CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[Harmony 2]

The reported time of death is an assumption based on the phone log.

Jay never said Hae was killed by 2:36pm. LE said it had to be done by that time since that was the only call that matched Jay's timeline that Adnan called him from Best Buy.

The letter that Hae wrote to Adnan tells us that he was more upset about the break up than his peers knew. And the "I will kill" note he wrote on the note he passed with Hae's friend, that was creepy!

I still think Adnan did it. His level of comfort in the jail and the fact that he's never lashed out at Jay is very odd.


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Just thinking outside the box because of an experience my daughter had with an ex-boyfriend when she was 19. They dated a very short time but due to issues with his family of origin (divorce, abandonment, etc.) he threatened suicide when she broke up with him.

I wonder if the "I will kill...." was an unfinished thought where "myself" was left off. In Hae Min's letter she states "Your life is NOT going to end."

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...testhe-1999-prosecution-of-17-year-old-s.html

I know Adnan has never offered this as an explanation but this could be due to shame, guilt, embarrassment or religious views about suicide ideation or threats.

 

[circe221]

While I understand the basis for the appeal, I do think he did it.
I can't imagine what Hae's family will go through having to re-live this all yet again, first with Serial and now the appeal.
My heart breaks for them.

 

[circe221]

Just thinking outside the box because of an experience my daughter had with an ex-boyfriend when she was 19. They dated a very short time but due to issues with his family of origin (divorce, abandonment, etc.) he threatened suicide when she broke up with him.

I wonder if the "I will kill...." was an unfinished thought where "myself" was left off. In Hae Min's letter she states "Your life is NOT going to end."

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...testhe-1999-prosecution-of-17-year-old-s.html

I know Adnan has never offered this as an explanation but this could be due to shame, guilt, embarrassment or religious views about suicide ideation or threats.

Reading Hae's letter really seals the deal for me that Adnan did it.
It sounds like he was not accepting the break-up, and was possibly harassing her over it.
The reference to 7:45 AM is interesting - what occurred at that time? Why did she mention it in the letter?
It sounds like she was cutting him off and letting him know that there was no chance of reconciliation between them.
I would think this could point to motive - he could not accept the break-up and was hostile towards her.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

The reported time of death is an assumption based on the phone log.

Jay never said Hae was killed by 2:36pm. LE said it had to be done by that time since that was the only call that matched Jay's timeline that Adnan called him from Best Buy.

The letter that Hae wrote to Adnan tells us that he was more upset about the break up than his peers knew. And the "I will kill" note he wrote on the note he passed with Hae's friend, that was creepy!

I still think Adnan did it. His level of comfort in prison and the fact that he's never lashed out at Jay is very odd.


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The letter Hae wrote was back in November, and then they got back together. They broke up again in mid to late December, but were still talking and exchanged Christmas gifts. He had at least 2 new girls he was talking to, Nisha and one more whose name I don't recall.

I feel like the letter was typical teen drama, and that if what she said was truly a problem, others would have seen it. Also, 6-8 weeks is a long time to teenagers, and even if Adnan was feeling upset about the break up in Nov it doesn't lead me to think he would kill her in January.

 

[Concerned Mama]

While I understand the basis for the appeal, I do think he did it.
I can't imagine what Hae's family will go through having to re-live this all yet again, first with Serial and now the appeal.
My heart breaks for them.

Good post -- I was thinking along the same lines, but you said it concisely.

 

[circe221]

The letter Hae wrote was back in November, and then they got back together. They broke up again in mid to late December, but were still talking and exchanged Christmas gifts. He had at least 2 new girls he was talking to, Nisha and one more whose name I don't recall.

I feel like the letter was typical teen drama, and that if what she said was truly a problem, others would have seen it. Also, 6-8 weeks is a long time to teenagers, and even if Adnan was feeling upset about the break up in Nov it doesn't lead me to think he would kill her in January.

I don't know...
They may have gotten back together because he did threaten to hurt himself, or he promised to change, or she felt bad. We will never know. But what we do know is that she broke up with him again, so whatever happened, it didn't last much longer.
And as for "others would have seen it" - I have known a few people who have been in abusive or controlling relationships and no one outside the relationship knew what was going on until it was over.
Same thing with him talking to other girls. That means nothing as far as his feelings towards Hae.
He could have been trying to move on, but just couldn't let go of her.

 

[leilarose68]

I think he's guilty. I remember two moments in the podcast where it really sunk it: the part where he kind of ranted 'why do you think i'm a good person? why are you interested in this case?" and 'I kind of deserve this' where he then recovered by saying "I shouldn't have lent my car out...' etc etc.

IDK i get the sense throughout the whole thing that Adnan has accepted the fact that he's gotten what he's deserved + while it would be nice to get out, he's made a life for himself in prison + it's just. I've read that Adnan's brother says that, regarding the Serial thjing, Adnan 'just wants it to be over' meaning the coverage of the case.

Jay strikes me as your typical truth-shifting drug dealer, but a weird chill one. I have a hard time believing he would have killed Hae ... he just seems like he wouldn't have cared enough to initiate that kind of violence. there is something tense about adnan where i believe he would have gotten caught up in his own arrogance / repressed feelings

 

[Jessen]

I think it's been mentioned in this thread but when he was stumped about how SK and Jane timed the trip from school to best buy and concluded something could be done in that time frame bothered me. Also, I was bothered by how hesitant he was to have the Innocence Project ask for dna testing. I don't understand many of his reactions.

 

[jellybeanz]

I think it's been mentioned in this thread but when he was stumped about how SK and Jane timed the trip from school to best buy and concluded something could be done in that time frame bothered me. Also, I was bothered by how hesitant he was to have the Innocence Project ask for dna testing. I don't understand many of his reactions.

BBM

He was completely oblivious there was any DNA evidence as far as he knew. How would you react to that news?

The only thing that gnaws at me in Adnan's case is that in the official records he pleaded guilty to kidnapping Hae.
I can only assume he did so as part of an Alford plea along with all other charges, but the other charges weren't updated to reflect this. - Suggesting his lawyer never followed through with his plea deal which his Defence team are now pursuing as misconduct on the part of his original Defence team.

I dont think he is guilty of the crime.

Jay has told too many lies, and as star witness that is a huge problem for me.


https://soundcloud.com/xinobi/agnes-obel-fuel-to-fire-xinobi

 

[MzOpinion8d]

The only thing that gnaws at me in Adnan's case is that in the official records he pleaded guilty to kidnapping Hae.
I can only assume he did so as part of an Alford plea along with all other charges, but the other charges weren't updated to reflect this. - Suggesting his lawyer never followed through with his plea deal which his Defence team are now pursuing as misconduct on the part of his original Defence team.


https://soundcloud.com/xinobi/agnes-obel-fuel-to-fire-xinobi

What are you talking about? I've never heard anything about him pleading guilty to anything.

 

[jellybeanz]

What are you talking about? I've never heard anything about him pleading guilty to anything.

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiry-index.jsp

Search his name at the above link. I hope its an error, but he is down as pleading guilty to kidnapping.

Part of his new current defence misconduct case is because Christina Gutierrez didnt ask for a plea deal from the State.

So, erm, thats what I'm talkiing about.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiry-index.jsp

Search his name at the above link. I hope its an error, but he is down as pleading guilty to kidnapping.

Part of his new current defence misconduct case is because Christina Gutierrez didnt ask for a plea deal from the State.

So, erm, thats what I'm talkiing about.

Thank you! How the HECK have I never seen this info before??

ETA Further research shows this was a clerical error when case info was computerized, supposedly verified by the appeal records. I can't link the place I got the info tho!

 

[Concerned Mama]

Yes, it has been reported previously that Adnan wanted to make a plea deal, but his lawyer either did not agree or simply did not go through with it (I can't remember right now). I'd have to go back a couple of months, at least, to find this info, but am too tired to look tonight. I'll try to look tomorrow, but I'm certain jellybeanz is correct.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Yes, it has been reported previously that Adnan wanted to make a plea deal, but his lawyer either did not agree or simply did not go through with it (I can't remember right now). I'd have to go back a couple of months, at least, to find this info, but am too tired to look tonight. I'll try to look tomorrow, but I'm certain jellybeanz is correct.

In his appeal he attempted to show ineffective assistance of counsel by saying his attorney never sought a plea deal for him. Which she didn't. And which he apparently wouldn't have accepted, as he maintained innocence all along.

I've been doing some more searching and he definitely did not plead guilty to anything, and had no plea deal of any kind.

Howwver, it is true that the Maryland records do say he did plead guilty to kidnapping. I believe Jellybeanz and the info is there, but it is incorrect.

 

[jellybeanz]

Thank you! How the HECK have I never seen this info before??

ETA Further research shows this was a clerical error when case info was computerized, supposedly verified by the appeal records. I can't link the place I got the info tho!

Thank you for bolded part. Thats my last niggling doubt gone now.

 

[Concerned Mama]

In his appeal he attempted to show ineffective assistance of counsel by saying his attorney never sought a plea deal for him. Which she didn't. And which he apparently wouldn't have accepted, as he maintained innocence all along.

I've been doing some more searching and he definitely did not plead guilty to anything, and had no plea deal of any kind.

Howwver, it is true that the Maryland records do say he did plead guilty to kidnapping. I believe Jellybeanz and the info is there, but it is incorrect.

I looked back and no, I can't find anything about pleading guilty to kidnapping. What I did find all had to do with Adnan basing his appeals on Gutierrez not negotiating a plea deal for him, as he says (after the fact) that he wanted.

From PBS NewsHour, January 15:

On Adnan’s application for leave of appeal, filed in January, 2014:
"The application asks the court to consider whether Cristina Gutierrez, Syed’s lawyer in the original 2000 trial, provided him with ineffective assistance. Syed suggests that Gutierrez erred in not following his request that she seek a guilty plea offer from the state."

From the Baltimore Sun, November, 2014:

"Syed's attorney for the appeal, C. Justin Brown, also questions whether Gutierrez failed Syed by not following up on his request to inquire if prosecutors were offering a plea deal.
Syed believed he was entitled to a plea offer because other jail detainees had asked him repeatedly “what his offer was,” as if it were an option all defendants could consider."

 

[TTF14]

I'm currently on episode 9 of this podcast, and I can't remember from the first episode.....what does Adnan give as a reason for giving Jay his phone that day?

Also, regarding the call that was made to his friend (I forget her name) when the phone was supposedly not in his possession, even if there was no answering machine, it still could have been a butt dial. It was a house phone. Someone in that girl's house (mom, dad, sibling) could have answered the phone and just stayed on the line for two minutes trying to figure out who was on the other end. Many times when I've received a butt dial I've remained on the line, listening.

I have not finished up, as I said, but at this point I do not believe Adnan is guilty. Honestly the only thing that makes me think he MIGHT be guilty is the fact he didn't try go contact Hae from his brand new phone after she disappeared. It is odd that he wasn't trying to call her to see where she was. Other friends were.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I'm currently on episode 9 of this podcast, and I can't remember from the first episode.....what does Adnan give as a reason for giving Jay his phone that day?

Also, regarding the call that was made to his friend (I forget her name) when the phone was supposedly not in his possession, even if there was no answering machine, it still could have been a butt dial. It was a house phone. Someone in that girl's house (mom, dad, sibling) could have answered the phone and just stayed on the line for two minutes trying to figure out who was on the other end. Many times when I've received a butt dial I've remained on the line, listening.

I have not finished up, as I said, but at this point I do not believe Adnan is guilty. Honestly the only thing that makes me think he MIGHT be guilty is the fact he didn't try go contact Hae from his brand new phone after she disappeared. It is odd that he wasn't trying to call her to see where she was. Other friends were.

Adnan left the phone in the car because he wasn't allowed to have it in school. So he didn't specifically offer the phone to Jay.

The Nisha call - in a later episode they verify that calls were billed from "send to end" then, so the timer would have started when the call was sent, and would have remained in billing mode even if the phone just rang and rang for the full two minutes. Her number was programmed on the speed dial so a butt dial is definitely a reasonable explanation.

The records indicate he never paged her from his cell phone, but he could have tried from his house phone. He says he doesn't remember trying to page her, but since others were, he was getting info from them. Her new boyfriend, Don, also never tried paging her, IIRC.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I will try to help with info if you have any further questions. I'm really fascinated by the legal process in this case, because it's shocking how terribly this was handled by prosecution and defense alike.

 

[TTF14]

Adnan left the phone in the car because he wasn't allowed to have it in school. So he didn't specifically offer the phone to Jay.

The Nisha call - in a later episode they verify that calls were billed from "send to end" then, so the timer would have started when the call was sent, and would have remained in billing mode even if the phone just rang and rang for the full two minutes. Her number was programmed on the speed dial so a butt dial is definitely a reasonable explanation.

The records indicate he never paged her from his cell phone, but he could have tried from his house phone. He says he doesn't remember trying to page her, but since others were, he was getting info from them. Her new boyfriend, Don, also never tried paging her, IIRC.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I will try to help with info if you have any further questions. I'm really fascinated by the legal process in this case, because it's shocking how terribly this was handled by prosecution and defense alike.

Thanks for your reply. I finished it up last night. So, I did hear the theory about the Nisha call and the fact that Don also never tried to contact her. (Weird!)

I think Adnan is innocent. The only other person who makes sense as a suspect is, of course, the lying liar who lies - Jay. His lies just make no sense. Jay had, what, 4 weeks (before body was found) to come up with his story? 4 weeks wasn't quite enough time, though, since he couldn't keep his story straight. No clue what motive might have been, though.

At the very least, there was not enough evidence to convict Adnan. Major reasonable doubt.

Oh, and his lawyer was sooooo annnooyyyiinnnggg (in my best sing songy voice).

 

[TTF14]

One thing I can't remember is at what point Jay came into the picture for LE? How did they come to first contact him, and at what point did he point the finger at Adnan?