CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

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Amperstand said:
Yup. I am into the podcast as well.

General Thoughts:
1. I am super happy that this podcast has so many listeners, because 1) I love podcasts and 2) I love true crime.
2. I kind of wish Koenig focused more on the trials than on the characters. I agree with Seabreeze1: I feel my assumptions of Adnan's guilt waver with each episode, which I think is just good story telling. However, I personally am more concerned with "did he commit this murder beyond reasonable doubt."
2a. I feel like the fact that the detectives are pretty darn sure they got the right person makes me sway in their direction.
2b. I am very sympathetic towards wrongful convictions. I really feel quite strongly that people should not be convicted of crimes unless
there is overwhelming evidence that the accused committed the crime.
3. Why have we heard so little about the physical evidence?
4. I think (but I'm not sure) that homicides in which the victim is strangled to death are more likely to be committed a) by people who are closely tied to the victim (or a serial killer) and b) by people who have not planned the murder in advance.
--These points regarding the method of homicide lead me to simultaneously believe that Adnan did it, and that Jay's story is BS. Which again leaves me in the reasonable doubt category--- if Jay's testimony is true, this was premeditated, but the method of homicide doesn't fit with that story.
....I just wish they had a behavioral psychologist on who researches methods of homicide. I get that patterns of homicide do not necessarily apply to every case. There is individual variation. However, I would like some more macro-level investigation.

Thanks for reading!
&
Click to expand...

I have come to think that Adnan is guilty and that Jay was way more involved than we will ever know. I would love to know why there wasn't testing done on the rope and the bottle found at the scene and I still don't buy the story of how Mr S found the body. I know that the question of why Adnan doesn't show anger at Jay or the verdict throughout the series but it still doesn't sit right with me. If I was innocent I would be screaming from the roof tops. I can't wait to hear how this concludes. I feel for Hai's family as having it all dragged back up again must be torture.
 
Seabreeze1 said:
I have come to think that Adnan is guilty and that Jay was way more involved than we will ever know. I would love to know why there wasn't testing done on the rope and the bottle found at the scene and I still don't buy the story of how Mr S found the body. I know that the question of why Adnan doesn't show anger at Jay or the verdict throughout the series but it still doesn't sit right with me. If I was innocent I would be screaming from the roof tops. I can't wait to hear how this concludes. I feel for Hai's family as having it all dragged back up again must be torture.
Click to expand...

Actually, I feel Adnan's responses are most similar to other people who eventually were released from prison years after being wrongfully convicted. Being in prison and being involved in appeal attempts restrains them from "screaming from the rooftops" or even trying to point a finger at some other suspect, IMO.
 
I love this podcast too! I go back and forth and back and forth on whether I think Adnan is guilty. This is such a little thing really, but the biggest stumbling block in my mind going against him is that he didn't try to reach Hae when she was missing. If I'm remembering correctly, they regularly kept in touch with each other.

Obviously Jay was involved because he had so much information for the police, but I wish I knew how it all happened. Most of the time I lean towards Adnan is guilty, and Jay helped cover it up.
 
I wish there were some sort of video or a (text) transcript of the podcasts. Trying to keep up with the audio makes me feel like a dumbass. I don't know if it's my ADD, OCD, head injury or a combo of all of those.

The several Baltimore Sun article links kind of help in that they have "related stories" links, some of which are to the same case and some are to similar cases (i.e. young person missing on the way to work, people murdered that year, etc). But you have to click on them to be sure, and that kind of sets off the OCD again.
 
Fascinating and so conflicting. I fluctuate between innocent and guilty too. It's particular intriguing because I live about 10 minutes from most of these places and have been to them. (I didn't live here in 99 though.) Looking forward to tomorrow's finale.
 
It appears that the jury did not do their job and vote for an acquittal. The evidence was not there. There was no testing done to determine that Adnan was at the crime scene? LE stood by Jay a drug dealer's statement... And jurors believed him... This may be the first case of that, ever! Appeared to me that during Jay's interrogation LE was "coaching him." Why was Jay so eager to get rid of the clothes he was wearing that day? Jay was the one that took LE to Hae's car.

Was Jen covering up for Jay?
Was Jay jealous of Stephanie (Jay's girlfriend) and Adnan's friendship?
 
Amperstand said:
Yup. I am into the podcast as well.

General Thoughts:
1. I am super happy that this podcast has so many listeners, because 1) I love podcasts and 2) I love true crime.
2. I kind of wish Koenig focused more on the trials than on the characters. I agree with Seabreeze1: I feel my assumptions of Adnan's guilt waver with each episode, which I think is just good story telling. However, I personally am more concerned with "did he commit this murder beyond reasonable doubt."
2a. I feel like the fact that the detectives are pretty darn sure they got the right person makes me sway in their direction.
2b. I am very sympathetic towards wrongful convictions. I really feel quite strongly that people should not be convicted of crimes unless
there is overwhelming evidence that the accused committed the crime.
3. Why have we heard so little about the physical evidence?
4. I think (but I'm not sure) that homicides in which the victim is strangled to death are more likely to be committed a) by people who are closely tied to the victim (or a serial killer) and b) by people who have not planned the murder in advance.
--These points regarding the method of homicide lead me to simultaneously believe that Adnan did it, and that Jay's story is BS. Which again leaves me in the reasonable doubt category--- if Jay's testimony is true, this was premeditated, but the method of homicide doesn't fit with that story.
....I just wish they had a behavioral psychologist on who researches methods of homicide. I get that patterns of homicide do not necessarily apply to every case. There is individual variation. However, I would like some more macro-level investigation.

Thanks for reading!
&
Click to expand...
Good evening, Amperstand,
Number four is a great point. I have wondered throughout the podcast why it was never mentioned that homicides of which involve a victim who has been strangled to death are most likely committed by someone closely associated with the victim.
 
There's definitely not enough evidence to convict Adnan. I mostly blame the police and the DA. They took the easy way out -- letting Jay's lies slide and coaching him -- because Adnan was the obvious suspect and Jay had implicated him. It was just so much easier for them to take the route they did. And Adnan's lawyer was awful. A prime example of how scary the criminal justice system is. The podcast has been really useful for bringing these recurring issues to light. Scary all-around.
 
I've become such a fan of this podcast (binge listened and finished all episodes in 3 days!) I'm surprised it's not a bigger conversation here on WS. If anyone is interested in some supplemental discussion, I came across a podcast called "Slate's Serial Spoiler Series" which you can find on Youtube by searching that name. It just gives some perspective to Serial and further discusses details of the case. It's interesting because they discuss looking at the case as a journalist vs. storyteller vs. a lawyer, which I thought was fascinating.

I also went back and forth with each episode and finally came to the conclusion that I think there is a lot of reasonable doubt. There's just nothing that points absolutely at Adnan for the murder beside Jay's words. SPOILER: I think the uncovering of that other murder just before Hae's murder by the convict was an interesting turn. I also think it came down to Adnan's lawyer being unbelievably ineffective. I'm interested to see if they get anywhere with reopening the case.
 
All I know is if I'm ever falsely accused of a crime, I want Sarah Koenig to investigate my case BEFORE it goes to trial! :D
 
I finally had time to listen to this entire podcast yesterday. One thing that struck me has to do with Hae's plans that day, after school got out. Before she left the campus, we know she was seen getting snacks, and we know she had a conversation with a friend. This was the friend who was going to be working at a wrestling meet for her first time later on and Hae told her not to worry, she would be there to help her. The friend was mad when Hae never showed up. Ok, then late in the podcast, maybe the last episode, we hear from Don, the new boyfriend. He mentions they had been together the night before, the 12th. But he also mentions there was talk that they would see each other on the evening of 13th too. A never-delivered note to him was found in Hae's car, dated that day, saying she was sorry she couldn't wait for him. Hae seemed to have an awful lot planned for that evening. Pick up cousin, work at a wrestling meet, go see Don. What changed for her from the night before, when they had plans to meet on the 13th, till the time she wrote the note saying she was sorry she couldn't wait for him? Also, when did Don learn he was going to have to work at a different store? Did Hae know this? Not that I think Don had anything to do with this, but just among the billions of questions that have come to my mind.
 
khaki said:
I finally had time to listen to this entire podcast yesterday. One thing that struck me has to do with Hae's plans that day, after school got out. Before she left the campus, we know she was seen getting snacks, and we know she had a conversation with a friend. This was the friend who was going to be working at a wrestling meet for her first time later on and Hae told her not to worry, she would be there to help her. The friend was mad when Hae never showed up. Ok, then late in the podcast, maybe the last episode, we hear from Don, the new boyfriend. He mentions they had been together the night before, the 12th. But he also mentions there was talk that they would see each other on the evening of 13th too. A never-delivered note to him was found in Hae's car, dated that day, saying she was sorry she couldn't wait for him. Hae seemed to have an awful lot planned for that evening. Pick up cousin, work at a wrestling meet, go see Don. What changed for her from the night before, when they had plans to meet on the 13th, till the time she wrote the note saying she was sorry she couldn't wait for him? Also, when did Don learn he was going to have to work at a different store? Did Hae know this? Not that I think Don had anything to do with this, but just among the billions of questions that have come to my mind.
Click to expand...
BBM - Thank you for bringing up that note. I had forgotten about it, but I had so many questions about it. It almost doesn't make any sense with Hae's timeline. When was she planning on giving that note to Don? Was it something she had written and then decided not to deliver? Was she going to leave it on his car? Did she know he was going to work at the other store. I know in the grand scheme it probably amounts to nothing, but I'm still curious. Same goes for the "I'm gonna kill" note. Also, probably nothing, but still curious. I was completely not satisfied with the end of the season. I needed more answers! ;)
 
I think Jay was CI. Criminal Informant for the police. He was selling weed to the serial killer or guy who did kill Hae, which explains how he knew where the car was. The police wanted the Muslims out of Baltimore. There was racial tension then. This was before 9/11, but it doesn't mean there wasn't prejudice against Muslims. Don was the older, white boyfriend who's mom was his manager, dad was a cop. So his mom couldn't change his time card?

The cops took the ever changing story of the alleged self proclaimed "criminal element " of a high school. Why not do the stereotypical blame the black guy? Because Jay was helping the police get drug dealers, etc. He may have sold weed to Mr S- further explaining how he knew where the body was. So Jay know so and so killed Hae, but the cops don't want that suspect. They want Adnan. The Muslim kid. So Jay is coached into a testimony and statement. The prosecution even gets him a lawyer. Jay buries a body, yet serves no jail time. Perks of being a CI. Pathetic, isn't it?
 
UESwifey said:
BBM - Thank you for bringing up that note. I had forgotten about it, but I had so many questions about it. It almost doesn't make any sense with Hae's timeline. When was she planning on giving that note to Don? Was it something she had written and then decided not to deliver? Was she going to leave it on his car? Did she know he was going to work at the other store. I know in the grand scheme it probably amounts to nothing, but I'm still curious. Same goes for the "I'm gonna kill" note. Also, probably nothing, but still curious. I was completely not satisfied with the end of the season. I needed more answers! ;)
Click to expand...
Owings Mills and Randallstown are a few miles away from each other. I think she was going to leave it on his car and then head to the wrestling meet afterward. But, she didn't make it to Owings Mills.
 
Rabia Chaudry is posting transcripts from the trial on her blog, splitthemoon.com. Today, opening statements went up.
 
Just an FYI for those who might not have noticed like me at first, these transcripts are from the first trial which ended in mistrial, not the second where adnan was convicted.


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