CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[Hope4More]

I personally don't think Jay had anything to do with Hae's murder or had any inside info about her demise whatsoever. I think he let the cops bully him into making up a story based around bits of information that he was fed without even realizing it. He was dealing drugs and even talked about how the cops harassed him all the time in his interview with The Intercept. IMO, he just told the cops what they wanted to hear so they would finally leave him alone.

While I have no idea what happened to Hae that day, I am curious about the discrepancy with Don's time card at LensCrafters. Plus, I always thought it was weird how everyone was so hung up about Adnan not calling her that night or over the next few days but never questioned why Don didn't. He was supposed to see Hae that night IIRC, but he never paged her when she didn't show up (which wasn't typical behavior for her)? Or when he hadn't heard from her in days? And then there's the thing about him not calling the detective back until 1 AM. I'm not saying I think he's guilty of anything, I'm just curious why his alibi wasn't investigated more aggressively.

But....he was a penny ante dealer, and in the suburbs, not in Baltimore City. IMO his stated fear about the cops busting him for drugs is completely bogus, just a handy dandy, too tidy "explanation" for his stream of lies and evasions.

IMO, there is little doubt Jay was directly involved. After listening to the Serial podcast when it first aired, I thought Adnan was more likely guilty than not. After just recently reading all the original docs via Undisclosed, I'm leaning towards Jay and just Jay.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I think [Jay] let the cops bully him into making up a story based around bits of information that he was fed without even realizing it.

I suspect Jay had something to do with the crime and he let the cops bully him into a specific story. I think the cops got a strong feeling Adnan was perpetrator. Instead of presenting the evidence that gave them this feeling in court, where a jury might find there's reasonable doubt, they got Jay to say whatever lies the police thought they'd need for a conviction.

 

[Aleph]

But....he was a penny ante dealer, and in the suburbs, not in Baltimore City. IMO his stated fear about the cops busting him for drugs is completely bogus, just a handy dandy, too tidy "explanation" for his stream of lies and evasions.

IMO, there is little doubt Jay was directly involved. After listening to the Serial podcast when it first aired, I thought Adnan was more likely guilty than not. After just recently reading all the original docs via Undisclosed, I'm leaning towards Jay and just Jay.

But some of Jay's family members had serious criminal histories and probably wouldn't appreciate the police showing up to ask questions. Even if all of Jay's family members were model citizens, isn't it understandable that a black man living in Baltimore might not want to voluntarily trigger an open-ended police investigation centering around his life and his home? I think that's more than adequate explanation for his shifting accounts. He doesn't want to involve anyone that doesn't have to be involved, including himself.

I think that Jay was more involved than he admits. But he wasn't the one with the compelling motive, the one that causes thousands of women to be murdered every year. That was Adnan. He was Hae's ex-boyfriend, described by Hae in her diary as "possessive" and (elsewhere) as not getting over their breakup very well.

Women don't get murdered by their acquaintances. Not without a sexual motive.


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[CircuitGuy]

He's guilty as in he and Adnan were equally involved in the setup, the murder, the 'burial' and the cover-up IMO

In your opinion and according to Jay's testimony, right? Jay admits Adnan told Jay beforehand that he was going to do it and might need help disposing of the evidence. Jay admits he went to help Adnan bury the body as planned. Based on his own story, he's every bit as guilty as Adnan.

I don't believe anything Jay says. My point, though, is that Jay claims he's equally involved. I don't get how he knew the police wouldn't turn on him and prosecute him as a murderer.

 

[Hope4More]

But some of Jay's family members had serious criminal histories and probably wouldn't appreciate the police showing up to ask questions. Even if all of Jay's family members were model citizens, isn't it understandable that a black man living in Baltimore might not want to voluntarily trigger an open-ended police investigation centering around his life and his home? I think that's more than adequate explanation for his shifting accounts. He doesn't want to involve anyone that doesn't have to be involved, including himself.

I think that Jay was more involved than he admits. But he wasn't the one with the compelling motive, the one that causes thousands of women to be murdered every year. That was Adnan. He was Hae's ex-boyfriend, described by Hae in her diary as "possessive" and (elsewhere) as not getting over their breakup very well.

Women don't get murdered by their acquaintances. Not without a sexual motive.


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Jay didn't live in Baltimore City proper, but in the suburbs. I'm sure no one who deals drugs welcomes being questioned by homocide detectives, especially if one is, at the very least, also an accessory after the fact to murder, the latter factor weighing far more heavily on Jay, IMO.

As far as motive. Sure women get killed by acquaintances they are not engaged with sexually. In any case, Adnan and Hae were high school kids. IMO what a teenage girl writes in her journal about BF's isn't very good evidence about much of anything except teenage volatility.

Some friends say (hearsay, I know), that Adnan had genuinely moved on, that he considered Don a lesser-than and not a threat to his sense of self. Teenagers, a short term romance, storm and fury at the end, IMO, a reach at best as motive.

 

[Swirlz]

I know this is kind of off-topic but this case reminds of the Roberta 'Bibi' Lee case, late eighties. It happened in the San Francisco Bay area. A high-achieving young woman was found dead and her boyfriend was ultimately convicted on what a lot of people considered shaky evidence. A book titled The Dead Girl was written about.

 

[audreyparker]

Just finished reading the whole thread, whew!! I have listened to serial and undisclosed and will be listening to t&j soon. I have to say, after I listened to serial I felt unsure about whether AS was guilty or innocent but I definitely leaned toward guilty. But, my mind was completely changed after undisclosed. I believe he's innocent. And yes I know that podcast is biased towards AS innocence. However undisclosed was full of bombshells that frankly make this whole case a giant Brady violation as well as an illustration of police tunnel vision and poor investigation. And this case took place right in the middle of well documented cases of misconduct so it's not a stretch for it to be possible that the same kinds of things happened in this case.

IMO, After listening to undisclosed AS was the only suspect from day one - before Hae's body was even found. That concentration on AS and only AS is evident in the lack of interviews conducted, improper or missing documentation and testing and the lack of investigation of alibis like Dons (totally inexcusable). Things started bad for AS with the lies about the patterns of young Muslim males getting away with murder and the incorrect birthdate making him "eligible" for the death penalty and only got worse from there.

Im just not sure how the state thinks they will ever get a conviction a second time. Their star witness has told numerous totally different stories - all documented and can't seems to keep his story straight. And if AS didn't kill Hae, how did jay know where her car was? Their other "bombshell" evidence (phone records) is unreliable and they can't use it like they did the first time. They have untested evidence (why?!? And they will need to test it before a new trial) and the state of Hae's body does not match the timeline the state is boxed into. The lividity does not match Jays story. I believe in one statement he said that when AS showed him Hae's body in the trunk he saw her lips were blue. If he could see her lips obviously she wasn't face down (lividity problems again). It sounds like she wasn't buried as much as being covered over with dirt and leaves. Where is the evidence of animal predation? I can't believe she was out in the elements for almost a month without having some type of damage due to animals. I know it was winter but there were still animals in the woods. Where was she for the 8-12 hours it takes for lividity to fix?

After how the prosecution in some other cases have acted when they had to have known they convicted the wrong person (Ryan Ferguson, Barry Beach) I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to insist they are right but I just dont see how there is going to be another conviction. It will be very interesting to see how things proceed.

 

[audreyparker]

Darn it, the most important part of my post didn't show up and I can't edit.

I do think AS is innocent and that is important however, the biggest reason I want this to be sorted out is because Hae and her family deserve justice.

If AS is guilty, he should have a fair trial so the questions can be put to rest. The state owes Hae and her family the very best investigation they can provide and IMO, that was definitely not done in this case.

If AS is innocent then two families don't have justice and that's wrong. If he is innocent then that means a murderer has walked free all this time and no one has been looking for them.

 

[0101ABA]

The Maryland Attorney General's Office on Monday formally appealed a ruling that overturned the conviction of "Serial" podcast subject Adnan Syed, arguing that a judge wrongly allowed new arguments over cell phone evidence.

The Attorney General's Office, which has been fighting Syed's appeal, said that his latest post-conviction hearing had been convened to hear from an alibi witness who said she was with Syed during a time when prosecutors originally argued he was killing ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-syed-20160801-story.html

 

[mrsobrien]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-syed-20160801-story.html

Well, we expected this. I don't fully understand what this means for the retrial...

 

[Embley]

Well, we expected this. I don't fully understand what this means for the retrial...

That it is going to take a lot longer...

I don't believe they can schedule a retrial until after this appeal has been addressed, as there wouldn't be need for a retrial is the decision to throw out his conviction is overturned during the appeal.

To me, it feels like they are stalling. I don't believe the state has enough evidence for a retrial, so they are trying to buy time.

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[EmiLove832]

Adnan's lawyers can now appeal the States appeal. The State is threatening it has a witness that can prove Asia lied about seeing Adnan at the library.

Seriously?! If that were true, why would they have waited to reveal this witness.

I believe the State does not have anything but they don't want to drop the case because they don't want to admit how badly they screwed up.

 

[Embley]

Adnan's lawyers can now appeal the States appeal. The State is threatening it has a witness that can prove Asia lied about seeing Adnan at the library.

Seriously?! If that were true, why would they have waited to reveal this witness.

I believe the State does not have anything but they don't want to drop the case because they don't want to admit how badly they screwed up.

That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying!

And I completely agree with you. I don't think the state has anything. Even if they do have a witness to disprove Asia, unless the state can come with some substantial new evidence, they are just grasping at straws. Without the cell phone evidence, they have very little to make the conviction stick, pretty much just Jay's story.

I too think they are just trying to hide the fact that they royally screwed up.

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[LilszOG]

I would love to jump in the discussion with you guys !
I have listened to the serial podcast, and started listening to his best friends, sisters podcast.
Does anyone have any updates on his new trial ?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I would love to jump in the discussion with you guys !
I have listened to the serial podcast, and started listening to his best friends, sisters podcast.
Does anyone have any updates on his new trial ?

The state has filed an appeal on the ruling to vacate the conviction. More waiting!

 

[LilszOG]

Thank you so much for that update! I appreciate it ! I tried looking up some information but I was having some trouble.

 

[msvick66]

I have looked several times but cannot find a thread here at all on the case of Greg Witman. The Witman's appear in an episode of Serial. I have put it in the search several ways and nothing comes up. It's such a big case I'm surprised so I must not be doing something right. The case is fascinating and so tragic. I tend to think that Zach Witman could not have done what he is accused of, but I'm not sure. Wanted to find more info on it and see what people think here. There are 2 podcasts on the case, one by Generation Why and the other by a new podcast which I absolutely love called "The Insight Podcast". Both end up thinking Zach must have done it, but I still have my doubts. It just seems like he would have been drenched in blood had he been the killer. There is also a site his parents made for him trying to get him a new trial. His first attorney was CG, so that's why Sarah interviewed the parents and mentions the case on one of the later episodes of Serial. Thanks to anyone who knows anything about this and if there is a thread here discussing the case somewhere.

 

[LilszOG]

http://www.eveningsun.com/topic/Zachary-Witman/

This is what I found in a quick search, I have not heard anything about this case. I also don't remember it coming up in serial ! Thank you for this information I will check out both the podcasts you are recommending ! I would say you should check out sword and scale if you have not already

 

[msvick66]

Thanks, LilszOG. Maybe you could start a thread on his case here? I'm interested to know what others think. I know some of the evidence looks really bad, but I just don't think he did it. It just doesn't make any sense. I don't know who else could have, however. I can only think of someone who was strung out on meth or something--it's just so savage. I don't think anyone who just stabbed someone 100 times would not be out of breath and able to talk normally. He also seemed to be appropriately hysterical. If he had done it, he could have cleaned up and changed clothes before calling 911. Adam Lane, the truck driver serial killer has been suggested as well. The key was in the door, and we know Lane would just go to houses and try doors. As far as is known, he only killed women, but they were not sexually assaulted--he just murdered them. So who's to say if he were there and someone came in that he wouldn't just start stabbing. I don't know, but it is such a bizarre killing and there just isn't any reason for Zach to have done such a thing especially with no past violent behavior or problems between them.

I'm aware of Sword & Scale and thanks! Another really good podcast is True Crime Garage. It's probably my favorite (no episodes on Zach's case, but lots of great topics discussed on it). Some of the older ones you have to purchase if you didn't download them before they go off itunes, but they are worth it. I usually wouldn't pay for anything like that, but the garage is a very good one. The older ones are 1.99. The current ones are free, but download them if you want to save them and not have to purchase.

 

[LilszOG]

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