Members' Theories

[KentuckyKaren]

OK, I have always been firmly in the BDI camp, and I still am, but the comment from MurriFlower (sorry, can't get it to pull up for some reason) along with something another poster mentioned on a separate forum (which I'll address later in this post) made me wonder... And I know this will all sound crazy at first but bear with me here...MurriFlower suggested "another" woman, and although that doesn't ring true at all with me, the possibility that entered my mind was whether PR could have been far more mentally ill than any of us know... What if she had Multiple Personality Disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder)?

I know it sounds craaaaazy, but just give me a minute... I have researched this disorder some, and while I'm not an expert, I know that the people who have it sometimes have personalities (called "alters") that are not even their same gender or age. And they are sometimes not even fully aware of what the others do. Strange, I know, and eerie, and creepy. Have you ever witnessed someone with this disorder "switch"? It is astonishing.

Anyway, this theory would explain the sexual stuff as more than just a cover-up (especially if it was a male alter) as well as the strange RN and also why PR as her "nice devoted mother" (primary alter) could vehemently deny it all, but JR and PR could somehow be covering for someone...

Lastly, a poster on another forum said that when PR was asked about her own history and whether there was sexual abuse in her past, she answered in a childlike manner that made the poster quite certain that she had indeed been sexually abused by her own father. Both the childlike response and the possibility of long-term sexual abuse would fit with the disorder.

I imagine some of you will dismiss this as ME being a lunatic gone off her rocker. Haha! And I'll be the first to admit, it IS a far-out theory. But I wonder if any of this is even a remote possibility? I honestly still lean toward BDI, because I would imagine investigators would have explored this theory and discarded it. And IF she did indeed have this disorder, I Imagine it would've come out in the extensive psych evals and interviews. But maybe the Ramseys were masterful at hiding it, and it's just so far out that no one thought of it. And we know there were lots of mistakes and oversights by LE.

I am not offended if you all poke giant holes in this theory-- that's what we all do and I love it! Like I said, it is super far out there. But once it occurred to me that this might be a bizarre possibility that could fit some of the pieces together, I thought it was worth mentioning on here.

 

[Meara]

OK, I have always been firmly in the BDI camp, and I still am, but the comment from MurriFlower (sorry, can't get it to pull up for some reason) along with something another poster mentioned on a separate forum (which I'll address later in this post) made me wonder... And I know this will all sound crazy at first but bear with me here...MurriFlower suggested "another" woman, and although that doesn't ring true at all with me, the possibility that entered my mind was whether PR could have been far more mentally ill than any of us know... What if she had Multiple Personality Disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder)?

I know it sounds craaaaazy, but just give me a minute... I have researched this disorder some, and while I'm not an expert, I know that the people who have it sometimes have personalities (called "alters") that are not even their same gender or age. And they are sometimes not even fully aware of what the others do. Strange, I know, and eerie, and creepy. Have you ever witnessed someone with this disorder "switch"? It is astonishing.

Anyway, this theory would explain the sexual stuff as more than just a cover-up (especially if it was a male alter) as well as the strange RN and also why PR as her "nice devoted mother" (primary alter) could vehemently deny it all, but JR and PR could somehow be covering for someone...

Lastly, a poster on another forum said that when PR was asked about her own history and whether there was sexual abuse in her past, she answered in a childlike manner that made the poster quite certain that she had indeed been sexually abused by her own father. Both the childlike response and the possibility of long-term sexual abuse would fit with the disorder.

I imagine some of you will dismiss this as ME being a lunatic gone off her rocker. Haha! And I'll be the first to admit, it IS a far-out theory. But I wonder if any of this is even a remote possibility? I honestly still lean toward BDI, because I would imagine investigators would have explored this theory and discarded it. And IF she did indeed have this disorder, I Imagine it would've come out in the extensive psych evals and interviews. But maybe the Ramseys were masterful at hiding it, and it's just so far out that no one thought of it. And we know there were lots of mistakes and oversights by LE.

I am not offended if you all poke giant holes in this theory-- that's what we all do and I love it! Like I said, it is super far out there. But once it occurred to me that this might be a bizarre possibility that could fit some of the pieces together, I thought it was worth mentioning on here.

Hi, Kentucky Karen. You've made some very good observations here, and I'm glad you've opened up the possibility that the murder may have taken place while the killer was in an altered state. It wouldn't be necessary for PR to have had DID, though, to construct an altered state theory. I myself don't think PR had DID. If she had, I believe it would have been noticed, and well before she turned 40 if it was a result of early sexual trauma. But, other conditions can produce temporary dissociative states, and impulse control disorders are another possibility. Kolar suggests that BR had SBP (pre-adolescent sexual behavior problems) and killed JB in a rage. I've wondered sometimes whether one of the parents had Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED) (ruling BR out on this one, since there's remorse after an episode).

 

[Meara]

My apologies for the above post. I forgot I was on the sticky thread. Mods/Admins, please feel free to remove it.

 

[KentuckyKaren]

Sorry if I goofed too-- didn't know the best forum to post this question on. Mine can be deleted also if necessary. I'm not a super sleuth yet, just a beginner. ;-)

 

[Duchess518]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, I am new as well.

I read somewhere that Patsy would get JBR up at midnight to go to the bathroom so she did not wet the bed. Except Christmas night? Because she was "zonked"? Patsy says everyone including JB, slept the whole night through. Why would you break your children's routine? If they did wake up they possibly would have found the intruder. (especially since we estimate JB's head blow in the 11:00 hour.) So maybe she said no one woke up BECAUSE they were already up. The kids were up and Burke hit his sister on the head. Patsy and John may not have realized what happened right away but at some point before 5:52am they did. it is my opinion that John did most of the dirty work. Patsy is the only one I have seen real emotion from. John and Burke seem very cold in every discussion. Curious to see what others think!

 

[No it's not]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, I am new as well.

I read somewhere that Patsy would get JBR up at midnight to go to the bathroom so she did not wet the bed. Except Christmas night? Because she was "zonked"? Patsy says everyone including JB, slept the whole night through. Why would you break your children's routine? If they did wake up they possibly would have found the intruder. (especially since we estimate JB's head blow in the 11:00 hour.) So maybe she said no one woke up BECAUSE they were already up. The kids were up and Burke hit his sister on the head. Patsy and John may not have realized what happened right away but at some point before 5:52am they did. it is my opinion that John did most of the dirty work. Patsy is the only one I have seen real emotion from. John and Burke seem very cold in every discussion. Curious to see what others think!

Great thought and welcome! I don't think Patsy broke her routine, especially since she knew (..?) there would be little time left for an early morning cleanup etc.. You brought up a very good point and it would go hand in hand with an additional thought I had regarding the ransom note.

I never quite understood the timing of the "tomorrow".."I will call you between..etc..tomorrow" aside from the in length discussed "tomorrow, that would never come" or " they intentionally confuse the call/ drop off of money in the ransom note, because they knew it would never happen" etc..

After what Duchess posted, I am wondering now, if the ransom note had been actually written very early following the death/murder of JBR. That could have been closer to 1am. However, then the re-staging may have happened due to some after-thoughts and the ransom note was now "delayed". Now, the "tomorrow" looks absurd. What I am saying is, was the initial plan for Patsy to "find" the ransom note, when routinely checking on JBR's bed wetting problem? But then they had to change the staging, because things would not add up? Now it had gotten way late - or early in the morning.

And yet, everyone was expecting the morning call (tomorrow??) after John was supposed to be at the bank prior to 8am yadda yadda..A major mistake..

-Nin

 

[PositiveLight]

Great thought and welcome! I don't think Patsy broke her routine, especially since she knew (..?) there would be little time left for an early morning cleanup etc.. You brought up a very good point and it would go hand in hand with an additional thought I had regarding the ransom note.

I never quite understood the timing of the "tomorrow".."I will call you between..etc..tomorrow" aside from the in length discussed "tomorrow, that would never come" or " they intentionally confuse the call/ drop off of money in the ransom note, because they knew it would never happen" etc..

After what Duchess posted, I am wondering now, if the ransom note had been actually written very early following the death/murder of JBR. That could have been closer to 1am. However, then the re-staging may have happened due to some after-thoughts and the ransom note was now "delayed". Now, the "tomorrow" looks absurd. What I am saying is, was the initial plan for Patsy to "find" the ransom note, when routinely checking on JBR's bed wetting problem? But then they had to change the staging, because things would not add up? Now it had gotten way late - or early in the morning.

And yet, everyone was expecting the morning call (tomorrow??) after John was supposed to be at the bank prior to 8am yadda yadda..A major mistake..

-Nin

This is also something that bothers me too in regards to the RN. Was tomorrow supposed to be Dec 26th or Dec 27th? If it was planned to be the latter, then maybe they thought they would have time to remove the body? But the cops on the scene didn't catch it and thought it meant Dec 26th? Maybe that's why they didn't over react when the call never came? "That wasn't part of the plan?"

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[Duchess518]

This is also something that bothers me too in regards to the RN. Was tomorrow supposed to be Dec 26th or Dec 27th? If it was planned to be the latter, then maybe they thought they would have time to remove the body? But the cops on the scene didn't catch it and thought it meant Dec 26th? Maybe that's why they didn't over react when the call never came? "That wasn't part of the plan?"

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If they planned it to be the latter and wanted to remove the body why call the cops then? Would they take the chance of leaving the body in the house?

I've read that fibers from JB's clothes were inside the suitcase under the window and a lot of people speculate that her body was in there and then John moved it during his absence on the morning of the 26th. But I've also read her body was in rigor and tests said she died on her back and wasn't moved (at least before rigor had set in). She could have been left on say the kitchen floor before they moved her to the basement?

Very good point about the note tho. Never thought about it! How about the date of the gravestone. Dec 25th. So we speculate that she received her head injury on dec 25th but strangulation and death was actually on the 26th. But who could know what time the chain of events started except the people that were there?

 

[No it's not]

If they planned it to be the latter and wanted to remove the body why call the cops then? Would they take the chance of leaving the body in the house?

I've read that fibers from JB's clothes were inside the suitcase under the window and a lot of people speculate that her body was in there and then John moved it during his absence on the morning of the 26th. But I've also read her body was in rigor and tests said she died on her back and wasn't moved (at least before rigor had set in). She could have been left on say the kitchen floor before they moved her to the basement?

Very good point about the note tho. Never thought about it! How about the date of the gravestone. Dec 25th. So we speculate that she received her head injury on dec 25th but strangulation and death was actually on the 26th. But who could know what time the chain of events started except the people that were there?

It is very possible they first planned to remove the body and hence (ha!) wrote the ransom note to have an alibi for later if seen by neighbors leaving the house ("looking for JBR" but not calling it in yet due to the instruction not to, then changing their minds etc.). Then time possibly got out of hand due to extensive staging/ re-staging. They now decided not to remove the body, but leave the ransom note as "explanation" for what happened.

I do speculate, that the blow possibly happened at around midnight and the garroting about 30 - 1 hr later, yes, the initial plan being PR finding the ransom note after checking for JBR (getting her to go to the bathroom, she is not there etc.). The ransom note offered quite some leeway IMO.

-Nin

 

[No it's not]

The only deadline they had was the trip early next morning and an airplane ready to go. They had to be done with everything by that time. And that did not work. So they decided not to remove JBR ( via big size attache aka suitcase..)IMO

-Nin

 

[PositiveLight]

It is very possible they first planned to remove the body and hence (ha!) wrote the ransom note to have an alibi for later if seen by neighbors leaving the house ("looking for JBR" but not calling it in yet due to the instruction not to, then changing their minds etc.). Then time possibly got out of hand due to extensive staging/ re-staging. They now decided not to remove the body, but leave the ransom note as "explanation" for what happened.

I do speculate, that the blow possibly happened at around midnight and the garroting about 30 - 1 hr later, yes, the initial plan being PR finding the ransom note after checking for JBR (getting her to go to the bathroom, she is not there etc.). The ransom note offered quite some leeway IMO.

-Nin

Haha and hence! I love using that phrase now! Yeah I think there was a lot of screw ups in the ransom letter. I swear if they hadn't been wealthy they would be under the jail. I really want to examine all the crime scene photos. Is there a good place to find all of them?

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[PositiveLight]

I would find it hard to imagine her in the suitcase. But if there was evidence that was found in suitcase supporting that then it is possible. Do you think maybe their initial plan was to remove her by suitcase as if it was luggage to load on plane and dump elsewhere maybe in another state? Then realizing she was already in rigor it was impossible to make her fit? Then they had to replan. I wonder too if John hid away evidence in the plane during the night. Possibly the murder weapon, duct tape etc. These are smart people but that doesn't mean mistakes weren't made. Remember JR was overheard making plans to leave the state after her body was found. Why was that so important? Their daughter had just been brutally murdered. Sorry for rambling. My mind is just thinking out loud. So many questions. I guess I need to take the time to look up all the evidence and thoroughly go through it and try to answer my own questions.
If I sound like I'm jumping from one thing to another is its how my thought process works. As I read others comments it brings more questions to light for me at least. I know the long time sleuths get tired of hearing newbies ask questions or be unfamiliar with certain aspects of the case. I get it. I appreciate any and all help. I just want to understand this case fully. Maybe tomorrow I will try to sit down and do my own research. One thing I do need is the picture of Burkes golf clubs. Someone posted that once for me but I'm struggling to find it now.

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[Duchess518]

I would find it hard to imagine her in the suitcase. But if there was evidence that was found in suitcase supporting that then it is possible. Do you think maybe their initial plan was to remove her by suitcase as if it was luggage to load on plane and dump elsewhere maybe in another state? Then realizing she was already in rigor it was impossible to make her fit? Then they had to replan. I wonder too if John hid away evidence in the plane during the night. Possibly the murder weapon, duct tape etc. These are smart people but that doesn't mean mistakes weren't made. Remember JR was overheard making plans to leave the state after her body was found. Why was that so important? Their daughter had just been brutally murdered. Sorry for rambling. My mind is just thinking out loud. So many questions. I guess I need to take the time to look up all the evidence and thoroughly go through it and try to answer my own questions.
If I sound like I'm jumping from one thing to another is its how my thought process works. As I read others comments it brings more questions to light for me at least. I know the long time sleuths get tired of hearing newbies ask questions or be unfamiliar with certain aspects of the case. I get it. I appreciate any and all help. I just want to understand this case fully. Maybe tomorrow I will try to sit down and do my own research. One thing I do need is the picture of Burkes golf clubs. Someone posted that once for me but I'm struggling to find it now.

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No worries about asking questions! We are all here to find the truth right?

The problem with this case is that the crime
Scene was so horribly mishandled/so many false stories were put out there that it's hard to distinguish truths from lies.

The phone call has a few "explanations". John Ramsey said that he wanted to take JBR to Georgia to bury her and he wanted to do it ASAP. (If this were me I'd have to be sedated from hysterics and not already planning a burial!). Another source is that he said he had an important meeting in Atlanta. Ok...but you were going to Michigan on Holiday. How are you going to be in two places at once (and again I think the murder of my child would cancel out any other plans!)

now it's time for a stupid question lol. The Ramsey's said they had an alarm system that they didn't activate that night. Wouldn't there be a way to analyze it to see if it WAS set? (You could probably do it with today's technology IDK about 20 years ago?) remember her death wasn't planned and they came up with the intruder story AFTER the fact so if they did set the alarm the intruder wouldn't have been able to get into the house.

 

[Mandala]

You are not alone in your theory. I believe it was an intruder that may have known the family. There was a large enough time window for an intruder to gain access and write the note before the Ramseys arrived home

There is no solid evidence of an intruder though. If you weigh up the facts, they unfortunately lead to the three people in the house that night, BR, JR and PR. I find it hard to comprehend myself.

 

[Duchess518]

I just came across an interview I found interesting. I'll post the link here (and hope it works!)

Patsy stated in a 1998 interview that she woke up sometime between 5:30-6:00am. She then stated she dressed, put her make up on, brushed her hair, got some more stuff ready for the trip, blah blah. In total she estimated the time from when she woke up to when she went downstairs and found the ransom note to be about 45 mins at the most an hour. So lets assume she woke up at 5:30. That would put her downstairs at the latest at 6:30. (earliest 6:10) Then there was about 10-15 minutes of reading the note, screaming for John, checking BR and JB's rooms before the 911 call was made. So at the latest that would be 6:45. (earliest 6:20) and these times would be later is she woke up later than 5;30. But remember the 9-11 call was made at 5:52AM. So....is it more likely that she was making up times or that she forgot what time the call was made/she got up/etc. PERSONALLY time would stand still if i found a note saying my daughter was kidnapped. I would know to the SECOND what time it was.....thoughts?

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[PositiveLight]

My working theory


If we are to go by the date on the headstone that she died on Christmas, there are basically two hours
from the time they arrived home to midnight. 10pm-12am.
The killer or the accomplice would have to know she died during this time to use that as her death date.
A person can't just put any death date on a tombstone.
Okay if we are working with two hours, a few things have to occur during these two hours. For these things
to happen, some or all of the family's story would be in question.


Bare with me here


JonBenet was in fact awake when they arrived home. Possibly the siblings were fighting with each other
during the ride home. Maybe BR had been brewing all day due to him not receiving what he felt he should
have for Christmas. Siblings will fuss in the car often. Any parent can agree to that. They were both
exhausted and tired from a long day too and I'm sure very irritable. But BR was VERY mad.


They arrive home and PR tries to calm BR down by fixing his favorite snack. Yet it's not working.
JonBenet wants some too and snatches a bite. BR gets very upset and JR takes him to another room to put
together a toy to try to diffuse the situation. Meanwhile PR is working on JonBenet's hair in the
kitchen placing it in the separate ponytails and JonBenet is resting her head on the pillow.
It's possible this pillow was always kept downstairs for the hair ritual. She already had a pillow on
her bed and the second pillow had a plain pillow case IIRC.


OR PR fixes the pineapple for BR and he fixes his warm tea to calm him. They continue to argue while
PR works on JonBenet's hair. He may have actually not cared if she ate some pineapple. It may not be
a big deal or the reason for anything. Except she did eat some prior to her death. PR asks JR to take
BR to play with a toy or something to get him out of her hair or again to diffuse the situation separating
the two kids.


At some point during this time, BR pokes JonBenet with the train tracks out of anger. She screams and
that is the scream the neighbors heard. The parents are still up and around them when it occurs.
The parents immediately turn the outside lights off and inside lights off to distract anyone that
heard the screams. "Oh it couldn't have came from their house because no one is home." The scream
could have been THAT bad. JonBenet is rushed to her room to separate them yet again. Mom with
JonBenet and Daddy with BR. Burke and him work on the toy a little longer while JR has a talk with
BR about his behavior. He takes him to bed with the flashlight and now that they are both separated,
the parents feel the situation has been resolved and they go to their bedroom.It's maybe
11pm by now. But the situation is not resolved and it's just getting started.
BR is still mad. JonBenet is in bed and BR sneaks in the room and hits her over the head with an
object or the flashlight that JR possibly left by his bed. Burke grabs some type of cord laying nearby
and wraps it around her neck to stop possible seizure activity from the injury to the brain. After
she stops moving, BR wants to check to confirm she's dead and pokes an object in her to see if she
reacts. Possibly prior to this night, JonBenet didn't like him to stick things in her. She does
bleed but Burke doesn't take notice due to it being dark. Since she didn't move with the pain test he
leaves the room to go back to his room with the deed done. PR isn't asleep
yet due to trying to throw together her clothes for the trip. She goes downstairs around 11:45pm to grab something
from another room and checks on JonBenet and finds her seemingly dead. It's only been possibly
45 minutes since the head wound. Maybe less. She freaks out and gets JR
and the staging begins. BR is threatened to keep his mouth shut and stay in his room or he will go to jail.
The parents are in agony and clean her up and redress her. JR is tasked with staging her body
downstairs in the wine cellar. They are unaware of the head wound and believe it is only a
strangulation. Unknown to both parents, JonBenet is still alive but just barely. They know that
they have to stage it to look like a strangulation and John uses a nearby ligature from Christmas
tree boxes. The parents are doing all of this in the dark with only flashlights to work with.
This is the reason many things are overlooked. When JR applies the final ligature to stage her
body, he can't look at her and do it. He turns her over to her tummy and applies the
ligature. What he fails to realize is this is the action that actually caused her death. Her
bladder releases on the carpet outside the wine cellar. By this point it's been almost
two hours since the initial head wound. He wraps her in her blanket and lays her on
one in a sign of remorse. He doesn't want her laying in that cold room without being covered up.
PR is busy writing the ransom note and John takes a look at it and doesn't like what he sees and
she starts over and he is dictating some of it to her helping her write it because she is so
upset. The flashlights are wiped down and left to dry possibly by the sink before being hidden.
Maybe they have another flashlight too. The one left by the sink is quickly forgotten as is the
bowl of pineapple. The parents not realizing either of the objects actual impact on the case.
With the lights out, the pineapple was probably completely overlooked since they didn't think
it even mattered to the murder. They spend what's left of the night getting the stories straight
and possibly getting rid of evidence. In the shuffle, the flashlight is forgotten and in their mind
it doesn't really matter too much anyway, having no clue BR actually hit JonBenet with it. They
simply wiped it down to go with the intruder theory that the intruder must have used the
flashlight as he used to the pen and paper. I think the drawers in JAR's room where PR stayed
during her chemo were left open because PR was getting gloves to use in the cover up.
The parents never went to bed that night. They spent the time staging and getting stories straight.
This is just speculation and possible theory of mine. Trying to work in the important pieces of
the crime. The parents knew she died on Christmas and NOT Boxing day because they found her body
before midnight and believed she was dead. They were only aware of the ligature strangulation and the
sexual penetration. So those are the parts that they thought had to be explained. It's
quite possible JR did all the dirty work while PR did the ransom book and freaked out going
"psycho" as BR put it. It's possible PR never saw the body after she cleaned it up and redressed her.
She may not have been able to look at her in the wine cellar and didn't see her again until
JR brought her upstairs later in the day. They didn't even know she had been cracked over the skull
until the autopsy.

ETA: Maybe JR was telling the truth about being in BR room using the binoculars. But not for the
reasons he stated. He wasn't looking for the kidnappers. He was watching to see if the cops
went to any of the neighbors to see if they heard or saw anything. Because JR is worried about two
possible things. Did they neighbors actually hear that horrible scream from JonBenet? and are the
cops checking the trashcans etc for evidence. This is the part that would worry JR the most.
Because this would be the part he couldn't control. What other people HEARD that night. So he was probably
very concerned about what the neighbors heard or witnessed.

 

[PositiveLight]

Can't edit my post but wanted to add the Autopsy report that stated a different date of death. In red

 

[Duchess518]

Can't edit my post but wanted to add the Autopsy report that stated a different date of death. In red

The date on the autopsy form is when her body was found/pronounced dead. Definetly not when she died. I've read that an estimated time of actual death is midnight/1am?

 

[TeaTime]

They decided on 12/25 for the headstone because they found her seemingly dead before midnight and it is more dramatic than 12/26.

 

[PositiveLight]

The date on the autopsy form is when her body was found/pronounced dead. Definetly not when she died. I've read that an estimated time of actual death is midnight/1am?

Oh I know! Hehe I was just saying it didn't even match. I agree with TT! It was for drama too plus I think they thought she was dead when they found her before midnight.

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