CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[Mrs G Norris]

Right. In fact, he sounds *very* taken aback that Koenig looked for Asia, found her, and spoke to her.

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He certainly didn't sound excited, if that was me I'd be adding in a whole lot of details .. we talked here, I said this, she said that, she wore this, she was carrying x etc ... he sounds almost worried. There has got to be a good reason why she wasn't called, most likely reason is the the prosecutor would have torn her testimony UP and defense + Adnan knew it.

Worth pointing out that Adnan has maintained his innocence with his family, so there is plenty of motivation for him to continue to lie, but I do think there were a few moments in the podcast where he just seemed stressed to be going over things again. My impression of him was of someone who was continuing the lie, but also wearing of it. It's no wonder one of his complaints about his lawyer now is that she didn't ask for a plea deal, perhaps he would be free by now if he had.

 

[Gardenlady]

He certainly didn't sound excited, if that was me I'd be adding in a whole lot of details .. we talked here, I said this, she said that, she wore this, she was carrying x etc ... he sounds almost worried.

Exactly, like. "Oh crap, I didn't think she'd actually find her and talk to her!"

Odd coincidence, I was just re-listening to the episodes this morning and noted that reaction again.


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[Mrs G Norris]

Exactly, like. "Oh crap, I didn't think she'd actually find her and talk to her!"

Odd coincidence, I was just re-listening to the episodes this morning and noted that reaction again.

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Oh which one was it in, I was about to go find it myself!

 

[Gardenlady]

Oh which one was it in, I was about to go find it myself!

It was episode one or two - very early on. I'm back up to four already! I'm not obsessive at all right? :crazy:


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[arizona]

Fanciful? Mmmmkay. I suppose Gutierrez spoke with you from the grave and told you her reasons, that's why you're so sure. If not then you cannot claim to know the reason and you cannot claim it is fact that she did not go further with Asia due solely to ineffective assistance.

Fact is, you don't know what her reason was. And she isn't here to tell you. It's fanciful to think you have a direct line to the dead to make that claim.





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Fanciful thinking is another way of saying, "coming up with theories that are based on no concrete facts."

I've dug quite deeply into this case and know the facts inside and out. I've read the trial transcripts. I'm extremely familiar with the facts. There is zero evidence in the record that Gutierrez put any thought into contacting McClain. You and others can get around this problem by challenging McClain's credibility if you want, as you've done. But doing so STILL does not change the fact that Gutierrez failed to contact her, and she should have as a matter of constitutional law.

(By the way, challenging McClain's credibility would be a laughable failure if the state were to try. But there's no need to fight that battle here on this forum. She should have been contacted. She wasn't. It's that simple.)

 

[arizona]

There has got to be a good reason why she wasn't called

There isn't. The issue isn't whether she was called to the stand, by the way. I see repeated confusion on this point. The issue is whether Gutierrez bothered to even contact her to verify her story and investigate any necessary factual issues.

most likely reason is the the prosecutor would have torn her testimony UP and defense + Adnan knew it.

This is literally a completely made up theory. It is not what Urick said under oath during the first post-conviction hearing.

 

[arizona]

But enough of the lawyer talk. Since some of you are convinced of guilt, can you tell me where Jay Wilds first spotted the victim's body? I'll give you a hint: he claims it was when Syed popped his car trunk open and showed the body to him. So, my question is where did the trunk pop occur?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

But enough of the lawyer talk. Since some of you are convinced of guilt, can you tell me where Jay Wilds first spotted the victim's body? I'll give you a hint: he claims it was when Syed popped his car trunk open and showed the body to him. So, my question is where did the trunk pop occur?

Which version? It's no secret that Jay's story has changed, he's still a whole lot more credible than Adnan.

 

[Gardenlady]

:floorlaugh:




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[jennapuppy]

Exactly, like. "Oh crap, I didn't think she'd actually find her and talk to her!"

Odd coincidence, I was just re-listening to the episodes this morning and noted that reaction again.


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I noted the same thing. Overall, he seemed hesitant and guarded and not exactly eager to rehash specifics with Koenig. I didn't get the sense that he was eager for the opportunity to reopen the case - just didn't get a "I've been wrongly convicted" vibe from him at all. MOO

 

[arizona]

Which version?

Correct. There are 4 versions, and zero explanations from you or the state as to why there are 4 versions.

 

[arizona]

While you're at it, can you fill me in on what time of day or night the supposed burial of the body took place?

Can you also tell me how it's possible that Jay Wilds heard Adnan Syed speaking in Arabic on his cellphone on the day of the murder, when Syed doesn't speak Arabic or any other language other than English? Maybe Jay has a language deficiency in addition to a memory deficit.

Or of course Jay could have committed the murder and dumped the blame on Adnan.

 

[circe221]

Any news on Deirdre Enright's look at the case?
She came across as a snake oil salesman to me, and her entire conversation with Koenig sounded completely scripted.
I'm betting nothing comes of her involvement.

 

[circe221]

re: Asia McClain not being contacted

Is it possible that Adnan asked Gutierrez not to contact her? Or gave Gutierrez information off the record that directly related to her not contacting her?
I agree that there is a reason why she was not contacted, and I found Adnan's reaction to her mention odd to say the least.
Listening to that episode and then reading her letters online, I found her to be more of an obsessed teenage girl. It is possible that once she heard what was going on she wrote the letters and embellished the details in an effort to get closer to her crush and to put herself in the middle of the "drama".

But doing so STILL does not change the fact that Gutierrez failed to contact her, and she should have as a matter of constitutional law.

I am admittedly not very familiar with constitutional law. What part of that law would require Gutierrez to contact Asia? Is there some statute or law that states a defense attorney must contact anyone related to a case?

 

[circe221]

Can you also tell me how it's possible that Jay Wilds heard Adnan Syed speaking in Arabic on his cellphone on the day of the murder, when Syed doesn't speak Arabic or any other language other than English? Maybe Jay has a language deficiency in addition to a memory deficit.

Well, Adnan's parents/family are the ones who stated he does not speak another language, correct? Is it possible that they were not being 100% truthful when saying this? My grandparents were from Italy and spoke Italian exclusively when talking to each other. I probably could not carry on a lengthy in-depth conversation in Italian, but I think I could say a few basic things and respond. Is it possible that what Jay heard was a mixture of another language and English, or some "slang" words in another language that he didn't understand?

 

[arizona]

Any news on Deirdre Enright's look at the case?
She came across as a snake oil salesman to me, and her entire conversation with Koenig sounded completely scripted.
I'm betting nothing comes of her involvement.

The Innocence Project is preparing to file motions with the courts in the near future. <modsnip>

 

[arizona]

re: Asia McClain not being contacted

Is it possible that Adnan asked Gutierrez not to contact her? Or gave Gutierrez information off the record that directly related to her not contacting her?
I agree that there is a reason why she was not contacted, and I found Adnan's reaction to her mention odd to say the least.
Listening to that episode and then reading her letters online, I found her to be more of an obsessed teenage girl. It is possible that once she heard what was going on she wrote the letters and embellished the details in an effort to get closer to her crush and to put herself in the middle of the "drama".



I am admittedly not very familiar with constitutional law. What part of that law would require Gutierrez to contact Asia? Is there some statute or law that states a defense attorney must contact anyone related to a case?

There is an abundance of case law from appellate courts making it clear that a defense attorney's failure to contact an alibi witness constitutes ineffective assistance of counsel under the 6th Amendment. The "law" you are looking for, to be specific, is the 6th Amendment, as that amendment is interpreted by courts.

An attorney is not required to contact "anyone related to a case." An alibi witness who can potentially fatally pierce the government's timeline of events, however, is a witness the courts state must be contacted if the attorney has even a minimal amount of competence.

As far as the speculation on why Gutierrez did not contact her is concerned for some reason other than incompetence: you must keep in mind that at the same time she was handling Adnan's case, she was in the midst of a mental and financial breakdown in her personal life. She was convicted of defrauding a total of 28 different clients from the same time period as when she had this case, and she had been recently diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. She was disbarred, for conduct occurring at the same time as his case. The argument that she was a brilliant criminal defense lawyer on top of her game during this case is easily disproven.

 

[arizona]

Well, Adnan's parents/family are the ones who stated he does not speak another language, correct? Is it possible that they were not being 100% truthful when saying this? My grandparents were from Italy and spoke Italian exclusively when talking to each other. I probably could not carry on a lengthy in-depth conversation in Italian, but I think I could say a few basic things and respond. Is it possible that what Jay heard was a mixture of another language and English, or some "slang" words in another language that he didn't understand?

There is not a single witness who can testify that he was fluent in some other language. Every witness who knows him can confirm that he spoke only English. Despite the prosecutor's tarring of him at trial as a "Pakistani," he was born in downtown Baltimore and had visited the country of his parents' origin twice, both while as a small child.

Jay Wilds claimed that not only was he speaking in Arabic on the phone, but he further embellished the story by claiming that Adnan told him, "Allah is all knowing" when explaining why he killed Hae Min Lee. There is zero evidence that this was some sort of ooga-booga Allah-hu-Akbar Islamic honor killing. Jay fed the Arabic and Allah lines to the cops, and the cops bought it, thinking they'd unearth evidence later of this Islamic rage. They never did.

 

[arizona]

Well, Adnan's parents/family are the ones who stated he does not speak another language, correct? Is it possible that they were not being 100% truthful when saying this? My grandparents were from Italy and spoke Italian exclusively when talking to each other. I probably could not carry on a lengthy in-depth conversation in Italian, but I think I could say a few basic things and respond. Is it possible that what Jay heard was a mixture of another language and English, or some "slang" words in another language that he didn't understand?

And by the way, in fairness, sure it's possible that he heard a word or two in some other language that Adnan could sputter out, much like you can sputter out "Ciao" and "grazie" or whatever. When you add up the massive volume of other inconsistencies in his story though, including the "Allah is all knowing" line, and the completely impossible manner in which his timeline changes every single time he repeats the story, I concluded long ago that the "speaking Arabic" line was a deliberately planted lie to convince the cops that Adnan, basically, Muslimed Hae Min Lee. That seemed like a good story to Jay, so he went with it.

 

[arizona]

Let me vent about something else while I'm speaking to you about myself as a prosecutor, by the way.

Jay Wilds openly confessed to commiting conspiracy to commit murder. The sentence for conspiracy is identical to that of First Degree Murder. This idiot, Kevin Urick, has to this day failed to explain why he didn't charge Wilds accordingly. All he did was slap an accessory charge on him that resulted in no jail time. Are you freaking kidding me? The guy CONFESSED TO MURDER, by claiming that he had knowledge ahead of time that it was going to be committed, and then engaging in an act in furtherance of the plan to commit it, followed by burial of the body. That's conspiracy, under Maryland statute. Punishable up to and including death. Why was he not charged?

And, more importantly, why were his myriad inconsistencies and outright lies not properly investigated?

I think it's a slim possibility that some serial killer did this act and that Jay Wilds is just some psycho nutjob who likes to make up stories for some reason. But I think it's far more likely that Jay Wilds killed her, and pinned it on Syed. Either way, the man got away scot free for either his perjury, or his homicidal behavior, take your pick.