CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[MzOpinion8d]

Post mortem pics in high profile cases aren't new. Jon Benet Ramsey pics are out there. JFK - what is that film called, that shows him being shot? And poor Jackie, jumping out onto the back of the car to pick up a piece of his brain matter?

The problem with the reddit users having the pics is because it's one in particular who is obsessed with proving Rabia, Susan, and Colin wrong. He literally said to me in a comment on the discussion of the lividity that lividity can't be determined after 4 weeks due to the decomposition process. And is trying to prove she was buried face down, despite the ME report indicating she was in the "grave" on her right side.

There is almost a manic level of hatred happening on there in the main Serial podcast sub. The closer to a decision on the motion to re-open, the crazier it gets.

I mostly believe Bob has good intentions, but his recent fund raising efforts have made me uneasy. I will reserve judgement at this point. He could potentially make a good private investigator, so maybe this is the way to make that happen and hopefully open the door to investigations into other cases.

One thing is certain, and that is there were flaws in the investigation. I can't believe how lame the response to the motion to reopen is. The state is saying the cover sheet from AT&T was from something else, so it shouldn't be considered, even though it's quite clear it's part of the cell records used.

One point made in Bob's last podcast is very true tho - the investigators planted seeds of doubt in people's minds and convoluted many things. More than one person has commented that they assumed Adnan must have been guilty since he was arrested. Most of their friends had no idea Jay was the star witness against him.

It's all such a mess.

 

[watergirl62]

The states' position that the uncertainty of incoming call tower locations technology noted on less robust AT&T subscriber activity reports somehow doesn't apply to the enhanced versions of LE-requested call logs due to erroneous cover sheet matching is ludicrous at best.

Excellent post, Mzopinion8d. Voice of reason. Thank you.

 

[mrssunshine]

The problem with the reddit users having the pics is because it's one in particular who is obsessed with proving Rabia, Susan, and Colin wrong.

There is almost a manic level of hatred happening on there in the main Serial podcast sub. The closer to a decision on the motion to re-open, the crazier it gets.

I don't see how a person who thinks ADNAN is guilty having the pictures vs Rabia, Colin, Susan, and Bob who are out there claiming Adnan is innocent is a bad thing.
No one is putting them out there for all too see, I welcome the opinion of someone who isn't pro Adnan. The more facts and information out there, the better.

Also so have you seen the newly released Nisha interview:https://m.box.com/shared_item/https://app.box.com/s/q1i4ad1s8ax9nmirrexmo0brl4ovjglx

Where Nisha (in her April interview with police) clearly remembered the call from Adnan in which he put Jay on the phone as "a day or 2 after he got his cell phone"
Undisclosed did not release this or mentIon it. It destroys the "butt dial theory" and puts Adnan with his phone at 3:32 on the day of Hae's murder. Jays interview with police about Adnan putting a girl from Silver Springs on the phone was in March. She also says she got out of school at 2:10 and was home by 2:25. Susan S in her blog claimed this call was a break in Adnan's calling pattern and Nisha would not have been home. Did she not see this interview?

That is what I mean I want all the information. Not just the one sided, all the cops lied, everyone dropped the ball, poor innocent Adnan side.

 

[greenbean]

It's morally bankrupt to seek out post-mortem pictures because some internet detective thinks watching marathons of IDdiscovery makes someone a scientist. It does not make someone a scientist. No proper scientist in their right mind is going to weigh in on Reddit. Those pictures are being "interpreted" by layman in tin foil hats.

People need to get a grip.

🐸☕️

 

[cujenn81]

The Nisha document isn't a transcript; they are just Ritz's notes taken from an interview that took place almost 4 months after the phone call in question.

To be honest, I don't trust Nisha's memory. Or Jay's. Or Adnan's. Or Aisha's. Or Asia's.

I don't even trust my own, for that matter. Memories can be, and often are, extremely unreliable. They can be molded, altered, or rearranged by so many factors. Many of my memories are supported by pictures or were built from stories I've heard from friends and family. Have you ever talked about the past w/ a friend and you remember it completely different than they do? Which memory is the accurate and factual one? It could be neither.

I once remembered being with a friend when something significant happened to them, and I wasn't even there. I would have bet my life that I was until she told me differently. I heard the story being told so many times that I believed I was actually there.

I know trials rely on witness testimony everyday, but that doesn't mean they should. A lot of witness testimony may be false, and he/she may not even be aware that it is.

 

[mrssunshine]

You don't have to trust anyone's memory.

Jay gave an interview on 15March that "Adnan put him on the phone with a girl from Silver Springs." (2 months after murder)

2 weeks later, Nisha gave an interview to police on 01April where she said, "Adnan called and put his friend Jay on the phone a day or two after he got his new cell phone. & this was the only time he put Jay on phone with me."

Adnan's cell phone records backed up this call.
The police had no way to know Nisha was going to corroborate what Jay said.

And I didn't call the Nisha interview a "transcript" ---you did that. I called it an interview. Which is quite commonly done even today in many Police departments, where the police take notes and then those notes are typed up.

It's just to illustrate my point, there was no butt dial. Adnan had his cell at 3:32pm on the day of Hae's murder. But the people who are fighting to get Adnan released are only releasing information that is favorable to him. They are not giving the whole truth, which is extremely disingenuous of them.

 

[greenbean]

You don't have to trust anyone's memory.

Jay gave an interview on 15March that "Adnan put him on the phone with a girl from Silver Springs." (2 months after murder)

2 weeks later, Nisha gave an interview to police on 01April where she said, "Adnan called and put his friend Jay on the phone a day or two after he got his new cell phone. & this was the only time he put Jay on phone with me."

Adnan's cell phone records backed up this call.
The police had no way to know Nisha was going to corroborate what Jay said.

And I didn't call the Nisha interview a "transcript" ---you did that. I called it an interview. Which is quite commonly done even today in many Police departments, where the police take notes and then those notes are typed up.

It's just to illustrate my point, there was no butt dial. Adnan had his cell at 3:32pm on the day of Hae's murder. But the people who are fighting to get Adnan released are only releasing information that is favorable to him. They are not giving the whole truth, which is extremely disingenuous of them.

The people fighting to get Adnan released are his friend Rabia and two attorneys she knows. Why in the world would Adnan's dear friend be obligated to present any sort of picture other than one that favors him?! The entire podcast (Undisclosed) is a way to generate money for Adnan's defense.

 

[mrssunshine]

The people fighting to get Adnan released are his friend Rabia and two attorneys she knows. Why in the world would Adnan's dear friend be obligated to present any sort of picture other than one that favors him?! The entire podcast (Undisclosed) is a way to generate money for Adnan's defense.

Because they are doing it under the guise of claiming they want the truth! And they are accusing everyone from witnesses to cops to attorneys of lying, framing, and doing poor police work. They have accused Don of falsifying a time card. People on this very board made remarks about his looks-as if that matters. Hae is the one who had his name all over her diary, so his looks were obviously okay to her. Hae was with him the night before her murder-when Adnan was calling her 3 times late at night to give her his new cell number.
When they (undisclosed, serial dynasty)are deliberately not putting the truth out there in an attempt to raise money to help a convicted murderer of an innocent 17 year old girl, I'm happy to hear from another side to counter their bs and spin.

 

[greenbean]

You don't have to trust anyone's memory.

Jay gave an interview on 15March that "Adnan put him on the phone with a girl from Silver Springs." (2 months after murder)

2 weeks later, Nisha gave an interview to police on 01April where she said, "Adnan called and put his friend Jay on the phone a day or two after he got his new cell phone. & this was the only time he put Jay on phone with me."

Adnan's cell phone records backed up this call.
The police had no way to know Nisha was going to corroborate what Jay said.

And I didn't call the Nisha interview a "transcript" ---you did that. I called it an interview. Which is quite commonly done even today in many Police departments, where the police take notes and then those notes are typed up.

It's just to illustrate my point, there was no butt dial. Adnan had his cell at 3:32pm on the day of Hae's murder. But the people who are fighting to get Adnan released are only releasing information that is favorable to him. They are not giving the whole truth, which is extremely disingenuous of them.

Because they are doing it under the guise of claiming they want the truth! And they are accusing everyone from witnesses to cops to attorneys of lying, framing, and doing poor police work. They have accused Don of falsifying a time card. People on this very board made remarks about his looks-as if that matters. Hae is the one who had his name all over her diary, so his looks were obviously okay to her. Hae was with him the night before her murder-when Adnan was calling her 3 times late at night to give her his new cell number.
When they (undisclosed, serial dynasty)are deliberately not putting the truth out there in an attempt to raise money to help a convicted murderer of an innocent 17 year old girl, I'm happy to hear from another side to counter their bs and spin.

I'd really hate to be on the wrong side of history on this. I think there are still a ton of racial and xenophobic reactions to this case and to the people involved in presenting Adnan's side.

Also, anything said here about Don absolutely pales in comparison to the vicious, racist bile being spewed on other forums that discuss this case.

 

[Tiger09]

I still find it to be a shoddy investigation, shoddy trial, shoddy representation by both sides- prosecution and defense. The Jay deal is a clear Brady violation. I can't believe that Don wasn't looked into more because he was the current older boyfriend, supposed to see her that night, knew she was missing that evening, yet returns the cops' call after 1:30 am. I don't know anyone in this case personally, but I do know that if Hae were my friend or sister, I'd want the right person behind bars. I'd want the truth. The reason why I personally commented on Don's looks is because in the narrative that the prosecution presented- Adnan was so enamored with Hae and jealous of Don that he killed her- it does matter. They make it sound like this dreamy, All American Caucasian Surfer Boy has stolen the Moor's Korean princess in a twisted 2000 version of Othello. In reality, we don't know what it was. And what if- what if- Don did do it? Does Adnan deserve to sit in prison for life for another man's crime?

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

 

[watergirl62]

I am not certain whether Adnan is guilty or innocent, so I appreciate hearing both sides. Not sure that makes me a xenophobe, on this site or any other.

Love your unfulfilled twisted Othello analogy, Tiger09, and I also think Don warrants further scrutiny, which has nothing to do with his looks or his age or how unfathomable (to others) that Hae's attraction to him was. Maybe it was a "mature older man" deal.

 

[greenbean]

I am not certain whether Adnan is guilty or innocent, so I appreciate hearing both sides. Not sure that makes me a xenophobe, on this site or any other.

Love your unfulfilled twisted Othello analogy, Tiger09, and I also think Don warrants further scrutiny, which has nothing to do with his looks or his age or how unfathomable (to others) that Hae's attraction to him was. Maybe it was a "mature older man" deal.

Maybe it was that Camaro!
🚗🚗🚗

 

[cujenn81]

I just heard them talk about Websleuths on the podcast Reveal (totally unrelated to this case), and I got so excited! I just thought I'd share.

 

[greenbean]

OH MY GAWD WE ARE FAMOUS. Wait. No. We're not. Dang.

I was totally ready for my close-up!

😜

 

[MissHaley]

IMO, this reddit debate has become an obsession between agroup of people on reddit against the Undisclosed & SD podcasts people.They’ve made it personal. It’s gone so far beyond Hae & Adnan and I don’tthink they even care about them or the case anymore!
Undisclosed are professional people really involved in thecase. Their findings may actually be used in the case. The reddit group is not. There is a switch nowfrom ‘did Adnan do it’ to a full on mission against Rabia, Susan, Colin &Bob. Instead of debating about the case, it’s become let’s prove them wrong!
Now we have threats to post the crime scene photos, not forinfo on the case, but to prove the Undisclosed group are liars. JMO

 

[kemo]

I have followed this case since Serial came out but I am hardly up on all of the minutiae. From what I do know, I am inclined to believe Adnan is guilty. Of course, that plus $3.98 buys a latte as I my opinion is pretty irrelevant.

Above and beyond the question of guilt is the issue of sentencing and the appropriateness of life without parole for someone who was 17 when he committed a murder. It is a fact that most juveniles who murder are out by age 25 and I suspect that most Adult murderers in the US serve less than 17 years. The murder of Hae was ruthless and premeditated but not particularly "heinous".

I suspect that had a plea bargain been negotiated, Adnan would be out today. Now I understand the need for out of court settlements (otherwise courts would be jammed with every nickel and dime case) but the "spread" between the sentence a defendant will receive if he goes to trial and is convicted and he would receive if he "pleads out" tends to undermine the right to a trial. Conversely, someone who is innocent or in a situation where the people paying for his legal representation believe him to be truly innocent, is in a very difficult position. I have my doubts that Adnan made truly informed decision to proceed with a trial without attempting to reach a plea agreement.

I think an appropriate resolution of this case would be for the State of Maryland to re-open the case and allow Adnan to receive an adjustment of his sentence so that he would only serve a sentence typical of other defendants charged with similar crimes in exchange for a full confession.

 

[greenbean]

IMO, this reddit debate has become an obsession between agroup of people on reddit against the Undisclosed & SD podcasts people.They’ve made it personal. It’s gone so far beyond Hae & Adnan and I don’tthink they even care about them or the case anymore!
Undisclosed are professional people really involved in thecase. Their findings may actually be used in the case. The reddit group is not. There is a switch nowfrom ‘did Adnan do it’ to a full on mission against Rabia, Susan, Colin &Bob. Instead of debating about the case, it’s become let’s prove them wrong!
Now we have threats to post the crime scene photos, not forinfo on the case, but to prove the Undisclosed group are liars. JMO

I absolutely believe they WILL be posted. I'm surprised that they have sat on them this long.

So horrible.

 

[cujenn81]

For anyone interested, Susan Simpson created a model of the crime scene photos and posted them on her blog. http://viewfromll2.com/2015/09/30/what-the-crime-scene-photographs-show/

Of course, what you take from the model depends on whether you trust her representation of the crime scene.

But, to her credit, she thoroughly explains the differences between the model and the crime scene photos, and she explains the small details that would have been impossible to recreate. You can tell she put a lot of work into it, and I commend her for that.

 

[Aleph]

I absolutely believe they WILL be posted. I'm surprised that they have sat on them this long.

So horrible.

I think that the release of the photos is inevitable. That's probably just the age we live in, but it is unfortunate.

Like many of you, I've been following all of this closely. I believe that the Reddit crowd is right about Adnan's guilt and that the podcasters are very, very mistaken and/or misrepresenting the facts.


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[watergirl62]

Maybe it was that Camaro!
🚗🚗🚗

Ha, indeed! Camaro ups the man sexay by an order of magnitude.