MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #3 *INDICTMENT*

[dandy]

I am about to blow my stack so I will try hard to not get in trouble here now. But I just saw a report on MSNBC where they discussed the TWENTY NINE shootings in Baltimore this weekend. And the protesters are now BLAMING THE COPS for the violence.

Yes, they are blaming the cops for not being 'proactive.' :no:

I am sorry, but it riles me because that is exactly what they have been protesting against. The locals have complained about being questioned, harassed, profiled, and frisked by cops coming into their neighborhood. They don't want cops to 'act that way' and treat them with disrespect. That all sounds reasonable. But how do cops go into a WAR ZONE, where they are prime targets, and NOT do any of those things?

What is being 'proactive' other than stopping and frisking and questioning suspicious people?

So once again, the cops are in a lose/lose situation. Of course they are backing off in the neighborhoods. They would be stupid not to. They have no support from their higher ups and no support from the community. Yet they are now being blamed for the vicious actions of local gang members. Seems pretty unfair, imo.

ita how about a novel idea about putting the blame on the criminals????? i hope the police commissioner grows a pair to realize what the doj put in place last year isn't working! i wonder how many bike riding police officers are patrolling that area today?

and it's not since/due to fgray - quote from article: "Of course it makes me scared," one resident in West Baltimore, who heard gunshots, told The Sun. "I started praying. I didn't move. ... The drugs have escalated in this block in the last six months. With this new drug element in the block — oh, Lord."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/2...y-weekend-in-baltimore-capping-off-deadliest/

when will we hear about the motions that have been filed????????

 

[mysteriew]

interesting background on the mayor's thought process: bbm

Walker's report follows Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake's failed efforts this year to change the Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights.

Rawlings-Blake asked the General Assembly for legislation that would make it easier to discipline officers. She pressed for a bill that would have created a new felony "misconduct in office" charge for officers, and for another that would have made it easier to discipline officers without them having the right to appeal.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...-walker-bpd-report-20150524-story.html#page=1

Every criminal in tne country has the right to appeals. But she doesn't think officers should have the right to appeal???

When does the mayor come up for election again?

 

[cuffem]

http://blackamericaweb.com/2015/05/...rime-is-off-the-charts-guess-who-is-to-blame/
This is probably the same info.

 

[katydid23]

Every criminal in tne country has the right to appeals. But she doesn't think officers should have the right to appeal???

When does the mayor come up for election again?

UNBELIEVABLE. Do they seriously think anyone will want the job once they make such grievous changes?

 

[mysteriew]

I am about to blow my stack so I will try hard to not get in trouble here now. But I just saw a report on MSNBC where they discussed the TWENTY NINE shootings in Baltimore this weekend. And the protesters are now BLAMING THE COPS for the violence.

Yes, they are blaming the cops for not being 'proactive.' :no:

I am sorry, but it riles me because that is exactly what they have been protesting against. The locals have complained about being questioned, harassed, profiled, and frisked by cops coming into their neighborhood. They don't want cops to 'act that way' and treat them with disrespect. That all sounds reasonable. But how do cops go into a WAR ZONE, where they are prime targets, and NOT do any of those things?

What is being 'proactive' other than stopping and frisking and questioning suspicious people?

So once again, the cops are in a lose/lose situation. Of course they are backing off in the neighborhoods. They would be stupid not to. They have no support from their higher ups and no support from the community. Yet they are now being blamed for the vicious actions of local gang members. Seems pretty unfair, imo.

I have been fuming all day. Things I heard throughout the riots keep coming to mind.

I heard:

They are killing our young men. Well they aren't killing anyone now.

We are afraid to call LE, we are more afraid of them. So who is calling?

Just let us alone and let us police our own. How is that working out for ya?

And people still don't seem to get it! Yeah they were probably rough. Sometimes they have to be.

Yeah they monitored what was happening. Yeah a certain element of the neighborhood probably did feel picked on. That's what happens when you participate in illegal activities.

But this is exactly what they were fighting against! And I think by now that someone should have noticed that their tactics must have been effective. Because when they stopped them the murder rate jumped.

If they want LE back in their neighborhoods, they are going to have to invite them back.

Tell me this. Is Sharpton and the other "leaders" still around? Cause it looks to me like this neighborhood sure could use some leadership.

 

[ShadyLady]

I am about to blow my stack so I will try hard to not get in trouble here now. But I just saw a report on MSNBC where they discussed the TWENTY NINE shootings in Baltimore this weekend. And the protesters are now BLAMING THE COPS for the violence.

Yes, they are blaming the cops for not being 'proactive.' :no:

I am sorry, but it riles me because that is exactly what they have been protesting against. The locals have complained about being questioned, harassed, profiled, and frisked by cops coming into their neighborhood. They don't want cops to 'act that way' and treat them with disrespect. That all sounds reasonable. But how do cops go into a WAR ZONE, where they are prime targets, and NOT do any of those things?

What is being 'proactive' other than stopping and frisking and questioning suspicious people?

So once again, the cops are in a lose/lose situation. Of course they are backing off in the neighborhoods. They would be stupid not to. They have no support from their higher ups and no support from the community. Yet they are now being blamed for the vicious actions of local gang members. Seems pretty unfair, imo.

Some people have no foresight....or don't care. The criminals are happy today, imo.

 

[mysteriew]

I heard some head on CNN talking today. About how LE took an oath to protect the neighborhood. Well they were asked to leave. So don't blame them when crime exploded.

 

[Nana]

I heard some head on CNN talking today. About how LE took an oath to protect the neighborhood. Well they were asked to leave. So don't blame them when crime exploded.

ITA, maybe they could run around with those cell phones and record the gangs and drug dealers or maybe the shooters then hand it over to the LE.
They were so afraid of the cops but it didn't stop the cameras in their face.

 

[katydid23]

http://blackamericaweb.com/2015/05/...rime-is-off-the-charts-guess-who-is-to-blame/
This is probably the same info.

This is unreal. So it is always the cops fault. First they are told " Stay away from our young men, you are the biggest danger to them" but now, as the crime rate spikes, they are blamed for NOT being 'proactive.' And proactive behavior is what the people were protesting against. They did not want cops to stop and question suspicious people or frisk them etc. Yet now they are blamed for not 'preventing' gang killings. You cannot do so without all of the above.

I like this quote from above link:


"Residents tell reporters they see officers driving right past street fights and disturbances."


SERIOUSLY? After all these months of national protests against cops who found themselves in street fights, are any of them going to jump in to one? They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. It is deadly and if they do live, they may still lose their job and get charged with a crime. I would drive on by as well.

And then there is this:

“Officers tell me and their supervisors, any time they pull up to respond to a call, they have 30 to 50 people surrounding them. We have to send in multiple units just to do basic police work, which says we have to work on community engagement.”
Batts has added more officers and presence in the Western District where most of the violence is occurring but so far it hasn’t helped.


So Lemon does mention that when a cop does stop at a disturbance, 30 to 50 agitated locals surround them, waiting for them to make a mistake on film. And this is during a possible gang fight. Why would any sane officer put themselves in that crazy position. They are expected to go into a situation, to try and protect the people fighting, and all of those people and the ones standing by, HATE them and mock them and threaten them. So what good is going to come from that?

 

[Nana]

Let them kill each other, then all the druggies and ****s will be dead leaving the community safe to rebuild

 

[CoolJ]

This is unreal. So it is always the cops fault. First they are told " Stay away from our young men, you are the biggest danger to them" but now, as the crime rate spikes, they are blamed for NOT being 'proactive.' And proactive behavior is what the people were protesting against. They did not want cops to stop and question suspicious people or frisk them etc. Yet now they are blamed for not 'preventing' gang killings. You cannot do so without all of the above.

I like this quote from above link:


"Residents tell reporters they see officers driving right past street fights and disturbances."


SERIOUSLY? After all these months of national protests against cops who found themselves in street fights, are any of them going to jump in to one? They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. It is deadly and if they do live, they may still lose their job and get charged with a crime. I would drive on by as well.

And then there is this:

“Officers tell me and their supervisors, any time they pull up to respond to a call, they have 30 to 50 people surrounding them. We have to send in multiple units just to do basic police work, which says we have to work on community engagement.”
Batts has added more officers and presence in the Western District where most of the violence is occurring but so far it hasn’t helped.


So Lemon does mention that when a cop does stop at a disturbance, 30 to 50 agitated locals surround them, waiting for them to make a mistake on film. And this is during a possible gang fight. Why would any sane officer put themselves in that crazy position. They are expected to go into a situation, to try and protect the people fighting, and all of those people and the ones standing by, HATE them and mock them and threaten them. So what good is going to come from that?

I understand your frustration. But the protests are against police brutality and corruption, not against police being proactive.

 

[katydid23]

Also, I LOVE the title of Don Lemons article.

Baltimore Crime Is Off The Chart, AND GUESS WHO IS TO BLAME?

by Don Lemon

=====================================================================

REALLY????
So there were about 30 shootings this weekend in a small area of Baltimore. And they were primarily gang and drug shootings with a few Domestic Violence and Armed robberies sprinkled in. And GUESS WHO IS TO BLAME? The gang members? Their parents ? Their mentors or teachers? Their drug usage?

No. The Police Force is to blame because they are not going in to the neighborhoods and PREVENTING these killings. But wait, weren't they told that they were not welcome and they were the biggest problem and biggest threat?

 

[CoolJ]

Also, I LOVE the title of Don Lemons article.

Baltimore Crime Is Off The Chart, AND GUESS WHO IS TO BLAME?

by Don Lemon


So there were about 30 shootings this weekend in a small area of Baltimore. And they were primarily gang and drug shootings with a few Domestic Violence and Armed robberies sprinkled in. And GUESS WHO IS TO BLAME? The gang members? Their parents ? Their mentors or teachers? Their drug usage?

No. The Police Force is to blame because they are not going in to the neighborhoods and PREVENTING these killings. But wait, weren't they told that they were not welcome and they were the biggest problem and biggest threat?

Everybody is asking the wrong questions and looking to blame the wrong people. The question that should be being asked is p, why in the name of goodness is that city comparable to a war zone? Do the police feel that they have to walk the line just to survive?

 

[katydid23]

I understand your frustration. But the protests are against police brutality and corruption, not against police being proactive.

I disagree. These protests were absolutely against cops being proactive. The major activist groups made written DEMANDS in Ferguson, and other cities subsequently, about just that. They wanted the cops to stop questioning/detaining/harassing locals and they wanted them to stop frisking and searching randomly. They wanted them to stop 'profiling' young black males and to stop pulling them over for traffic infractions. ANY LE will tell you that those are the proactive steps needed to get a heads up on the violence. By stopping an unregistered vehicle, you get to speak to the occupants, and you smell the pot, and you search the car and find the weapons. Otherwise you are just answering 911 calls of shots fired.

How is a cop supposed to go into a very violent area, full of gang members who want to harm them, without proactively stopping them, searching them and questioning them first. A cop cannot walk up to several young gang members and talk to them close up, without finding if they are armed or not. That is suicidal on their part.

EspeciaLLY NOW, with 30 to 50 people surrounding them in an agitated fashion. How can they possibly be proactive?

 

[MissSunshine]

Maybe someone could start a thread on the violence in Baltimore. There are some things I would like to share but I don't think they are appropriate for this thread and it will probably get deleted for not being in topic.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe someone could start a thread on the violence in Baltimore. There are some things I would like to share but I don't think they are appropriate for this thread and it will probably get deleted for not being in topic.

I would but I think they would TOS me.

 

[mysteriew]

Everybody is asking the wrong questions and looking to blame the wrong people. The question that should be being asked is p, why in the name of goodness is that city comparable to a war zone? Do the police feel that they have to walk the line just to survive?

Do police feel that they have to walk the line to survive? Basically, yes. If they make an arrest they are accused of picking on <modsnip> minorities. If they don't make arrests they can't stop the apparent violence.

Under normal circumstances they will offer the same amount of exertions that is asked of them. If they arrest someone and he accepts it no problem. But if he runs, they will have to run after him/her and take him down. And they have to hold him until he is secured. During the run, during the take down and while securing him there is a chance that either the suspect or the LE could be injured.

If they fight an officer will usually try to exert more force than the suspect. Sounds cruel, but actually during the fight there is a risk of injuries and the sooner the fight is over the sooner the risk is over.

 

[CoolJ]

I disagree. These protests were absolutely against cops being proactive. The major activist groups made written DEMANDS in Ferguson, and other cities subsequently, about just that. They wanted the cops to stop questioning/detaining/harassing locals and they wanted them to stop frisking and searching randomly. They wanted them to stop 'profiling' young black males and to stop pulling them over for traffic infractions. ANY LE will tell you that those are the proactive steps needed to get a heads up on the violence. By stopping an unregistered vehicle, you get to speak to the occupants, and you smell the pot, and you search the car and find the weapons. Otherwise you are just answering 911 calls of shots fired.

How is a cop supposed to go into a very violent area, full of gang members who want to harm them, without proactively stopping them, searching them and questioning them first. A cop cannot walk up to several young gang members and talk to them close up, without finding if they are armed or not. That is suicidal on their part.

EspeciaLLY NOW, with 30 to 50 people surrounding them in an agitated fashion. How can they possibly be proactive?

I just think you are missing or ignoring the complaints of police brutality and corruption. Yes there may be some activist groups asking to stop the "proactiveness"' but it seems to me the people of Baltimore are more concerned about what they believe to be a culture of corruption and brutality. There is a problem in B'more. There is a problem with gangs and drugs and violence and there is a problem with police corruption and brutality. Both need to be addressed.

 

[katydid23]

I just think you are missing or ignoring the complaints of police brutality and corruption. Yes there may be some activist groups asking to stop the "proactiveness"' but it seems to me the people of Baltimore are more concerned about what they believe to be a culture of corruption and brutality. There is a problem in B'more. There is a problem with gangs and drugs and violence and there is a problem with police corruption and brutality. Both need to be addressed.

Right. But if you address the police problems by marching and screaming ' EFF DA POLICE' and " We Don't need no racist Police' and you have 30 agitators surround individual cops when they do try and investigate a disturbance--then what? How are the police supposed to do their jobs effectively? Why not protest the individual cops that have been abusive instead of berating and insulting ALL of the force?

When the cops see a suspicious car in a strip mall lot at 3 am, NO WAY are they going to go investigate it. Why would they? It is all bad for them if they do so. Dangerous physically, and if they do win in an altercation they have to run the public gauntlent.


In Vonderrit Meyers case you had a gang member wearing an ankle bracelet, out on bail for illegal weapons and resisting arrest, who ran from a cop, then turned and fired on him, before he was shot. And even that case was touch and go for the officer. The community was outraged at the shooting and said the cops planted the gun and the cop shot him in the back etc etc. But then when the hearing happened, NO EVIDENCE OF ANY OF THAT brought forward by all of those that shouted about it.

Why would a cop want to be in that position? A totally justified shooting, where one almost loses their own life or limb, only to be dragged through the mud publicly, and threatened with murder charges and receiving death threats.

 

[Minette]

I just think you are missing or ignoring the complaints of police brutality and corruption. Yes there may be some activist groups asking to stop the "proactiveness"' but it seems to me the people of Baltimore are more concerned about what they believe to be a culture of corruption and brutality. There is a problem in B'more. There is a problem with gangs and drugs and violence and there is a problem with police corruption and brutality. Both need to be addressed.

Hi, CoolJ, I think you are right, there are two problems that are interconnected and both need to be addressed. However, there is an inherent conflict in that the same people considered to blame for one side of the problem are the ones responsible for policing the other side of the problem. The causes of drugs and gangs and violence may very well have to do with institutional racism, poverty and despair but by the time those problems manifest as such it is too late for a solution other than with the tools law enforcement has been given by society: investigation of crimes and arrest of suspected criminals. LE is not responsible for determining ultimate guilt or innocence of a given crime, only that probable cause exists for an arrest. Society expects to be protected against crime and criminals, therefore LE must question, detain, arrest and transport suspects. Those suspects have rights granted by our Constitution & BoR, but those rights do not include violently attacking LE in the pursuit of their duties. Possibly those suspects have been driven to comment crimes by societal forces (that's another debate!) but it is neither the responsibility nor the right of LE to make those determinations once an alleged crime has been committed--that is the function of our courts, our lawmakers, and ultimately we as citizens and voters who have the final authority. In expecting LE to make those decisions--e.g. that an individual has had a really hard life due to circumstances beyond his or her control and that even though they have perhaps resisted arrest, tried to flee or attacked or threatened an officer or others, they should not be apprehended or restrained despite what the laws dictate--is not only to abrogate our own responsibility but to create an environment in which corruption is not only possible, but inevitable.

Police corruption is bad. Society cannot function without law enforcement, or at least it cannot function in a civilized fashion. And that is one thing that troubles me about the Freddie Gray case--at least two of the officers had charges based on an alleged unlawful arrest asserting that the knife in his possession was actually legal. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that there is enough ambiguity between the city and state laws that that should have been a question for the courts to decide. If LE is expected to have the knowledge in the heat of the moment to make rulings in such questions/interpretations of law then reticence to make arrests, question suspects, or perform searches is perhaps the best of potential outcomes.

In my opinion, of course.