CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[Aleph]

On the podcast, Adnan can barely bring himself to say her name.


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[MzOpinion8d]

On the podcast, Adnan can barely bring himself to say her name.


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I don't feel this is a just characterization, because SK had many, many hours of recordings and only a small percentage actually ended up on the podcast. Many of his quotes are framed in SK's context of the story. When doing statement analysis it's best to base it on the "free editing" process, and avoiding the victim's name IS a red flag for sensitivity, but in the context of an interview that is ongoing and in which we are not allowed to hear the whole thing, it's not as easy to discern the meaning.

 

[trex]

If you google the documents, it gives you Don's full name. That um shows you he's no Zack Morris.

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. *sipping my tea*

And again, we are to believe the more attractive, popular kid with a great future murdered his ex and not the older boyfriend? The ex who got a cell phone specifically to speak to other girls, killed the bright and pretty popular Hae Min Lee? Not this older dude? Well, Ima sip my tea because that's none of my business....

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I found Don's full name in the trial transcripts but I still was not able to find his definitive pic via image searches with his full name. Is it bad that this is driving me crazy cus I am much too insanely curious what he actually looks like?? Lol. Any tips on how you found the actual picture using his full name? (If I'm allowed to ask )

 

[Tiger09]

I added serial behind it and Maryland and then Bel Air High, MD. Low and behold, he popped up.

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[jane_tennison]

ITA. I also think Adnan killed Hae, although it took me awhile to get there.

Could you say more about this?

 

[cujenn81]

I just wanted to say that after seeing Don's photos, I'm definitely not buying the state's motive theory. There's no way that Adnan's ego felt threatened by that guy. He was a good looking kid going off to school soon to study pre-med. Don was an unattractive 20 year old dude working for his mom in a lab at LensCrafters (i.e. cutting lenses for eyeglasses).

I truly think Hae broke it off with Adnan simply because she couldn't deal with his parents anymore. Not because she didn't care about him but because she hated all the sneaking around. She wanted to date a guy who's mom probably really liked her, for a change. She didn't have to hide their relationship, he was older (& thus, he probably seemed years more mature than A) and she could hang out over at his place late at night... she had a place to go when she and her mom would fight... and she didn't have to worry about his mom flipping out on her. This new relationship probably appealed to her because it was the complete opposite of her relationship with Adnan.

I actually dated a guy when I was 16 who MY parents hated and we had to sneak around to see each other. After we broke up, I dated a 20 year old guy my parents loved. Now, he looked a whole lot better than Hae's 20 yr. old BF ... but it wasn't long before I got bored dating him BECAUSE he was so much more mature than I was and we had nothing in common. Adnan probably knew her relationship with Don would fizzle out just as quickly as mine did... I mean, wasn't their first date on NYE? So they dated a whole 13 days before she was reported missing? I just don't accept the fact that A killed her because he was jealous of this guy and their 13 day relationship. Period.

 

[greenbean]

I just wanted to say that after seeing Don's photos, I'm definitely not buying the state's motive theory. There's no way that Adnan's ego felt threatened by that guy. He was a good looking kid going off to school soon to study pre-med. Don was an unattractive 20 year old dude working for his mom in a lab at LensCrafters (i.e. cutting lenses for eyeglasses).

I truly think Hae broke it off with Adnan simply because she couldn't deal with his parents anymore. Not because she didn't care about him but because she hated all the sneaking around. She wanted to date a guy who's mom probably really liked her, for a change. She didn't have to hide their relationship, he was older (& thus, he probably seemed years more mature than A) and she could hang out over at his place late at night... she had a place to go when she and her mom would fight... and she didn't have to worry about his mom flipping out on her. This new relationship probably appealed to her because it was the complete opposite of her relationship with Adnan.

I actually dated a guy when I was 16 who MY parents hated and we had to sneak around to see each other. After we broke up, I dated a 20 year old guy my parents loved. Now, he looked a whole lot better than Hae's 20 yr. old BF ... but it wasn't long before I got bored dating him BECAUSE he was so much more mature than I was and we had nothing in common. Adnan probably knew her relationship with Don would fizzle out just as quickly as mine did... I mean, wasn't their first date on NYE? So they dated a whole 13 days before she was reported missing? I just don't accept the fact that A killed her because he was jealous of this guy and their 13 day relationship. Period.

Well-stated and spot on. I totally agree.

 

[watergirl62]

Could you say more about this?

That was after listening only to the Serial podcast. Which, while I appreciated the format and the life it brought to the case, and the impact it had on the world of podcasts, left me very unsatisfied with the narrator's point of view. She seemed to idolize Adnan, which skewed my takeaway, i guess.

Since then, I have started on the Undisclosed series, which I just heard of reading here a couple of days ago. While more difficult to follow, it is SO much more insightful, IMO. I still think Jay is just a tool for the law, that hes playing for both sides 24/7, and can't seem to keep straight who he is at any given moment. Whatever. I don't think that makes him guilty of killing Hae. LE totally owns that guy. This guy who killed another girl previously? I definitely want to find out more about him. I have shifted a bit on Adnan being guilty, haven't ruled him out but am open to other ideas, as I delve into the series. They are doing a really good job of describing how horrendous the investigative efforts were by law enforcement. Wow. I have no words.

So I am really appreciating the Undisclosed series. Because lawyers. I also love the analogy the one guy made to the Gene Hackman movie "the Conversation." The guy ends up totally losing it in the process of trying to figure out what was said in a small piece of surveillance work he recorded. This case is mind-bending like that.

 

[trex]

I just wanted to say that after seeing Don's photos, I'm definitely not buying the state's motive theory. There's no way that Adnan's ego felt threatened by that guy. He was a good looking kid going off to school soon to study pre-med. Don was an unattractive 20 year old dude working for his mom in a lab at LensCrafters (i.e. cutting lenses for eyeglasses).

I truly think Hae broke it off with Adnan simply because she couldn't deal with his parents anymore. Not because she didn't care about him but because she hated all the sneaking around. She wanted to date a guy who's mom probably really liked her, for a change. She didn't have to hide their relationship, he was older (& thus, he probably seemed years more mature than A) and she could hang out over at his place late at night... she had a place to go when she and her mom would fight... and she didn't have to worry about his mom flipping out on her. This new relationship probably appealed to her because it was the complete opposite of her relationship with Adnan.

I actually dated a guy when I was 16 who MY parents hated and we had to sneak around to see each other. After we broke up, I dated a 20 year old guy my parents loved. Now, he looked a whole lot better than Hae's 20 yr. old BF ... but it wasn't long before I got bored dating him BECAUSE he was so much more mature than I was and we had nothing in common. Adnan probably knew her relationship with Don would fizzle out just as quickly as mine did... I mean, wasn't their first date on NYE? So they dated a whole 13 days before she was reported missing? I just don't accept the fact that A killed her because he was jealous of this guy and their 13 day relationship. Period.

Completely agree. After finally seeing Don's picture this morning, my mind was blown. I was honestly expecting so much more from this "dreamy guy". I also think there's just not enough solid evidence in this case to say beyond a doubt that Adnan did this, they did not even test all of the DNA found at the scene. Jay was co-erced by detectives into saying exactly what they wanted him to say as part of a supposed "plea", Hmmmmmm. Not saying Jay did it but the whole thing with him is so fishy. Then there's the possibility of Don's fraudulent time sheet. Or the possibility of the serial killer who had already killed other asian girls in the area by strangulation around that time. Or that Jay was involved and did it so Hae wouldn't tell on him for cheating. After all the different podcasts I've listened to and hours on Reddit I am still trying to figure out which way I even lean with all this. So many possibilities.. There is so much still to be uncovered, and I'm hoping that it leads to a 100% we know *for sure* who did this to Hae result. Ultimately it's about her. If Adnan is truly innocent then he deserves to be able to live the rest of his life in freedom. But, if they can provide absolute concrete evidence that Adnan did do it, then at least we will know for sure and he is already locked up. I am way too addicted to this case.. It will be interesting to see what develops.

 

[greenbean]

Hey hey hey!! Did any of ya'll listen to serial dynasty today?

Bob (the host) kinda drives me batty but I'm still a pretty loyal listener. What did y'all think of the latest episode and the interview, etc?

 

[cujenn81]

Hey hey hey!! Did any of ya'll listen to serial dynasty today?

Bob (the host) kinda drives me batty but I'm still a pretty loyal listener. What did y'all think of the latest episode and the interview, etc?

I've listened to the first half of it but haven't finished it yet. I'll be sure to report back.

On another note, I'm excited that Jim Clemente will be joining Bob in an upcoming episode to discuss his theories. Clemente is really well-respected, he worked as a profiler with the FBI for more than 20 years and has a TON of investigative experience. (He also wrote episodes for the tv show, Criminal Minds.) I'm interested to hear what he thinks.

 

[greenbean]

I've listened to the first half of it but haven't finished it yet. I'll be sure to report back.

On another note, I'm excited that Jim Clemente will be joining Bob in an upcoming episode to discuss his theories. Clemente is really well-respected, he worked as a profiler with the FBI for more than 20 years and has a TON of investigative experience. (He also wrote episodes for the tv show, Criminal Minds.) I'm interested to hear what he thinks.

Yeah, that profiler is great. I've heard him on another podcast previously-- maybe Crime Time?

I could only get through half of Laura's interview. I'm going to try to finish it today. I just kinda feel like Bob would interview LITERALLY anyone, like he'd interview Hae's mom's hairdresser, if he could.

Laura's perspective seems kind of useless to me, thus far.

I'm curious what you think...

 

[Aleph]

I wonder how close Laura could have been to any of these people if they didn't discuss anything with her.


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[Soulmagent]

I wonder how close Laura could have been to any of these people if they didn't discuss anything with her.


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She talked a lot but not a lot of anything was said. The part where she talked about Jay's family and how his home life was is most likely a perception she gained from Jay , not by seeing it to be true. She believed it to be true because Jay said it was true. I don't believe everyone was awesome, I think the weed was awesome. She said everyone liked Hae,but we know that isn't true. Some of what she said about how the relationships relate is odd. She didnt mention Stephanie and Adnan being close friends. Skipped over the period of time when Hae's body was found in the park and went to Adnan's arrest. I know they were all teens but Debbie's actions seem to imply she is the most upset by Hae being murdered of anyone in the case.Debbie never said anything about being a witness? Like everything else in this case the next logical thing one expects to happen never happens. I end up stuck on some glitch like Debbie the 7 hour talker not mentioning the trial to Laura so that she knew nothing of testimony until serial.

 

[cujenn81]

Yeah, that profiler is great. I've heard him on another podcast previously-- maybe Crime Time?

I could only get through half of Laura's interview. I'm going to try to finish it today. I just kinda feel like Bob would interview LITERALLY anyone, like he'd interview Hae's mom's hairdresser, if he could.

Laura's perspective seems kind of useless to me, thus far.

I'm curious what you think...

I agree with you 100%.

I finished the second half of the podcast last night, and Laura's interview revealed absolutely nothing. The descriptions she gave about Jay, and Hae, and everyone else involved, didn't give me a better understanding about who they were at all. She rambled on, and on, and on about really insignificant things for a large part of the interview. Even Bob seemed eager for her to wrap it up, and he's just as guilty of rambling on and on like she did.

Telling me that you knew which night was "spaghetti night" at Stephanie's house, or talking to me about how you were the captain of the soccer team and cheered on Hae's hockey team during practice, is a waste of my time. I also felt like she embellished her story to make it seem she was closer to some of these people than she was in reality. Jay is the only person she talked about that I believe she was actually close to, based on the information she provided.

I thought Bob's interview with Krista was way more insightful, and her story actually seemed genuine. However, his interviews with Laura and E (AKA neighbor boy) have been a complete waste of my time.

 

[greenbean]

OMG, cujenne, I thought I was going to puke listening to Bob and E. The folksy buddy-buddy way Bod spoke to E -- like he could really relate to E-- just seemed so phoney and bizarre.

He'll have Hae's mom's gardener's ex hairdresser on next.

God, this all must be such salt in the wound for Hae's mom.

I kinda wonder if these random people are being paid for these interviews...?

 

[cujenn81]

OMG, cujenne, I thought I was going to puke listening to Bob and E. The folksy buddy-buddy way Bod spoke to E -- like he could really relate to E-- just seemed so phoney and bizarre.

He'll have Hae's mom's gardener's ex hairdresser on next.

God, this all must be such salt in the wound for Hae's mom.

I kinda wonder if these random people are being paid for these interviews...?

They could be... but I think it's more likely that these randoms just want to feel important because of the case's popularity and are looking for their 15 seconds of fame.

And, I completely agree about E's interview. Bob (side note--I really hate saying that name for some reason... haha) trying to sound cool and unaffected by all the f-bomb and "train" talk was awkward. I mean, was it really necessary for E to add that tidbit of information? TMI. How was that relevant?

Who knows if that really even happened, but it certainly doesn't agree with the way Laura made him out to be ... as a guy who would never do wrong by his friends and was always willing to help out in any way.

Now that I think about it... her picture of Jay doesn't really agree with someone who would resist arrest and fight a police officer either. Yet, we know for a fact that happened. Plus, he had a juvenile record with God only knows what kind of charges in it. He definitely wasn't someone who always tried to stay out of trouble, like she wants us to think. It's possible his past with the law was the result of harassment, but I don't know if I believe that. Once or twice, maybe. But I don't believe that innocent people end up in jail or juvenile detention on a regular basis (keyword: regular) for no other reason than the cops are out to get them. It's much more likely that he was harassed by cops because he hung out with shady people, in sketchy places, and was up to no good more often than not. But, that's just my opinion.

I'm not necessarily saying Jay is a bad guy, and I don't think he had anything to do with Hae's murder, but he wasn't a straight laced kid either. He was a known drug dealer, worked at a video *advertiser censored* store, etc. I just think he's a victim of the "hang with dogs, get their fleas" truism. He had a crappy childhood, got mixed up with some dogs, cops associated him with those dogs, started doing dog things, you catch my drift. Haha... I may not be making much sense right now. I'm a little sleep deprived. I apologize, in advance.

 

[watergirl62]

I only started reading about Hae a couple of weeks ago and am now listening to the Undisclosed series. I can't multitask when I listen to those or I miss lots of the content. Definitely a timesink but... this case! Such a cluster ____!

Serial dynasty? I am so far behind y'all but thrilled to know there's more pods to ingest.

For context, I lost my only son when he was 18. No resolution will bring Hae back. Ever! RIP Hae. :rose:

Justice, however, could be resurrected. That's the best we can hope for. Turning tragedy into beauty is all we are left to work with. Lots of energy working toward that end. Love it.

 

[MissHaley]

Hi everyone! Checking back in. The mystery keeps going!
Wonder if anyone could comment on this, it's one of the many things bugging me.
When Jay told the police his story about the 'trunk pops' -no matter where they were all over town- Why was Hae's car NEVER tested to confirm there was a body in the trunk?
I would think that it would be a basic piece of evidence to 'prove' Jay's story & surely help their case, if indeed, it was found there was evidence there was a dead body in the trunk.

Would you suppose that it wasn't tested because the cops never even believed Jay's story? They knew Hae was never in the trunk, so to them, there was no need to test it? To me, that seems the only reason not to verify with trunk evidence. Because, how could the police just believe a witness, no questions asked?

Usually, they check out what the witness is saying, but as Urick said in the Intercept interview, they used the cell tower pings to collaborate Jay's story. (!) But no other solid evidence? They didn't even interview the 'friends' of Jay's that were on the cell phone records, that Jay said were his friends, not Adnan's. Really? They didn't even bother to verify who Jay was with and when? They just accepted his story & said, 'ok'!!??

I think of it this way, I go down to the police station & tell them that Mr. ABC did a crime. They ask how I know this. I tell them I was with Mr. ABC during some point after the crime. They said 'OK'. And don't even try to verify my story with witnesses? Where I was really during that time? Testing things I told them about? I'm oversimplifying it, but, basic idea.


Again, because if someone saw a dead body in a trunk, how would they 'forget' where they saw it? and why would there be so many stories about a 'trunk pop'.

 

[greenbean]

Hi everyone! Checking back in. The mystery keeps going!
Wonder if anyone could comment on this, it's one of the many things bugging me.
When Jay told the police his story about the 'trunk pops' -no matter where they were all over town- Why was Hae's car NEVER tested to confirm there was a body in the trunk?
I would think that it would be a basic piece of evidence to 'prove' Jay's story & surely help their case, if indeed, it was found there was evidence there was a dead body in the trunk.

Would you suppose that it wasn't tested because the cops never even believed Jay's story? They knew Hae was never in the trunk, so to them, there was no need to test it? To me, that seems the only reason not to verify with trunk evidence. Because, how could the police just believe a witness, no questions asked?

Usually, they check out what the witness is saying, but as Urick said in the Intercept interview, they used the cell tower pings to collaborate Jay's story. (!) But no other solid evidence? They didn't even interview the 'friends' of Jay's that were on the cell phone records, that Jay said were his friends, not Adnan's. Really? They didn't even bother to verify who Jay was with and when? They just accepted his story & said, 'ok'!!??

I think of it this way, I go down to the police station & tell them that Mr. ABC did a crime. They ask how I know this. I tell them I was with Mr. ABC during some point after the crime. They said 'OK'. And don't even try to verify my story with witnesses? Where I was really during that time? Testing things I told them about? I'm oversimplifying it, but, basic idea.


Again, because if someone saw a dead body in a trunk, how would they 'forget' where they saw it? and why would there be so many stories about a 'trunk pop'.

They had no motivation to prove Jay was telling the truth. They needed him to testify to what they needed to arrest and charge Adnan.

Jay's full of it but, if facing a murder one charge and, possibly, the death penalty, who wouldn't lie?

I'm so sorry about your son, Watergirl. I can't fathom that. ❤️