just not care about their job anymore, are the people in the neighborhood just not that important, so why waste time? For me, excuses for this not happening don't mean anything to me, I'm not wired to just let someone who needs care just suffer, and me walk away and not get help.

IIRC FG asked for his asthma inhaler at the initial arrest site, but didn't exhibit an obvious, immediate need for EMTs. That came later, and I suspect the experienced, older van driver, Officer Goodman was the main impediment to getting FG medical help sooner, since Goodman faces the most serious charges of the 6.

 

[bettybaby00]

This case like so many others here, usually reflect bias, and by bias I mean that everyone here brings their own personal experiences to the table when commenting & "taking sides."

I'm white and grew up in a stereotypical white, neighborhood (think the wonder years)

I have an older brother who for whatever reason became involved with drugs, dealing and general negative behavior as teenager. It wasn't long before he became an addict (heroin) and was continually having run ins with LEOs.

As a family we were lucky bc he moved out way before things got really ugly and we didnt have to witness every horrible aspect of what was happening in his life.

My point being, my brother ended up in the seedy areas of NYC bc that's where his actions propelled him. He was arrested many times, roughed up many times, and spent many a night in jail bc of missed court appearances and having outstanding warrants bc he failed to pay fines / summons.

This went on for almost 20 years and it was all on him IMO. He was treated the way he was treated bc of who he was, who he associated with, and bc most importantly he broke the law.

I'm not trying to make FG out to be some horrible, violent criminal, he's not, nor was my brother. Yet the way he lived made him much more likely to have very bad things happen to him, just like my brother.

I strongly believe that no matter how bad your situation in life is, there is a way out if you are determined enough. I don't think FG lived long enough to realize that and that's truly tragic, however, IMO it doesn't automatically mean he was murdered by these cops.

All MOOOOO and all that

 

[MissSunshine]

All you have to do is look at the route taken by the van to the police department. A 3 minute drive took 30 minutes. They were taking him "for a rough ride". Even the union president said it!

They were originally headed to Central Bookings which is along the route the van took.

 

[katydid23]

We have looked up MD knife laws & they are purposefully written to be ambiguous...there's interpretations based on concealed knives, pen knives, names of various knives that ok or not ok,
And there's regs based on what county you live in MD as well.
So it's more complicated than what we would like it to be.
No fault of ours.

And this^^^^ is what a few of the arrests of the officers is based upon. They were LEGALLY ALLOWED to arrest him if it was an illegal knife. This prosecutor has said it was not an illegal one, so that means those officers should be arrested and sent to jail---for mistakenly determining it was an illegal knife in the fleeing suspects pocket?

 

[kaen]

double post, sorry

 

[kaen]

IIRC, it was the 41 yo white Lt. Rice bike cop who initiated the pursuit of FG, calling for backup along the way, and the two young, white bike cops responded. If so, there was only a "he" after FG and no "they" until later on. I definitely think Nero and Miller, who on video seem to be handling FG with care, were over-charged.

I don't think the charges stem from the take down and arrest (except for the false imprisonment). Each of the officers were present at other stops along the way to the jailhouse. If you read the statement given by Mosby, she details what actions were taken at the stops that corresponds with the charges. For example Nero and Miller---

False Imprisonment -Lt. Rice, Officer Miller and Officer Nero failed to establish probable cause for Mr. Gray’s arrest as no crime had been committed by Mr. Gray. Accordingly Lt. Rice Officer MIller and Office Nero illegally arrested Mr. Gray. Upon arrival of the transport wagon driven by Officer Caesar Goodson. Lt. Rice Officer Miller and Officer Nero loaded Mr. Gray into the wagon and at no point was he secured by a seatbelt while in the wagon contrary to a BPD general order. Lt. Rice then directed the BPD wagon to stop at Baker Street.

(Possibly assault? by placing him back in the van unsecured) At Baker Street, Lt. Rice, Officer Nero and Officer Miller removed Mr. Gray from the wagon, placed flexi-cuffs on his wrists, placed leg shackles on his ankles and completed required paperwork.



Officer Miller, Officer Nero and Lt. Rice then loaded Mr. Gray back into the wagon, placing him on his stomach, head first onto the floor of the wagon. Once again Mr. Gray was not secured by a seatbelt in the wagon contrary to a BPD general order.

THEN, there was the second stop with the video from the market that we have not seen yet. (I don't think.) We do not know who was present.



Later, (failure to get him medical attention) --Officer Goodson arrived at North Avenue to transport the individual arrested at the location of North Avenue and Pennsylvania Avenue at which time he was again met by Officer Nero, Miller and Porter. Once the wagon arrived, Officer Goodson walked to the back of the wagon and again opened the doors to the wagon to make observations of Mr. Gray.

Sgt. Alicia White, Officer Porter and Officer Goodson observed Mr. Gray unresponsive on the floor of the wagon. Sgt. White who is responsible for investigating two citizen complaints pertaining to Mr. Gray’s illegal arrest spoke to the back of Mr. Gray’s head. When he did not respond, she did nothing further despite the fact that she was advised that he needed a medic. She made no effort to look or assess or determine his condition.

Despite Mr. Gray’s seriously deteriorating medical condition, no medical assistance was rendered or summoned for Mr. Gray at that time by any officer. http://time.com/3843870/marilyn-mosby-transcript-freddie-gray/

 

[Boytwnmom]

that is unethical and improper. A prosecutor is bound by the normal rules of professional responsibility but is also bound by special rules in light of their power & authority.

Rule 3.8 Special Responsibilities Of A Prosecutor

The prosecutor in a criminal case shall:

(a) refrain from prosecuting a charge that the prosecutor knows is not supported by probable cause;

I still don't know enough to objectively evaluate. But given the various roles of the officers involved and the conclusion that the injury occurred during the drive, it does seem likely that at least some of the charges against some of the officers are not supportable.

If it turns out that any of these charges were based on other than the prosecutors good faith assessment of probable cause there could be ramifications depending on whether a complaint is filed. As noted the standard is whether the prosecutor "knew" which is defined as "...actual knowledge of the fact in question. A person's knowledge may be inferred from circumstances."

All I know for sure so far is that I'm really glad I don't live in Baltimore.

Oh quite possibly they are "over charging" everyone involved because they want some of the 6 officers to talk. They want the truth. Who ordered the "rough ride"? Who ordered the detainment of FG and why? Was he an informant? Was he gang affiliated or was he dealing for corrupt cops?

 

[kaen]

IIRC FG asked for his asthma inhaler at the initial arrest site, but didn't exhibit an obvious, immediate need for EMTs. That came later, and I suspect the experienced, older van driver, Officer Goodman was the main impediment to getting FG medical help sooner, since Goodman faces the most serious charges of the 6.

Mosby's accounting of FG's requests comes from police interviews. FG asked for an inhaler before the van arrived (Miller and Nero) He did not get medical attention. Goodson stops to check him but renders no assistance. Two blocks later, Goodson says he needs to check him again, stops, and requests additional units. FG said he could not breathe. Goodson and Porter say that FG assented for medical assistance twice. Goodson and Porter placed him on the bench and did not get him medical assistance. Goodson and Porter discussed need for assistance but Porter left for another arrest site. Goodson followed to the other site with the van. Nero, Porter and Miller were at the next site when Goodson, Porter and White found FG unresponsive and still did not get medical assistance.

Goodson does bear the bigger share of the responsibility but all of them are not trained EMTs and should have gotten medical help for him. EMTs and highly trained people know that even an asthma attack can degrade into a life threatening situation quickly. Having taken First Aid and CPR for the Professional Rescuer, my training was exactly that breathing issues can require more advanced medical care, even with medications or inhalers. The emergency response system should have been activated.

 

[K_Z]

[h=1]Across Country, Police Scrutinized After Baltimore Arrests[/h]
Former law enforcement officials, prosecutors and defense attorneys say the intense scrutiny being cast on the behavior of police departments nationwide — especially regarding their treatment of minorities — could lead to a temptation to stop pursuing certain crimes and suspects rather than risk accusations of
misconduct.

"The biggest danger is that the police officer will not properly perform his duties," said Robert Leight, a former detective in Pennsylvania who has worked for the FBI and as a federal prosecutor and defense attorney. "It puts him at risk, it puts the other officers around him at risk, and it puts the public at risk. ... A police officer must react instinctively as he has been trained. If a police officer first thinks about what liabilities he will be facing, it's too late."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/country-police-scrutinized-baltimore-arrests-30751981

Exactly. Couple that with direct orders from the mayor to let the rioters destroy property, and stand down.

I honestly have no idea anymore why any police officers are willing to go into these dangerous zones and neighborhoods. Especially white officers. Why even do it? The crooks and gangs all want to kill them, and their supervisory chain scapegoats them and neuters them. The cynical side of me says there is no effective way to police in these kinds of neighborhoods. Maybe we should just stop trying. Save the people who want to get out and try to live a decent, law abiding life. Help those who will help themselves. Build a big fence around the rest, and make those un policed zones. Let the crooks all kill each other and burn and loot whatever's left. It's becoming harder and harder for me to see the crooks, gang bangers, and rioters as even human. They have depersonalized themselves by their own behavior, IMO. I can't even begin to muster any sympathy for them.

It's very frustrating that any police officer has to deal with these people day after day, just waiting for some crooked political tinder to ignite and ruin their lives. I can believe many would just stand by and let the criminals do whatever they want.

I think every single one of the looted businesses, vandalized property owners, everyone who was a victim of the incompetent and corrupt Mayor's decision to have police stand down, should file a hundreds of million dollars class action lawsuit against the Mayor and the city of Baltimore. I think the mayor should face criminal charges herself, IMO. I just can't believe this level of corruption is happening in my country. This is not the kind of America I served for, for so many years. This is shameful and disgraceful.

 

[DebinGA]

A recent Gallup poll indicating over half the people in Maryland said they'd leave if they could now makes perfect sense.

Rechecked and need to correct above: MD is 3rd at 47%, behind IL and CT, of states with the most residents who'd leave if they could. Fewest residents wanting to leave are in HI.

 

[jjenny]

Mosby's accounting of FG's requests comes from police interviews. FG asked for an inhaler before the van arrived (Miller and Nero) He did not get medical attention. Goodson stops to check him but renders no assistance. Two blocks later, Goodson says he needs to check him again, stops, and requests additional units. FG said he could not breathe. Goodson and Porter say that FG assented for medical assistance twice. Goodson and Porter placed him on the bench and did not get him medical assistance. Goodson and Porter discussed need for assistance but Porter left for another arrest site. Goodson followed to the other site with the van. Nero, Porter and Miller were at the next site when Goodson, Porter and White found FG unresponsive and still did not get medical assistance.

Goodson does bear the bigger share of the responsibility but all of them are not trained EMTs and should have gotten medical help for him. EMTs and highly trained people know that even an asthma attack can degrade into a life threatening situation quickly. Having taken First Aid and CPR for the Professional Responder, my training was exactly that breathing issues can require more advanced medical care, even with medications or inhalers. The emergency response system should have been activated.

Be it as it may, how does failure to get an immediate medical assistance translate into murder charges?

 

[jjenny]

A recent Gallup poll indicating over half the people in Maryland said they'd leave if they could now makes perfect sense.

Is it above the other states?