GUILTY MD - Korryn Gaines, 23, fatally shot by Baltimore police, 1 Aug 2016

[Ladylub]

You arrest people, don’t shoot them. Then they get their due process. Cliven Bundy pointed guns at LEOs and threatened to kill them. He was allowed to walk free for two years, before they arrested him, because they didn’t want to hurt him. He is getting his due process. A black woman in the ghetto, does the same thing, and she and her child get blown away in six hours, because she doesn’t need to have a trial.

Really? When did the child get "blown away" ?

 

[KaaBoom]

Driving is a privilege, not a right (as any parent of a teenager who drives has said many times!)

Those parents are misinforming their children. Which is why our rights keep slipping away from us.

U.S. Supreme Court says No License Necessary To Drive Automobile On Public Highways/Streets

“The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guaranty one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another’s rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct.”

Thompson v.Smith, 154 SE 579, 11 American Jurisprudence, Constitutional Law, section 329, page 1135 “The right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, in the ordinary course of life and business, is a common right which he has under the right to enjoy life and liberty, to acquire and possess property, and to pursue happiness and safety. It includes the right, in so doing, to use the ordinary and usual conveyances of the day, and under the existing modes of travel, includes the right to drive a horse drawn carriage or wagon thereon or to operate an automobile thereon, for the usual and ordinary purpose of life and business.” –

http://wearechange.org/u-s-supreme-...o-drive-automobile-on-public-highwaysstreets/

 

[CoolJ]

Some folks think that police should not engage in any traffic stops, and that would "solve" all of the "problems" of offenders with fines, outstanding bench warrants for non-appearance, etc. Some folks think that traffic stops are "unfair" in certain neighborhoods, or that they "target" certain races or cultures.

KG was driving a car with a cardboard sign in place of a license plate that said "Free Traveler"-- that is why she was pulled over in the first place. ANY driver with cardboard signs that said that, in place of license plates, would be pulled over for that---black, white, asian, hispanic, rich, poor, etc. She was not being racially profiled, picked on, or harassed. She WAS being "identified" as someone who was violating the law.

Her car had cardboard signs in place of license plates, and police were well within their duties to pull her over and find out more about exactly what was going on. She knew that, too. She deliberately put those signs on her car to PROVOKE the police into pulling her over, IMO. It was a set up for a confrontation that she was orchestrating, complete with kids in the car and her video recording, and mouthy and defiant refusal to cooperate. The police had that figured out, too.

Driving is a privilege, not a right (as any parent of a teenager who drives has said many times!). KG was free to "not believe" in traffic laws and registration laws, but she was not free to do as she pleases in terms of driving a car. She was subject to the same requirements for licensing, registration, insurance, and compliance with traffic laws as every other driver, as well as subject to providing proof of those when asked by law enforcement.

She could have chosen NOT to drive, and still held her (IMO, not sincere) "sovereign citizen" ideas, without breaking any laws. She could have walked, taken a taxi, rode a bicycle, taken public transportation, asked a neighbor for a ride, or just stayed home. The very fact that she put the cardboard sign on the car with the intention to drive it, is evidence that she knew precisely that what she was doing was not only legally wrong, but provocative. Again-- BEHAVIOR in putting the sign on the car, not beliefs, is the focus.

And her BEHAVIOR at the traffic stop is the next problem. The car was being impounded, she was being ticketed, and she refused to cooperate, even when officers offered to let her walk the few hundred feet to her apartment with her kids. Her BEHAVIOR earned her the arrest. This was not "over policing" or "police brutality".

Then her BEHAVIOR in not appearing in court, and not making other arrangements if she was unable to appear, earned her the bench warrant for her arrest.

And her BEHAVIOR when police arrived to serve the warrant caused her own death, and the injury to her child.

The police are not in the wrong at all here. This woman had numerous chances at every step of the entire 4-5 month process to cooperate with LE and the justice system. In the end, she chose to threaten police, endanger her child, and other bystanders, with a shotgun. For HOURS upon hours of negotiation. She wouldn't even listen to her own family! Her shooting was entirely justified by her behavior. Just like Michael Brown, Jamar Clark, and many others.

I'm incredulous that anyone, any reasonable, intelligent person, could think that what the police and the justice system did at each step in the process was not entirely justified by her actions. And it's a shame-- for someone so young and pretty on her outside, she was very ugly and despicable in her attitude, behavior, and treatment toward others, including her own child. I feel very bad for the police officers that had to deal with her, but I don't feel any sympathy, empathy, or pity for her. She was a terrible excuse for a human being, IMO.

I think you are preaching to the choir. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who did not find KG's behaviour extremely unsettling.
The argument is not whether or not KG was a criminal or social misfit. The argument is that many of your fellow citizens believe there are too many of these situations where LE are not placing maximum value on human life. Thy should approach these situations where you have an out of control person the exact same way they would approach if it were their out of control grandmother or daughter.

There is no question that if these officers lives were under immediate threat they had the right to use lethal force. No doubt about it. Could they have go into this situation with a better plan? Could they have waited to arrest her when she was going about her daily activities or another scenario where she wouldn't have access to a firearm? They knew she was a hostile and likely suicidal person.

Regardless of my respect for LE, when you see things like what just happened to that young man in Chicago, how can you help to wonder if they are not going into these situations without a care of whether or not their suspect ends up dead?

That is all activists and BLM supporters are asking for. To give the same value to the life of a career criminal or social misfit that you would to your loved ones. Is that something we can all agree on?

 

[KaaBoom]

Really? When did the child get "blown away" ?

The child was shot by LEOs. You know that. That is indefensible .

 

[Ladylub]

The child was shot by LEOs. You know that. That is indefensible .

Again no one is happy the child was caught in the crossfire. The police did not place him in the danger of a crossfire, his mother did. You also know the child was not "blown away".

 

[katydid23]

"That is all activists and BLM supporters are asking for. To give the same value to the life of a career criminal or social misfit that you would to your loved ones. Is that something we can all agree on?"

I am sorry, but I cannot agree on the above. I do not value the life of a career criminal that is pointing a weapon at an officer or a shopkeeper or their wife, in the same high esteem as I do other citizens. I just don't.

Take the kid in Chicago last week---that stole the car, drove it AT HIGH SPEED AT THE OFFICERS CAR, then careened at high speed past them, almost hitting a pedestrian, then jumping from the car and running into a neighbors back yard, fleeing arrest.

I do not hold his life in the same way as I do the people who live in that house, the owner of the car he stole nor the police he almost killed trying to arrest him. I just don't because he had NO care or concern for those he put at risk, nor does he have respect for his own life. So I would rather the police put their own lives and the safety of the public above the fleeing felons.

Maybe that makes me an awful person. But I am not going to fall into line with BLM and try and elevate the criminal element into some kind of martyrs or fallen heroes. If you steal a car and then drive it at high speed towards OTHER LIVING HUMANS, then you might end up dead yourself. And I have little sympathy for you at that point. :no:

 

[katydid23]

"Regardless of my respect for LE, when you see things like what just happened to that young man in Chicago, how can you help to wonder if they are not going into these situations without a care of whether or not their suspect ends up dead?"

Did you see what that young man in Chicago did, prior to his running from the cops? What about HIS ACTIONS? Did he have any care or concern for the officers he nearly killed by driving at full speed right at their car? Or the pedestrian he nearly ran over when careening out of the area to save his own sorry butt? Did he show any care or concern for the safety of others?

 

[Elley Mae]

The child was shot by LEOs. You know that. That is indefensible .

Being shot and being "blown way" is being alive or being dead. He is alive, he had a band aid on his cheek, which leaves me to believe that it did not penetrate. jmo

 

[KaaBoom]

Again no one is happy the child was caught in the crossfire. The police did not place him in the danger of a crossfire, his mother did. You also know the child was not "blown away".

That is bad training. Basic firearms training teaches not to fire if anyone is in the crossfire.

Know your target and what is beyond.

Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Criminals don't want due process, they want a 'get out of jail free' card. If she wanted due process she would have accepted the bench warrant. Instead, she chose to load a gun and point it at LE. She made her bed IMO.

 

[Cobra Jet]

They are the professionals. It got into a situation of no return. Her big deal was vehicle tickets. How absurd.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “Her big deal was vehicle tickets.”. Regardless of whether you think the police acted appropriate or not her other bad actions like pointing a gun at the police count as things she did to contribute to her own death. If a person litters and the police try to issue them a ticket and the person pulls out an AK47 and get in a gun fight with the police I don’t think it’s fair to say the police killed them over littering.
As always JMO

 

[human]

I don’t think it’s fair to say “Her big deal was vehicle tickets.”. Regardless of whether you think the police acted appropriate or not her other bad actions like pointing a gun at the police count as things she did to contribute to her own death. If a person litters and the police try to issue them a ticket and the person pulls out an AK47 and get in a gun fight with the police I don’t think it’s fair to say the police killed them over littering.
As always JMO

They went to the house because of tickets, not because she had a gun.

I have read on here police reports, One is of Jeff Hazlewood who has been arrested for killing teo teens in Georgia. Over the course of time, there are reports which show his erractic behavior.

Perhaps in Georgia LE are required to make such reports. If LE in Korryne's case did not document her strange behaviors, this is something they should do. They can learn from Georgia LE. This will help LE determine how best to approach volatile people and perhaps save their as well as other people's lives.

 

[Elley Mae]

They went to the house because of tickets, not because she had a gun.

I have read on here police reports, One is of Jeff Hazlewood who has been arrested for killing teo teens in Georgia. Over the course of time, there are reports which show his erractic behavior.

Perhaps in Georgia LE are required to make such reports. If LE in Korryne's case did not document her strange behaviors, this is something they should do. They can learn from Georgia LE. This will help LE determine how best to approach volatile people and perhaps save their as well as other people's lives.

bbm, They were serving a bench warrant for failure to appear for those tickets. remember? Then she pointed her gun at them and said she would kill them. remember? The Ga case has nothing to do with this. jmo

 

[human]

Here is an example of how a police report is written about what happens at a call. I find it hard to believe all LE are not required to write about an incident. The info about Korryne would or should have been in a file. The fact that she talked and acted in the sovereign nation manner should have alerted LE that there would be issues.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/nor...well-killings-our-hearts-are-broken/420189073

 

[Ladylub]

That is bad training. Basic firearms training teaches not to fire if anyone is in the crossfire.


http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

Which exact bullet hit him? The first? second? ......... We do know every step taken at the time the officer first fired his weapon, the child may have been a safe distance away. While bullets go quick it's not unheard of that the boy could have moved into the crossfire while scared or knowing his pitiful excuse of a mother may have pulled him in the middle. It only takes a second. The police are still not at fault here. Only Korryn caused the injury to the child and her own death.

 

[Cobra Jet]

They went to the house because of tickets, not because she had a gun.

I have read on here police reports, One is of Jeff Hazlewood who has been arrested for killing teo teens in Georgia. Over the course of time, there are reports which show his erractic behavior.

Perhaps in Georgia LE are required to make such reports. If LE in Korryne's case did not document her strange behaviors, this is something they should do. They can learn from Georgia LE. This will help LE determine how best to approach volatile people and perhaps save their as well as other people's lives.

I realize that was the initial reason they went there and I’m not commenting on whether the police could have done things differently. What I am saying is regardless of how the interactions with the police start your following actions contribute to the overall outcome.

I know that at times my examples can be a bit farfetched but if the police pull you over for a busted taillight, see a dead body in the back seat and things start to go south it seems to me a bit disingenuous to say anything that happened to you as a result of your actions after the body was discovered were over a busted taillight.

 

[galiuro]

"That is all activists and BLM supporters are asking for. To give the same value to the life of a career criminal or social misfit that you would to your loved ones. Is that something we can all agree on?"

I am sorry, but I cannot agree on the above. I do not value the life of a career criminal that is pointing a weapon at an officer or a shopkeeper or their wife, in the same high esteem as I do other citizens. I just don't.

Take the kid in Chicago last week---that stole the car, drove it AT HIGH SPEED AT THE OFFICERS CAR, then careened at high speed past them, almost hitting a pedestrian, then jumping from the car and running into a neighbors back yard, fleeing arrest.

I do not hold his life in the same way as I do the people who live in that house, the owner of the car he stole nor the police he almost killed trying to arrest him. I just don't because he had NO care or concern for those he put at risk, nor does he have respect for his own life. So I would rather the police put their own lives and the safety of the public above the fleeing felons.

Maybe that makes me an awful person. But I am not going to fall into line with BLM and try and elevate the criminal element into some kind of martyrs or fallen heroes. If you steal a car and then drive it at high speed towards OTHER LIVING HUMANS, then you might end up dead yourself. And I have little sympathy for you at that point. :no:

Add me to that 'awful person' category...if you ACT like a criminal then you can fully expect to be treated like one by those sworn to uphold the law you are breaking. So yes, you can expect to be 'valued less' because of your own actions. Because in those criminal actions you've made it clear you yourself don't value not only others' lives but your own. And that yes, is the backlash against BLM, most of the time they uphold a criminal's life as without blame and NEVER walk back their words, even when they are blatant LIES...

 

[rob]

In all of this back and forth about LE shooting people, people who committed crimes, are committing crimes, people resisting arrest, attacking LE, robbing, looting, stealing, attacking others, aiming weapons, I have not heard one person speak to the crime committers, asking, telling them, criminal activity is probably not the best way to live your life.
Not one person has spoken out against the criminal. In fact, they try to make them out as a martyr or a hero. A person who commits a crime and gets away with it, generally continues to commit crimes. AND someone is the victim. Someone got their car stolen, or hit by an uninsured driver, or knocked out by someone playing a vicious game and calling it fun. What about those people, those victims?
I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. I have a CCP because I am afraid of these people who live their live this way. I have never committed a crime in my life, other than speeding, and when stopped for that I owned up to it, respected the officer and paid the ticket.
People do not have a 'right' to do wrong.
All MOO

 

[rob]

Add me to that 'awful person' category...if you ACT like a criminal then you can fully expect to be treated like one by those sworn to uphold the law you are breaking. So yes, you can expect to be 'valued less' because of your own actions. Because in those criminal actions you've made it clear you yourself don't value not only others' lives but your own. And that yes, is the backlash against BLM, most of the time they uphold a criminal's life as without blame and NEVER walk back their words, even when they are blatant LIES...

I was thinking the same thing, and you said it much better. Thanks to you and K_Z

 

[human]

In all of this back and forth about LE shooting people, people who committed crimes, are committing crimes, people resisting arrest, attacking LE, robbing, looting, stealing, attacking others, aiming weapons, I have not heard one person speak to the crime committers, asking, telling them, criminal activity is probably not the best way to live your life.
Not one person has spoken out against the criminal. In fact, they try to make them out as a martyr or a hero. A person who commits a crime and gets away with it, generally continues to commit crimes. AND someone is the victim. Someone got their car stolen, or hit by an uninsured driver, or knocked out by someone playing a vicious game and calling it fun. What about those people, those victims?
I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. I am a CCP because I am afraid of these people who live their live this way. I have never committed a crime in my life, other than speeding, and when stopped for that I owned up to it, respected the officer and paid the ticket.
People do not have a 'right' to do wrong.
All MOO

For me it is not about her being a martyr. She was a human being . It seems like a mentally challenged person.

I am concerned about keeping people alive. When LE kills someone, those officers are pretty much done. They rarley recover.

Then there are the dead people who may or may not have been justifiably killed in a country that says there is due process. Police departments are looking at how to approach things differently. I am sure the lawsuits don't help and losing officers to the stress of killing is not helping.

Since many people do not have empathy for the victim of a shooting, how about some empathy for the officers who shoot and destroy their lives.