MD MD - Sr. Catherine Cesnik, 26, Baltimore, 7 Nov 1969 "The Keepers"

[JaJo]

I'd like to know who these "anonymous" characters are:

1. The student in Sr. Cathy's apartment the night before her disappearance when she claims Maskell and Magnus burst into the door.

2. "As police continued the search for evidence, Maskell proved just as slippery and well-connected as he had in 1969. Deep Throat said that as soon as he started looking into the Cesnik case, he received a phone call from one of his superiors in the police department.

“He said, ‘Listen kid, this is a career buster. We knew who the hell killed her back when it happened, and you’ll find out, and you’re gonna find out things you shouldn’t find out. Let it go,’” the detective recalled."

Have the identities of that student or Deep Throat been revealed?

 

[dotr]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6792200/

Nominated for 1 Primetime Emmy.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jul/15/keepers-church-response-netflix-baltimore-abuse
[/URL]

The Keepers is harrowing, documenting awful violence and abuse. I recently heard someone describe it as “brilliant”, and follow that immediately with “don’t watch it”. White was well aware of its potential impact. “We knew we had found something very sad, but also very powerful, that could lead to a lot of change,” he says. The sheer scope of the story The Keepers ends up telling – a cover-up of child abuse on a mass scale within the Catholic church; a new Spotlight, of sorts – became frightening to him.

“I’ll say it, I was afraid,” says White. “I was afraid many times during filming. I was probably afraid through the entire filming. You always had the sense that we were rooting around in something people didn’t want us rooting around in. It was definitely the most uncomfortable I’ve been in my film-making career.”

 

[ilovepierre]

I'd like to know who these "anonymous" characters are:

1. The student in Sr. Cathy's apartment the night before her disappearance when she claims Maskell and Magnus burst into the door.

2. "As police continued the search for evidence, Maskell proved just as slippery and well-connected as he had in 1969. Deep Throat said that as soon as he started looking into the Cesnik case, he received a phone call from one of his superiors in the police department.

“He said, ‘Listen kid, this is a career buster. We knew who the hell killed her back when it happened, and you’ll find out, and you’re gonna find out things you shouldn’t find out. Let it go,’” the detective recalled."

Have the identities of that student or Deep Throat been revealed?

AFAIK Deep Throat's identity won't be revealed.
He agreed to be on The Seekers in exchange for his identity to be kept secret.

 

[Ruby4742]

Joyce Malecki did NOT attend Archbishop Keough. Joyce's family home was up the street from the rectory (i.e., the priests' house) and Joyce attended St. Clement's Church in Lansdowne, the parish to which Father Maskell was assigned prior to being transferred to Keough (after abusing the Franz boy). Father Maskell visited the household of Edgar Davidson's sister often for dinner. Edgar lived with his sister, husband and niece. After Edgar got married and had children, he lived only 1-1/2 miles from Sister Cathy's apartment complex. In an interview on Baltimore news, Edgar's niece, who was featured in "The Keepers" admits that both Edgar and Father Maskell sexually abused her. She also explained that Edgar would take her with him to lure girls into his car, punching them in the stomach. Edgar was a two-footed driver. He walked home after parking the car at the complex. After the murder, he suddenly buys 4 brand new tires, knowing he and his wife cannot afford them. The link to the interview of Edgar's niece and his ex-wife can be found here. This information was not included in "The Keepers" : http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/08/baltimore-nun-murder/

 

[dotr]

Joyce Malecki did NOT attend Archbishop Keough. Joyce's family home was up the street from the rectory (i.e., the priests' house) and Joyce attended St. Clement's Church in Lansdowne, the parish to which Father Maskell was assigned prior to being transferred to Keough (after abusing the Franz boy). Father Maskell visited the household of Edgar Davidson's sister often for dinner. Edgar lived with his sister, husband and niece. After Edgar got married and had children, he lived only 1-1/2 miles from Sister Cathy's apartment complex. In an interview on Baltimore news, Edgar's niece, who was featured in "The Keepers" admits that both Edgar and Father Maskell sexually abused her. She also explained that Edgar would take her with him to lure girls into his car, punching them in the stomach. Edgar was a two-footed driver. He walked home after parking the car at the complex. After the murder, he suddenly buys 4 brand new tires, knowing he and his wife cannot afford them. The link to the interview of Edgar's niece and his ex-wife can be found here. This information was not included in "The Keepers" : http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/08/baltimore-nun-murder/

Welcome to Ws Ruby4742, thanks for the extra information!

 

[reintarnation]

My belief is that just as Maskell used the confessional as a means to find victims,he probably used it to find fellow sickos and also threatened people to do his bidding. In one of the first episodes, I believe it was Jean,who remembered a Police officer that did not want to participate,but Maskell pretty much tells him he has to. Was he holding things over individuals heads that they confessed to and then basically blackmailing them.?

Great point! I am not Catholic, but I imagine this is something a man might confess to. Maybe a watered down version, but then Maskell draws more out of him and convinces him it is okay, bringing him into the abuser circle.

That would also explain how these sickos would connect back then. You don't just walk up to people and talk about that. It also makes sense that Maskell would use the confessional in this way, since he was already using it to find victims.

As far as the officer who was reluctant to rape Jean...I wondered if maybe it was a control thing. Once he did it, Maskell has something over him.

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[reintarnation]

I wonder if she did talk to someone that summer, and was assured it would be handled. Allowing her to transfer to teaching at a public school for a year would make sense, so that there would be no repercussions from Fr. Maskell. She may have thought it was taken care of, until the night before she died, when some former students, still at Keough came to visit her and told her nothing had changed.

I have heard that Maskell burst in on that conversation, so he probably knows what was being discussed. Once she realized the archdiocese was not going to help, she may have decided to go to the police (never realizing their complicity in all of the abuse) which he felt he had to prevent.

Just throwing out a possibility. Because she was so kind and also modern and outspoken, it doe NOT seem like she would have waited months to take ANY action after telling Jean to enjoy her summer and assuring her she would address the problem. It is likely that Cathy thought this would be simply a matter of letting the priest know that she knew, and giving him an opportunity to promise to stop..

Your analysis of the transfer makes sense - protection from the fallout. When I read your comments, I kept thinking about Jean's first attempts to get justice within the church. She was reassured and told they were all on the same page, until they weren't and withdrew their support. It's possible that Catherine felt the matter would be handled, agreed to the transfer thinking it was in her best interest, but the church was really just getting rid of her.

What keeps nagging me is why Maskell went to Catherine's house that night in the first place. Was he tipped off about the student's visit? Did he have plans to kill Catherine that night and did not because of the student being there? Was he trying to intimidate her, but she refused to back down, sealing her fate the next day? Or something else?


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[reintarnation]

September 1995 Doe v. Maskell MD Court of Appeals
(filed July 29, 1996)
http://law.justia.com/cases/maryland/court-of-appeals/1996/102a95-1.html

Other links for this or something similar in this thread weren't working for me. Admittedly, I did not search back far - I am somewhat new to the Cesnik case and this thread.

It was extremely helpful in understanding the legal arguments, court proceedings, and research about repressed memories. I learned a lot!

For me, it highlights the limitations of our justice system's necessary functions - regardless what the crime, no matter how apparent the injustice, the court is bound to uphold existing law and nothing more. Right or wrong, I can understand how the court decided not to move forward with this case given the information available at the time.

From cursory research, it appears to me that the psychological community now accepts the concept of repressed memory recovery as scientifically supported, if not proven. So as someone in the documentary noted, the case's outcome might be different today due to those changes.

"After reviewing the arguments on both sides of the issue, we are unconvinced that repression exists as a phenomenon separate and apart from the normal process of forgetting. Because we find these two processes to be indistinguishable scientifically, it follows that they should be treated the same legally. Therefore we hold that the mental process of repression of memories of past sexual abuse does not activate the discovery rule. The plaintiffs' suits are thus barred by the statue of limitations. If the General Assembly should wish the rewrite the law, that is its prerogative and responsibility." (page 13, Doe v. Maskell, 1996)

After that, the court cites extensive instances of legal precedence to bolster its judgment. This makes it abundantly clear that the court was unwilling to take unprecedented legal action, and that is exactly what Jane Doe's case required if it was to move forward. We are left debating whether that decision was right or wrong because what is morally right and legally right are not one in the same.

This analysis leaves me feeling unsettled, but any further curiosity will leave me debating the separation of church and state. In the end, even the most pragmatic systems have ethical gray tones. I believe Jane Doe was abused, I believe she legitimately repressed and recovered horrific memories, and I believe she deserves justice. Yet at the same time, I feel that our ideal justice system must strive to be consistent and fairly regulated to prevent ethical corruption, even in the face of cases like this.

Ok, I said I wasn't going down that rabbit hole!

I keep focusing on that last sentence in bold. I am stuck between two ways of interpreting this statement, either:
1 - The court imploring lawmakers to enact appropriate changes (they want this to move forward but believe their hands are tied by existing law) or
2 - The court distancing itself from responsibility (what more can we do?) and providing the public with an alternative scapegoat (lawmakers) for their outrage.

I am inclined to believe #2, but it seemed in the doc like public opinion was on Maskell's side, and the court's decision was met with general approval. In the end, maybe I am just being a nerd about legal argument! If you are into that sort of thing, you will also find this to be a fascinating read.

 

[KinderedSpirits]

Gemma Hoskins, the brave and amazing woman who is featured in the documentary, The Keepers, revealed that they have been investigating a crebible lead. She needs help tracking a specific person down.
You can get all the details in this podcast that was released last night. This is very interesting and worth a listen...especially for those of you who feel Edgar had a part in Sr. Cesnik's fate. If the link I have attached doesn't work, you can find the original post on the official keepers FB discussion page. Gemma Hoskins is very involved on that page, and available to answer specific questions.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/outoft...arch-for-kelly-the-box-girl#.WnYbTWH8R9U.link

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I'm relatively new to this case , so I hope you guys will bear with me if I seem cynical or ask very basic questions. One thing I have learned from my many years as a poster on WS is that , once you begin to sleuth a case on a very public forum (be it WS, Reddit, Facebook , etc. ) you begin to get tons of " leads " . Some are credible, far more are rabbit holes that will end up putting you in a place where you can no longer tell reality from fantasy and rumor. I recently watched The Keepers, and while much of the information was useful to me, I found ALOT of it to be nothing more than rabbit holes. I don't doubt that Father Maskell sexually abused children, but I'm also not convinced that he had anything to do with the murder of Cathy Cesnik.

Having said all that, what I would like to do is review this case from the perspective of someone who doesn't need to rely on the documentary for established facts of this case. For those of you who have studied this case in depth, can you point me to basic information that is not conjecture ? A credible timeline, autopsy reports, a basic "who's who ", things of that nature ?

 

[MattRandyMush]

Possible Nexus of Evil for the murders of Elizabeth Grace Montanye, Roseanne Sturtz, Diane Lynn Miller, Kimberly Bock - all in Baltimore. May also involve Heather Ann Porter and Cathy Cesnik. See video below!

https://youtu.be/IOg_6g-Iass

 

[MichelleH]

I just finished watching the documentary. Some of the questions I have do any of the suspects have any connection at all to Joyce Malecki? It occurs to me that if Father Maskell knew secrets from Billy Schmidt about his sexuality (because of a confession) he could have blackmailed Billy to move the body. Billy's brother and Ronald and Bob helped cover it up maybe they had secrets too that Father Maskell knew. Someone mentioned that Father Maskell had dinner often with Edgar Davidson's sister. I remember the sister had warned Edgar's fiance not to marry him that something was wrong with him.Perhaps Father Maskell knew Edgar hunted women. Since the Father was in a trusting position he knew a lot of secrets of people and could have used any one of them to do dirty work for him. It's just some thoughts I had.

 

[Spartygirl]

I just heard about this today while at lunch with friends and am watching the series now.
I can't wait to watch more and discuss here and was thrilled to find this case on here !!

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[woobieville]

I've leaned more towards LE because of the sexual abuse by LE officers along with the priest. The ones brother named Robert was an officer. Robert - Bob?

But I should note again I've only watched the first 3 episodes.

ETA - priests I'm sure heard rumors of others priests and they just got moved so I don't think there was a real threat by clergy it seems.

Good point! I was trying to figure out who brother bob could be!

 

[jennirv4967]

I am touched by this scandal (never knew until I watched the Documentary). One of my mom's best friends and next door neighbor was one of the women in The Keepers, who was molested by Fr. Maskell. She was abused by a family member as a younger child, the family wouldn't name names, but I do know the brother was sent away to another state for awhile. Fr. Maskell used the information to make her feel the abuse was her fault, and set her up to be molested. She knew Sr. Cathy, and had told her about the abuse, and even visited her at her apartment.

I too think that he was giving the girls drugs, the fact Sr Cathy noticed a dazed look, and his former secretary said he'd give her coca cola and she couldn't remember anything, just makes it even more plausible. My mother's friend never mentioned being drugged.

My aunt and uncle were married by Fr. Haskell at St. Clements. I asked her, and she said she could never point to anything, but she used to get the creeps around him. I think the fact she was out of school and not low-hanging fruit saved her from anything happening.

Luckily, by the time I went to St. Clement's in first grade, Maskell had stopped "assisting" at St. Clement's and moved to Anunciation, but that was only the year before I went there. St. Clements was K-8, so I'm sure he figured he hit the jackpot in being able to get the kids before they got too headstrong.

 

[jennirv4967]

From the protection the church got from LE, I don't doubt for a moment that Maskell purposely insinuated himself with as many LE agencies as possible to cover him, not just relying on his brother to keep him safe.

I also believe that LE and all the way up were involved. At some point, you'd think one good cop would report what he heard, and if it went so far as Priests and LE raping children, it would have been known by quite a few people.. But if the Church & LE were being protected, it wouldn't matter if they did because Sharon May wouldn't prosecute them. I believe she was either being blackmailed or paid off. Her answers to the questions Ryan White asked were too arrogant and practiced.

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

I attended CrimeCon this past weekend, and attended the two "The Keepers" sessions with Gemma Hoskins and Shane Waters. They were wonderful! Gemma and Shane had never publicly announced whom they thought killed Sister Cathy (she was told by Netflix not to do so, because then so many people would take it as fact). However, Gemma and Shane agreed to announce it to us at the end of the first session. They didn't know who the other had selected, either! I'll tell you at the end of this post.

Some info gleaned from their discussions and Q&A's, in no particular order:

They have a witness who claims Edgar and Maskell did know each other. They don't have proof yet that Edgar and Billy knew each other. Not to say they didn't, but can't prove it yet.

Sharon May (DA) - no one seems to know where she is now (the crowd literally sighed an "ugh" when her face showed up on the screen), they've heard rumors that she left the country; or is dead, or is sick somewhere. Can't track her down. Interesting, eh?

Does not believe, "knowing Cathy" that she wrote that letter that Koob states Cathy did. Just doesn't sound like a letter Cathy would ever have written.

Since the series came out, they've tracked down more info about the green stone necklace, and it is NOT a necklace that Cathy purchased.

Both Edgar and Billy's family members believe their uncle was involved, and don't know whether the two knew each other.

Gemma is now thinking this case is solvable, and that it's getting close. She hasn't been told, but enough has been said for her to mention that they're doing a good job working the case, and believes it's not going to be long.

Talked about how the survivors (close to 90 now, and they had 90 people stand up in the audience to let us visually see what 90 victims looks like), are only getting $10k-$25K for counseling, which doesn't go far. AOB won't offer more. Then, the lawyers get 29% of the settlement. So, Gemma's involved in promoting SurF, a .com page, to provide counseling $ to designated victim survivors.

Here it is:

Shane's choice - Edgar killed her
Gemma's choice - Billy killed her (thinks Billy was in love with Sister Cathy)
Yes, she believes it's all related to Maskell (she won't even refer to him as Father Maskell).............Remember, that's their OPINIONS, not fact.

I just watched her and sooooo respect her for who she is and what she's been doing to get the case solved, but also for what she's doing for the victims on an ongoing process. Talk about making a difference in people's lives!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I have no idea if any more discussion was moved but I am completely sad and a little nauseous after watching the keepers series on Netflix.
A few years back I started looking into the murder of Carol Ann Dougherty. She was murdered in a catholic church in Bristol, Pa. When I tell you how many people I reached out to and was given terse replies and told to leave it alone, It made me mad. But what I have realized is the Catholic church has been covering these things up so long, they have perfected it. It won't stop until someone is not afraid of these men disguised as spirtual leaders and stand up.

Back to Cathy, I wonder if they have tried to test the dna to Edgar or Billy. It wouldnt be that hard. It seems they have willing family participants that seem open to being helpful and may want to be tested. I want her family to have answers. And I think that possiblly, Joyce Maleckis death would be solved at the same time.

 

[jennirv4967]

Do we know if any of the women who came forward in the 90s, including Janes Doe and Roe, had regression therapy? I'm trying to get a sense of how many women remembered the abuse from the beginning, how many remembered spontaneously, and how many sought therapy to help them remember.

I know one of the victims. She didn't have regression therapy. She also had reason to be very afraid of Maskell, as he knew she was visiting Sr. Cathy, even after she'd transferred to the other school. If I was her, I'd have kept my mouth shut too. I think it was only after other people started speaking up that she felt safe, that and she knew he was dead and felt a bit of pressure ease off.

Maskell chose victims who were already "broken." The women interviewed all talked about how they went into confessional to talk about past abuses of them, and then Maskell cherry picked victims from that. As Maskell wound up serving as a confessioner/chaplain to almost every police unit in the city, county, and state, I'm thinking he cherry picked his LE & priest cohorts the same way....everyone had secrets.

The victim I know was abused as a child, and (as I only knew her as an adult) she always seemed a bit off/fragile/kinda not completely with it. She worked in a job where she was drug tested, so that wasn't it. But considering the multiple molestations, probable drugs given to her at the High School, the fear of Fr. Maskell..... I think it all got too much for her.

 

[Betty P]

I know one of the victims. She didn't have regression therapy. She also had reason to be very afraid of Maskell, as he knew she was visiting Sr. Cathy, even after she'd transferred to the other school. If I was her, I'd have kept my mouth shut too. I think it was only after other people started speaking up that she felt safe, that and she knew he was dead and felt a bit of pressure ease off.

Maskell chose victims who were already "broken." The women interviewed all talked about how they went into confessional to talk about past abuses of them, and then Maskell cherry picked victims from that. As Maskell wound up serving as a confessioner/chaplain to almost every police unit in the city, county, and state, I'm thinking he cherry picked his LE & priest cohorts the same way....everyone had secrets.

The victim I know was abused as a child, and (as I only knew her as an adult) she always seemed a bit off/fragile/kinda not completely with it. She worked in a job where she was drug tested, so that wasn't it. But considering the multiple molestations, probable drugs given to her at the High School, the fear of Fr. Maskell..... I think it all got too much for her.

Thanks for the insight. Do you also believe that Fr. Maskell was somehow involved in Sr Cesnik's murder?