CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[quesarita]

Jenn's wording is odd, but I think it's just because the night at Champ's was when she found out Hae was missing (TV report), but in the interview she already knows Hae is dead, and has been discussing the body with detectives.

In her first interview with police, she tells them that the night at Champ's was Jan. 14:
http://undisclosed-podcast.com/docs/7/Police Notes from Jenn's Interview - 2-26-99.pdf

and that a week later, Nicole told her Hae had been strangled.

Compare with her recorded interview, where she says that the night at Champ's was the night of the TV report (Feb. 4) and a week later she had the conversation with Nicole about the body being strangled. That conversation would have been after Hae's body was found. Finding out about Hae being missing from a TV report on Feb. 4 and discussing how she died a week later after her body was found does not imply any prior knowledge on Jenn's part.

If she thought both conversations happened a few weeks earlier and told the cops she was discussing Hae's body on Jan. 14 and around Jan. 28, that information would have been huge. It's what the detective wrote down from her interview on Feb. 26, but she backed off from that in her recorded interview on Feb. 27, and said it happened later, but she couldn't remember when.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Thanks for that. Coincidentally, I've just got to that part in Undisclosed. Do we have records of calls Jay may have made on his own phone that day?

I missed this question before, sorry. Jay didn't have a phone of his own. The majority of calls made that day were by Jay, to Jay's friends.

 

[mrssunshine]

The majority of calls made that day were by Jay, to Jay's friends.

Hey that is simply not true. The phone logs are posted on Serials website.
Adnans cell had 34 calls from 01/13
11 were incoming calls. (And I'm saying 6 incoming to Adnan 5p or later, when he claims to be in full possession of his phone and 5 incoming to Jay 12:45p to 3:15p and 4:27p to 5p)

Outgoing:
13 were to Adnans friends.
9 were to Jays friends.
1 call was to Adnans voicemail.

 

[Tiger09]

Actually. ... it's been proven (and this evidence was enough to get Adnan another appeal) that the call logs are bs. The technology (lol) at the time measured incoming calls, which are inaccurate. But whatever, cell phones. Still don't prove a murder case completely either way.

What about actual medical evidence via the autopsy that there's no way Hae Min Lee was "pretzeled up" a'la Jay's multiple stories? Or that there's no evidence at all that Adnan Sayed was at the crime scene? None. Just a partial thumb print on a map in his ex girlfriend's car that he was still friends with. I highly doubt an admittedly stoned high school senior came up with the idea to get rid of evidence, get a fellow stoner to bury a body in the icy ground, and then drive off all "deuces, you get rid of the shovels, bro!" And trust he won't say anything, despite the fact that he's not your friend, but the cheating boyfriend of your close (beautiful )female friend? Yeah. Ok.

And I find it highly suspect and strange, what have you that the cops fixed in on Pakistani male, but not the older out of town new boyfriend Hae Min Lee had, Don. Don was 19, his father was law enforcement, his mother was a manager at Lens Crafters. The night Hae disappeared, he was working at a Lens Crafters at another location. He got the call in the evening that Hae didn't show up for her 6pm shift at work (further proving there was no wrestling match that day). He was supposed to hang out with her after 10pm that evening. The cops didn't reach him till after/around 1:30am. There was a period of 28 days from the time Hae disappeared till her body was found. Her friends weren't really worried because they'd thought at first she'd left to be with Don, but then to be with her family in CA. Where did the California info come from? A seven hour phone conversation Don had with a friend of Hae's named Debbie. Also, in the police notes is "Don assaulted Debbie". The defense also requested Don's work records. They came, much later, but showed something contradicted what he told the police. He was not shown working the day Hae disappeared.

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[mrssunshine]

No it has not been proven. I am speaking of the cell phone call logs, that are not in dispute and are posted on the Serial website.
For January 13, when Adnan left his brand new 24 hours old cellphone, with his casual friend Jay, just because he was a nice guy. The same day his ex gf is strangled and murdered. Just a regular day.

You might be speaking of a Defense Motion filed in regard to a technicality on cell phone locations being determined by incoming calls.
Which I predict will be thrown out.

And Don has long ago been cleared.

 

[Tiger09]

Has he?

I highly doubt it. I get this is a victim friendly forum, but false convictions are not justice for anyone.

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[MissHaley]

What I find most unusual is the lack of investigation when Hae was missing. We see what should happen in our Missing forums here & either not much was done at the time or what was done is missing from the investigators. It seemed all they did was call all her friends immediately that evening & ask if anyone knew where Hae was. That would be the time to get official statements, that evening, on the last time anyone saw her. If they took notes then, there wouldn't have been so much confusion about when they saw her & what was happening at the time. No one said anything about a wresting match then.It seemed that those friends who were spoken to that evening said she was probably with Don.
It was 6 weeks later or more when they asked the students, and others about Hae's last day.

The lack of getting her pager records in those first 24-48 hours should've been another thing they did at the time. They did get her computer at some point & apparently looked at it because there was a note about 'monitoring Asian chat rooms that Hae frequented', so they saw something in there but, never bothered to do a full computer forensic review? Where are the emails, & logs of the chats? Had they gotten info from those communication devices, we would've known a lot more about Hae.

Apparently, by the time they found Hae's body, the dept. handling the missing investigation still hadn't done an investigation on the computer! And was told by the dept. it was turned over to 'per request we were asked not to do the computer investigation & to turn the computer over to the homicide dept.' Well, that dept. never did a forensic review on it either!
I mean, how can that be? Even a month later, they still could've did it & still called the pager company to get the records! How could not investing those 2 communication devices not have been a priory to either the missing or homicide depts.?

I know times have changed since 1999 & the first thing we do now is check all social media of the missing persons but, they got Adnan's cell records, so they knew what to do then as well. Why wasn't Hae's info important to LE? right off the bat, how they handled the missing investigation shows they gave no respect to Hae & then followed the rest of the mess. Knowing what & whom a victim was doing before & the day of her abduction would've given so much more insight to what happened to her. Now, that info is gone.

JMO but, I'm just stunned how the missing investigation started! Once they got a tip on 2/1, they decided not to investigate what happened to Hae- they just started to investigate Adnan, & never looked back.

 

[mrssunshine]

JMO but, I'm just stunned how the missing investigation started! Once they got a tip on 2/1, they decided not to investigate what happened to Hae- they just started to investigate Adnan, & never looked back.

That is not true either.
The cops got the tip from 2/1 and called Adnan that day (2cnd call) asking him about "the Ride" he asked for from Hae.
02/08 Police searched Hae's computer
02/09 Hae was found by Mr. S
02/12 was the anonymous tip about Adnan being the killer.
02/15 Police met with Yasser (who denied being the anon caller)
02/18 Police interview Mr. S. (found body)
02/25 Polygraph Mr. S
02/26 Police interview Jen

So they clearly kept investigating, it's just that all the evidence pointed to Adnan. You can't fault BPD for that.
Also Hae's family said from the beginning she would never go to California and moreover would never leave her young cousin stuck at school.

 

[Tiger09]

What evidence are you talking about? All of this evidence is circumstantial at best.

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[MissHaley]

right, as your dates show, they did keep investigating, but it was Adnan they investigated. They were starting to build their case against him. and I did say, JMO, that I was stunned at the lack of investigation into Hae's communication devices.

 

[Soulmagent]

Hey that is simply not true. The phone logs are posted on Serials website.
Adnans cell had 34 calls from 01/13
11 were incoming calls. (And I'm saying 6 incoming to Adnan 5p or later, when he claims to be in full possession of his phone and 5 incoming to Jay 12:45p to 3:15p and 4:27p to 5p)

Outgoing:
13 were to Adnans friends.
9 were to Jays friends.
1 call was to Adnans voicemail.

If you could link the call logs for us that would be great. It helps to keep everyone informed and up to date on the topic. It also limits untrue statement being stated as fact. No saying anyone has done that ,but it does accidently happen sometimes.

 

[cujenn81]

If you could link the call logs for us that would be great. It helps to keep everyone informed and up to date on the topic. It also limits untrue statement being stated as fact. No saying anyone has done that ,but it does accidently happen sometimes.

I know this question wasn't directed at me but I found the call log...

http://serialpodcast.org/maps/cell-phone-call-log

The "# + Adnan's cell" listings are incoming calls that were not answered and sent to voicemail.

 

[oreily85]

I noticed that Jays bday is January 12th.. interesting that much is made of Stephanies bday but not his..

 

[cujenn81]

I noticed that Jays bday is January 12th.. interesting that much is made of Stephanies bday but not his..

I thought about that too. I wonder what Stephanie gave Jay for his bday?

 

[greenbean]

Soooooo... Was Adnan born in 1980 or 1981?

There seems to be a fair amount of conflict about this?

I've been following this like mad. The whole case is profoundly disturbing.

 

[jane_tennison]

Trying to ignore any peppering of your imagination by content observed regarding this crime, and in the spirit of advocating for the victim, can you create a profile of the person(s) who could or would commit this type of murder? What analysis of [any] the evidence can yield a particularly useful profile? [Try not to think about the players already named in this case/Serial]

 

[jane_tennison]

Interesting Article:

http://www.laxmagazine.com/high_school/girls/2013-14/news/121814_serial_revisits_murder_of_woodlawn_standout_hae_min_lee

But Donnie Brown, Woodlawn's boys' coach, remembered Jay as "the kind of player who would run through a wall for you."

One of "Serial's" most memorable segments recounts Lee's junior prom, which Koenig pegs as the beginning of her romance with Syed. Sometime that night, Lee posed for a traditional prom picture. She gave Hughes and several teammates wallet-sized copies.

Through every coaching job he has had since, Hughes has kept the photo in his desk.

"Every so often, I'll be moving stuff around and see it and think, 'Wow,'" he said. "She was so much fun."

There's one problem with the picture, though.

Lee isn't smiling.

"I can't really even remember what she looks like without a huge grin on her face," Arrildt said.

 

[greenbean]

Trying to ignore any peppering of your imagination by content observed regarding this crime, and in the spirit of advocating for the victim, can you create a profile of the person(s) who could or would commit this type of murder? What analysis of [any] the evidence can yield a particularly useful profile? [Try not to think about the players already named in this case/Serial]

OK!

- I think the killer was unknown to Hae. I think her unburied body kinda points to that. I think someone known to her would (maybe) have taken more time to conceal the body. I tend to think of serial killers just basically dumping victims and making the least amount of effort to do that. I think, if you're going to kill someone you know intimately, you'd be fairly focused on the body not being found at all. I'm just spitballing here, though. I'm not a criminal analyst nor do I play one here at websleuths.

- I think her body's condition was kind of glossed over. I was pretty shocked when I read/heard/discovered that she was found with both breasts exposed. Seems fairly sexual to me? Her hose were ruined at the knees, too. Whole thing makes me feel ill.

These two things make me think that she was the victim of a sexually motivated killer. I kinda tend to think that if she had been killed by someone known to her (even if sex assault played into that) they would have been more likely to leave her more covered. If she was murdered by Adnan because of anger at his (maybe) unrequited affection he would have been more likely to not leave her so exposed? Because she was his property in his mind? I hope that, kind of, makes sense?

I've got no skin in this game and when I first started listening to the podcast on NPR I really thought he (Adnan) was the most likely culprit. I mean, most of the time it's the boyfriend or the ex, right? She wasn't exactly leading what people refer to as a "high risk lifestyle." Who else would kill this kid? What would their motive be? IMO- rape.

Now though, knowing she was (kind of) just stuck under that tree (essentially) half naked, I think it was a crime of oppourtunity based on her killer wanting to sexually assault her in some way.

What leaves me aghast, and I gotta say this, is how lost Hae gets in all this. I am often left feeling that she's the least represented in all the re-hashing that goes on.

Yes, if Adnan was wrongfully convicted his life was irreparably changed by these circumstances. Some would maybe say his life was ruined? Hope can still exist for him though, he could be exonerated and rebuild a life.

Regardless of what happens Hae is gone and most likely she left this world terrified and in pain.

That's what bothers me the most.

 

[MissHaley]

Trying to ignore any peppering of your imagination by content observed regarding this crime, and in the spirit of advocating for the victim, can you create a profile of the person(s) who could or would commit this type of murder? What analysis of [any] the evidence can yield a particularly useful profile? [Try not to think about the players already named in this case/Serial]

In order to create a profile of the killer, one needs to study the victimology of Hae. When police were contacted when she was missing, interviews of her family, friends, & those that were around her that day, what she was wearing, who she was talking to that day & her behavior leading up to that day- should've been taken. Extensive notes, not one line or no notes at all.That didn't happen. Police should've gotten her pager records & searched her computer. From the little notes we have, police just called 3 people & asked if they knew where she was at. What she was doing that day has been lost now.

Another part is to look at the crime scene & reverse engineer what type of person did the crime. This was also not done, even the forensic tech was told by the prosecutors not to take notes at the scene & there were no notes. Too much is lost now. A good profiler could look at the crime scene photos & ME report & make an assumption but, without an investigation of Hae, a profile couldn't be done with any accuracy, especially for a person to try it without being a profiler VS a person that does profiling for a living. IMO

This is my understanding from reading Jim Clemente & watching criminal minds, LOL!

 

[MissHaley]

OK!

- I think the killer was unknown to Hae. I think her unburied body kinda points to that. I think someone known to her would (maybe) have taken more time to conceal the body. I tend to think of serial killers just basically dumping victims and making the least amount of effort to do that. I think, if you're going to kill someone you know intimately, you'd be fairly focused on the body not being found at all. I'm just spitballing here, though. I'm not a criminal analyst nor do I play one here at websleuths.

- I think her body's condition was kind of glossed over. I was pretty shocked when I read/heard/discovered that she was found with both breasts exposed. Seems fairly sexual to me? Her hose were ruined at the knees, too. Whole thing makes me feel ill.

These two things make me think that she was the victim of a sexually motivated killer. I kinda tend to think that if she had been killed by someone known to her (even if sex assault played into that) they would have been more likely to leave her more covered. If she was murdered by Adnan because of anger at his (maybe) unrequited affection he would have been more likely to not leave her so exposed? Because she was his property in his mind? I hope that, kind of, makes sense?

I've got no skin in this game and when I first started listening to the podcast on NPR I really thought he (Adnan) was the most likely culprit. I mean, most of the time it's the boyfriend or the ex, right? She wasn't exactly leading what people refer to as a "high risk lifestyle." Who else would kill this kid? What would their motive be? IMO- rape.

Now though, knowing she was (kind of) just stuck under that tree (essentially) half naked, I think it was a crime of oppourtunity based on her killer wanting to sexually assault her in some way.

What leaves me aghast, and I gotta say this, is how lost Hae gets in all this. I am often left feeling that she's the least represented in all the re-hashing that goes on.

Yes, if Adnan was wrongfully convicted his life was irreparably changed by these circumstances. Some would maybe say his life was ruined? Hope can still exist for him though, he could be exonerated and rebuild a life.

Regardless of what happens Hae is gone and most likely she left this world terrified and in pain.

That's what bothers me the most.

greenbean, you did a great job! Wow!

I agree, the most surprising part is how Hae is completely lost in the story.

Ok, I will follow with " we can play a criminal profiler on WS". These were my initial thoughts.
The unsub is a white male, 30's-40's with a criminal background history. He was local. They would've seen Hae around the school, her work, or at the wrestling matches. They might've contacted her thru the chat groups she visited. Although was not known to her. It was not premeditated, but a crime of opportunity because there was no weapon used to kill and the head blows are usually a result of a 'blitz' attack, to render the victim unable to attack or escape. Not covering the victim completely does show no relationship to the victim.