MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #3 *INDICTMENT*

[EllieBee]

When I was first on a grand jury 20 yrs. ago, the most amazing thing was that almost all the cases were plead out by the time they got to us. The Asst. DA would give a brief summation of the facts (~1 min. each) we'd all say "true bill" in unison. The cases were overwhelmingly drug related with a few burglaries thrown in. There's no room in jail for low-level drug perps like FG, unless there's violence present imo, especially in a cash-strapped place like Baltimore.

It is sad but true that space is at a premium and should be saved for the violent rapists and killers and armed felons. I think it is a problem in many cities.

 

[EllieBee]

Trying to figure out when FG's life-threatening injuries could have occured during police custody. I'm not sure of the "stop numbers" but iirc this is Mosby's sequence of events:

* Cops handcuff FG and seat him in van, unbelted

* Soon after (~1-2 blocks later) Rice shackles FG's legs and lays him facedown on the van floor w/his head pointed at the driver cab

* Mystery Stop - Goodson stops and goes back to check on FG. Goodson continues driving until next stop.

* Goodson calls for help and Ofc. Porter arrives (Dolphin St.) Porter talks with FG and "assists him" from floor onto seat [perhaps at FG's request?] and unbelted [perhaps because FG told Porter he was having difficulty breathing, and Porter didn't want to "cinch" FG in/constrain him and make his ability to breathe even harder?] Goodson and Porter are discussing transporting FG to get medical attention when a units-respond call for help near FG arrest site comes in.

*Porter leaves Goodson/FG and responds to that call. Goodson soon follows and is met there by Sgt. White. White, Porter, and Goodson check and find FG on the floor and "unresponsive".

Just offered to help figure out when a catastrophic spine injury could have occurred? When Porter picked up FG from the floor and set him upright on the seat? From FG standing up in the moving van after Porter left and falling to the floor, hitting the "bolt" along the way? Other scenarios?

Thank you for laying it out like this. It's hard to keep it linear in my disorganized head, lol.

I don't have a scenario to offer. I think there will be quite a bit more pieces of this puzzle. We may never know the whole story, especially if the charged officers plead to lesser charges.

It is hard, but we just have to wait.

 

[CARIIS]

I've been trying to get past this but I just literally can't. This is unreal.

Am I being punked? Is this serious? Are we seriously defending a man who was involved in a standoff with police for AN HOUR AND A HALF with a gun, threatening the lives of himself and his so-called loved ones?! If he were any other citizen than a COP, NO ONE would be defending his actions. There would be a whole lot of "it doesn't matter if the ex's husband was a bad man, you can't take people hostage with a gun!!!" but since he's a cop it's ok?!??! REALLY????????

This mentality right here is why people are so outraged and upset. THIS. Because bad LEO are defended and excused and allowed to continue to be bad LEO. That makes all the GOOD LEOs suffer. STOP EXCUSING BAD COPS

:facepalm:

My dear my only response is TY - that scene would be hideious if it were not a cop - the fact that it was a cop, who continued to get a taxpayer funded paycheck, well no words

If he was a ceo of IBM he would have been fired the next morning goodness

he was threatening another human being for over a year

l!ordy

 

[ShadyLady]

here you go . . . http://www.wbaltv.com/news/second-m...um=twitter&utm_source=trueAnthem:+New+Content

as for your 2nd question - no idea

Thanks...but I wish I could see the whole uneditted version.

Also, important question, was William Murphy the Cray's lawyer representing Cray in his previous cases?

And what was the case that Murphy was handling that when Mosley became prosecutor that she dismissed [nolle prosequi]??

 

[CARIIS]

Based on what Ive seen of the case, I certainly hope so. Justice is not being served if these mens lives and careers are ruined as part of a political witch hunt.

I never thought I would live to see the day in this country when LE is reviled while looters and career criminals are praised as heroes.

a 25 year old is dead - they lied and covered up about a mystery shop, and collectivily ignored a human being who was clearly stating that he was in need of a hospital

cops are not doctors, what is the worst that would have happened - they took him to a hospital, and he was fine well fine - they decided to do nothing, and a 25 year old is dead - it really is just that simple, and that not ok, and yes, someone must be held responsible for if nothing else, ignoring a drug dealers request for medical help

 

[CARIIS]

Just dont get how the media keeps getting all caught up in all this other stuff

Here IS what we know:
A 25 year, capable of running/ biking/ breathing. 45 minutes later, in the hands of tax payer paid employees, is removed with no heartbeat nor lungs that are inhaling or exhaling.......that is it. That is what we know, that is a fact. That is a unacceptable fact, IMO. Peroid.Its really simple.............and it is really not ok...........imo simple .

 

[MissSunshine]

Thanks...but I wish I could see the whole uneditted version.

Also, important question, was William Murphy the Cray's lawyer representing Cray in his previous cases?

And what was the case that Murphy was handling that when Mosley became prosecutor that she dismissed [nolle prosequi]??

The case she dismissed was against one police officer who was charged in the death of a dog. There were 2 charged with it and only the one represented by Murphy got the nolle prosequi.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...ficer-dog-killing-dismiss-20141212-story.html

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...g-killing-charges-dropped-20150114-story.html

 

[K_Z]

Thanks...but I wish I could see the whole uneditted version.

Also, important question, was William Murphy the Cray's lawyer representing Cray in his previous cases?

And what was the case that Murphy was handling that when Mosley became prosecutor that she dismissed [nolle prosequi]??

BBM.

I think that case is attached as exhibit 4 to the Motion to Recuse/ Dismiss Charges. I don't have that handy, but will look.

William Murphy represented Marilyn Mosby in a complaint dated 31 Oct 2014, and there is some question as to whether he is still representing her. The complaint was reported to the Attorney Grievance Commission of Maryland, and no action was taken on the complaint. (Copies of the response letter to the complainant from the Attorney Grievance Commission which specifically name William Murphy as Mosby's attorney, are available if you search online. (Not sure which sources I can link here.)

Attorney Murphy donated $5000 to her campaign.

He served on her transition team.

It appears that the charges were dropped in the "nolo prosequi" ruling on her first day in office as a "thank you" to William Murphy.

He now represents FG's family.

All that is a ginormous glaring conflict of interest for MM. She needs to recuse herself. There is no justification or defense to this level of conflict of interest. IMO.

In addition to a lot of other reasons outlined in the Motion to Recuse/ Dismiss.

 

[katydid23]

a 25 year old is dead - they lied and covered up about a mystery shop, and collectivily ignored a human being who was clearly stating that he was in need of a hospital

cops are not doctors, what is the worst that would have happened - they took him to a hospital, and he was fine well fine - they decided to do nothing, and a 25 year old is dead - it really is just that simple, and that not ok, and yes, someone must be held responsible for if nothing else, ignoring a drug dealers request for medical help

No, it is not really all that simple. There is a lot of backstory and a lot of context that is being left out when you describe it that way. JMO

 

[ShadyLady]

The case she dismissed was against one police officer who was charged in the death of a dog. There were 2 charged with it and only the one represented by Murphy got the nolle prosequi.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...ficer-dog-killing-dismiss-20141212-story.html

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...g-killing-charges-dropped-20150114-story.html

Wow. Charges dropped. Why cut the throat when dog was subdued?

 

[ShadyLady]

What lawyer is representing Donta Allen, and what was he picked up for? How did he get out so quickly?

 

[shadowraiths]

Can You Run From Police? US Courts Apply a Double Standard

When police spotted Freddie Gray and he took off running through his Baltimore neighborhood, officers made a split-second decision to give chase, setting in motion his death in custody and rioting in the streets.

Fleeing from police is not, by itself, illegal in America, and the U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that in safe neighborhoods, people not suspected of criminal activity can ignore a police officer who approaches them, even to the point of walking away.

But courts have set a different standard for places where street crime is common, ruling that police can chase, stop and frisk people if their location contributes to a suspicion of criminal activity.

This double standard is having a major impact as more black men die in encounters with police around the country. Many have been shot or tackled while trying to flee. The court rulings justifying police chases in high-crime areas where many African-Americans live are contributing to a dangerous divide between police and citizens, said Ezekiel Edwards, director of the Criminal Law Reform Project at the American Civil Liberties Union.​

ABC News

 

[MissSunshine]

Wow. Charges dropped. Why cut the throat when dog was subdued?

That I can't answer but the officer who did that is still facing charges. The argument comes in that the dog was already deceased when the officer cut her throat. The officer who restrained the dog with a dog loop or something like that, is who had his charges dismissed.

 

[Boytwnmom]

irrelevant to this case. From looking at the records of the people involved, Rice, Mcaleer, Karyn Marsh Crisafulli Mcaleer, all of them have multiple divorces, paternity suits, custody suits, etc etc. The ex wife/gf has had a variety of last names and recently had her name formally changed back from Mcaleer, her most recent ex who has made all the claims about Rice.

I wouldn't even try to hunt down all the parties involved in their domestic messes. But the bottom line seems to me that the most recent ex, Mcaleer, had charges sustained and final protective orders issued more than once for DV. Karyn just divorced him and had her name formally changed to remove his so it does seem he was not likely a terribly good guy. Since he is the one who made the "threats of violence" allegations against Rice I'm not even sure how believable they are. The documented issue regarding Rice is a claim to hurt himself not someone else. Rice had no DV or protective orders. And his recent run in was because Karyn DID have a protective order against Mcaleer yet his truck was at her house where Rice's son also was. That situation does not seem at all related to the present case.

I just don't feel like any of this is relevant to what happened in this case. Rice has no history of on the job violence or abuse or even DV charges. His troubles seem personal and limited to intimates. Unfortunately, many first responders, such as these three, have tumultuous personal lives. There is lots of information, studies etc about this easily found on line if people are interested. There are special counseling programs and counselors for first responders and their families. But I don't think analyzing Brian Rice will provide any insight into the Freddie Gray case and I'm certainly not interested in delving any further into this guy's rather sad personal life.

I think it's unfortunate that the media and others are hitting hard on this particular LE Officer based on him having one prior incident and mental health issues. Especially since we don't have any indication at this point that Officer Rice was acting erratically or out of control with Mr. Gray's arrest. So the media seems to have overwhelming empathy for someone like Andreas Lubitz who had mental health issues and clearly murdered people crashing a plane. Yet, no one has anyone information that Rice is a mean out of control officer or was improper in handling Mr. Gray's arrest, so it's really kind of picking on him/mental health and creating drama when it may be a non-issue and not supported by evidence. It seems to me premature and mean-spirited at this point, but a lot of things so far about this case seem premature to me. Jmo/

 

[kimmera]

Hi all, old timer here. I haven't posted in a few years, but I wanted to add to this thread. I am a native Baltimorean so this case is of great interest to me. A couple of things:

I don't know if this info has been posted before, but these officers did what is called a 'Terry stop'. Here is a link explaining what that is, and why FG's 4th amendment rights were not violated: http://http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/terry-stop/ The spokesperson for the police even referred to it this way in a local newscast. The police are allowed to briefly detain and do a limited search on individuals in areas of high crime activity without rising to the level of 'probable cause'. They need only 'reasonable suspicion' which they got when FG took off running as soon as he saw them, particularly as a known, convicted drug dealer in a very crime-ridden area. Whether you personally agree with this or not is a moot point, IMO, since the courts upheld it in 1968. Under the rules of a 'Terry stop' the police can search for and make an arrest for an illegal weapon.

I am repeatedly seeing incredulity that the police said that FG's arrest was without incident when he ended up dead. AFAIK, the term 'arrest' refers to the actual apprehension of the individual, as opposed to what may have happened during the transport, which would be referred to as 'in custody'. When whatever happened to FG happened, he was in custody. His arrest had already taken place, and since we have video and still shots of him standing and moving around on his own, to my eye it would appear to be without incident as well.

As far as Lt. Rice goes, he is not the one that is charged with murder. The manslaughter charge, as far as I know, relates to the (arguably) illegal arrest and subsequent false imprisonment, as well as the denial of medical treatment to FG. While the incident(s) outlined in the Guardian articles are certainly egregious and alarming, there has been no evidence released that he has done anything unprofessional relating to his duties as a police officer. Plus we have no idea what the follow up with the department was. Perhaps he had to medically cleared by a mental health professional and is subject to ongoing counseling as a condition to keep his job. My point is, WE DON'T KNOW. I would think that if this info, however sensational and tabloid worthy, is germane to the FG situation, it will come out at trial and we will learn more then.

I personally feel that all of the officers were overcharged and many of the charges will never go to trial. I do think that Goodson will be found guilty of some sort of negligence, and I also believe that he may be guilty of that, but I also think that it will be a tough row to hoe to prove murder when no one has been able to say exactly what happened to FG. If I were a juror I don't think that I could find someone guilty of a crime that carries a possible 30 year sentence if I wasn't sure of exactly what happened to him. It will be interesting to see the ME report(s) when they finally come out. I have thought about the osteoporosis/lead poisoning angle as well as others have here. If he did have it, then I don't see how the police can be held responsible for his neck being in a weakened state as they had no way to know that. I would think that they would only be required to do what a 'reasonable and prudent' person in their position would do under the law.

I am also reserving judgement until the video showing the 'secret stop' comes out. Do we know for sure that FG was seen during that stop? I had not seen anything other than a shop owner took the video...

At any rate, it is an interesting and sad case all around. I tend to be very pro-LE, so I am trying to be as unbiased as I can be in forming opinions about the case. Not to mention, so very little about the actual facts has been released. JMO, and all that jazz...:twocents:

 

[ohreally]

Wow. Charges dropped. Why cut the throat when dog was subdued?

My understanding is that these two police officers went to a call about a dog that had attacked and bit a woman. Murphy's client had the dog on one of the dog catcher poles. They called animal control to come and get the dog. Animal control was delayed in getting there by over an hour. The dog showed signs of dying so the other office slit its jugular believing he was doing the humane thing. Included in the report is both the medical examiner and a veterinarian said the dog was already dead when the jugular was cut. Murphy's client was the one in control of the dog up until that time, so the dog died under his actions. Yet it Murphy's client that the SA dropped the charges on, and still is proceeding with prosecuting the other.
The report is attached in the joint motion of the six officers.

 

[ohreally]

irrelevant to this case. From looking at the records of the people involved, Rice, Mcaleer, Karyn Marsh Crisafulli Mcaleer, all of them have multiple divorces, paternity suits, custody suits, etc etc. The ex wife/gf has had a variety of last names and recently had her name formally changed back from Mcaleer, her most recent ex who has made all the claims about Rice.

I wouldn't even try to hunt down all the parties involved in their domestic messes. But the bottom line seems to me that the most recent ex, Mcaleer, had charges sustained and final protective orders issued more than once for DV. Karyn just divorced him and had her name formally changed to remove his so it does seem he was not likely a terribly good guy. Since he is the one who made the "threats of violence" allegations against Rice I'm not even sure how believable they are. The documented issue regarding Rice is a claim to hurt himself not someone else. Rice had no DV or protective orders. And his recent run in was because Karyn DID have a protective order against Mcaleer yet his truck was at her house where Rice's son also was. That situation does not seem at all related to the present case.

I just don't feel like any of this is relevant to what happened in this case. Rice has no history of on the job violence or abuse or even DV charges. His troubles seem personal and limited to intimates. Unfortunately, many first responders, such as these three, have tumultuous personal lives. There is lots of information, studies etc about this easily found on line if people are interested. There are special counseling programs and counselors for first responders and their families. But I don't think analyzing Brian Rice will provide any insight into the Freddie Gray case and I'm certainly not interested in delving any further into this guy's rather sad personal life.

Thank you. You state so well what I have been trying to say.

 

[ShadyLady]

Kimmera and Boytwnmon, hope you both continue to follow this case!

 

[Dana]

Hi all, old timer here. I haven't posted in a few years, but I wanted to add to this thread. I am a native Baltimorean so this case is of great interest to me. A couple of things:

I don't know if this info has been posted before, but these officers did what is called a 'Terry stop'. Here is a link explaining what that is, and why FG's 4th amendment rights were not violated: http://http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/terry-stop/ The spokesperson for the police even referred to it this way in a local newscast. The police are allowed to briefly detain and do a limited search on individuals in areas of high crime activity without rising to the level of 'probable cause'. They need only 'reasonable suspicion' which they got when FG took off running as soon as he saw them, particularly as a known, convicted drug dealer in a very crime-ridden area. Whether you personally agree with this or not is a moot point, IMO, since the courts upheld it in 1968. Under the rules of a 'Terry stop' the police can search for and make an arrest for an illegal weapon.

I am repeatedly seeing incredulity that the police said that FG's arrest was without incident when he ended up dead. AFAIK, the term 'arrest' refers to the actual apprehension of the individual, as opposed to what may have happened during the transport, which would be referred to as 'in custody'. When whatever happened to FG happened, he was in custody. His arrest had already taken place, and since we have video and still shots of him standing and moving around on his own, to my eye it would appear to be without incident as well.

As far as Lt. Rice goes, he is not the one that is charged with murder. The manslaughter charge, as far as I know, relates to the (arguably) illegal arrest and subsequent false imprisonment, as well as the denial of medical treatment to FG. While the incident(s) outlined in the Guardian articles are certainly egregious and alarming, there has been no evidence released that he has done anything unprofessional relating to his duties as a police officer. Plus we have no idea what the follow up with the department was. Perhaps he had to medically cleared by a mental health professional and is subject to ongoing counseling as a condition to keep his job. My point is, WE DON'T KNOW. I would think that if this info, however sensational and tabloid worthy, is germane to the FG situation, it will come out at trial and we will learn more then.

I personally feel that all of the officers were overcharged and many of the charges will never go to trial. I do think that Goodson will be found guilty of some sort of negligence, and I also believe that he may be guilty of that, but I also think that it will be a tough row to hoe to prove murder when no one has been able to say exactly what happened to FG. If I were a juror I don't think that I could find someone guilty of a crime that carries a possible 30 year sentence if I wasn't sure of exactly what happened to him. It will be interesting to see the ME report(s) when they finally come out. I have thought about the osteoporosis/lead poisoning angle as well as others have here. If he did have it, then I don't see how the police can be held responsible for his neck being in a weakened state as they had no way to know that. I would think that they would only be required to do what a 'reasonable and prudent' person in their position would do under the law.

I am also reserving judgement until the video showing the 'secret stop' comes out. Do we know for sure that FG was seen during that stop? I had not seen anything other than a shop owner took the video...

At any rate, it is an interesting and sad case all around. I tend to be very pro-LE, so I am trying to be as unbiased as I can be in forming opinions about the case. Not to mention, so very little about the actual facts has been released. JMO, and all that jazz...:twocents:

:goodpost:

 

[SStarr33]

When I was first on a grand jury 20 yrs. ago, the most amazing thing was that almost all the cases were plead out by the time they got to us. The Asst. DA would give a brief summation of the facts (~1 min. each) we'd all say "true bill" in unison. The cases were overwhelmingly drug related with a few burglaries thrown in. There's no room in jail for low-level drug perps like FG, unless there's violence present imo, especially in a cash-strapped place like Baltimore.

Look at how much crime has gone down over the years. Putting these people in jail has been very good for our country.